Tire hopping

[IndyMike]

I've noticed that the rear RE-040's are close to the replacement level, while the fronts still probably have another 20k miles left in them.

So I'm lining up the candidates for suitable replacement of the rears.

The stock rear setup is 255/35/18, and I'd like to continue with that same fitment for the replacements.

According to Tire Rack the following are possible choices:

BFGoodrich g-Force Sport $152
BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 $198
Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R $275
Bridgestone Potenza RE050A Pole Position $250
Bridgestone Potenza RE040 $275
Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Sport $184
Continental ContiSportContact 2 $250
Continental ContiSportContact 3 $257
Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec $229
Dunlop SP Sport Maxx $194
Dunlop Direzza DZ101 $167
General Exclaim UHP $159
Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric $224
Hankook Ventus S1 evo $183
Kumho Ecsta ASX $161
Michelin Pilot Sport $287
Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 $308
Pirelli PZero $288
Pirelli PZero Nero $235
Pirelli PZero Rosso $285
Sumitomo HTR Z III $169
Yokohama ADVAN Sport $224
Yokohama S.drive $173

Considering the fearsome pace I put on the stock tires in 5 years (I have just under 20k miles on the car) :rolleyes: I'd say that price is not a leading factor in my choice, and since it's ostensibly been reduced to weekend warrior status dry handling is paramount, but wet handling (rain) can't reek.

But that doesn't mean that value isn't a consideration. For example, while PS2's may be $308 and Kumho's $161 are the PS2's that vastly superior overall to justify paying $300 more for the pair?

Also, road noise needs to be within tolerable limits (at least to mid-life anyway). Oddball characteristics such as Tramlining (which the RE-040's are fierce for) etc, are low on the totem pole.

I'd prefer to go with Eagle F1 GS D3's, which I've been more than satisfied with on the Touring, but unfortunately they don't come in the stock rear fitment for the ZHP.

And I wouldn't be against the stock RE-040's again. In my experience they've exhibited great balance in all traits (other than the previously noted tramlining), which makes it an almost perfect choice for the ZHP.

However, I kind of want to try something new, and so right now I'm leaning towards either the F1 Asymmetric's or the Bridgestone RE-01R's.

But since I have some time before I need to hop on it I'm not committed to any choice at the moment.

Anyone have direct experience with either the Asymmetic's, RE-01R's or any of the other prospects on the above list?

[John V]

I've noticed that the rear RE-040's are close to the replacement level, while the fronts still probably have another 20k miles left in them.

So I'm lining up the candidates for suitable replacement of the rears.

The stock rear setup is 255/35/18, and I'd like to continue with that same fitment for the replacements.

According to Tire Rack the following are possible choices:

BFGoodrich g-Force Sport $152
BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 $198
Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R $275
Bridgestone Potenza RE050A Pole Position $250
Bridgestone Potenza RE040 $275
Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Sport $184
Continental ContiSportContact 2 $250
Continental ContiSportContact 3 $257
Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec $229
Dunlop SP Sport Maxx $194
Dunlop Direzza DZ101 $167
General Exclaim UHP $159
Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric $224
Hankook Ventus S1 evo $183
Kumho Ecsta ASX $161
Michelin Pilot Sport $287
Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 $308
Pirelli PZero $288
Pirelli PZero Nero $235
Pirelli PZero Rosso $285
Sumitomo HTR Z III $169
Yokohama ADVAN Sport $224
Yokohama S.drive $173


Yikes.

Of the above options, the Dunlop Z1 and Bridgestone RE-01R are in a different league in terms of dry grip. That said, supposedly the Dunlops are also great in the rain. I would probably try the Z1... but keep in mind that a sticky tire like that is going to be noisier on the road, tramline more, pick up more gravel...

I haven't liked any of the BFG tires I've ever had, so I'd skip them. I haven't liked any of the Michelins I've ever had, so I'd skip them as well. The Hankook is a tempting option given the price. The Kumho ASX is really not up to the dry grip or feel standards as the rest of the tires there. Same with the Sumi HTR-Z.

My vote is for the Star Specs :)

[IndyMike]

Yikes.

Of the above options, the Dunlop Z1 and Bridgestone RE-01R are in a different league in terms of dry grip. That said, supposedly the Dunlops are also great in the rain. I would probably try the Z1... but keep in mind that a sticky tire like that is going to be noisier on the road, tramline more, pick up more gravel...

I haven't liked any of the BFG tires I've ever had, so I'd skip them. I haven't liked any of the Michelins I've ever had, so I'd skip them as well. The Hankook is a tempting option given the price. The Kumho ASX is really not up to the dry grip or feel standards as the rest of the tires there. Same with the Sumi HTR-Z.

My vote is for the Star Specs :)

Thanks for the response JV. I'd never heard of this tire before today, but here's what Tire Rack says about it:

The Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec is Dunlop's Extreme Performance Summer tire developed for serious sports car, sports coupe and performance sedan enthusiasts looking for race tire-like traction on the street or for use in autocross, drifting and track events. The Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec is for drivers who don’t want to wait as long for their tires to come in during initial runs, as well as drivers of lighter weight vehicles who are often confronted with the task of working tire temperatures up to the point of generating peak grip.

What We Liked: We liked it all – handling, dry grip and especially wet traction
(On a Scale of 1 to 10)
What We'd Improve: A small improvement in ride quality
Ride Comfort7.15
Conclusion: A new Extreme Performance Summer star is born
Noise Comfort7.2
Latest Test Rank: 1st
Dry Track8.64
Previous Test Rank: Not previously tested
Wet Track7.57

Overall7.8

I'll need to look into this tire a bit more, including the TR's reviews on it.

At $229 per tire it's at a decent price point, too.

[Nick M3]

Thanks for the response JV. I'd never heard of this tire before today, but here's what Tire Rack says about it:

The Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec is Dunlop's Extreme Performance Summer tire developed for serious sports car, sports coupe and performance sedan enthusiasts looking for race tire-like traction on the street or for use in autocross, drifting and track events. The Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec is for drivers who don’t want to wait as long for their tires to come in during initial runs, as well as drivers of lighter weight vehicles who are often confronted with the task of working tire temperatures up to the point of generating peak grip.

What We Liked: We liked it all – handling, dry grip and especially wet traction
(On a Scale of 1 to 10)
What We'd Improve: A small improvement in ride quality
Ride Comfort7.15
Conclusion: A new Extreme Performance Summer star is born
Noise Comfort7.2
Latest Test Rank: 1st
Dry Track8.64
Previous Test Rank: Not previously tested
Wet Track7.57

Overall7.8

I'll need to look into this tire a bit more, including the TR's reviews on it.

At $229 per tire it's at a decent price point, too.
It's currently one of the hot tires for Street Tire class autocrossing. It fits your bill.

...but just buying a pair of them for the rear will probably significantly increase understeer.

[IndyMike]

It's currently one of the hot tires for Street Tire class autocrossing. It fits your bill.

...but just buying a pair of them for the rear will probably significantly increase understeer.
Good point.

I really hate to have to fork out for a set of fronts when the existing Bridgestone's have lots of tread life left, but I just noticed this additional note about the Star Spec on the TR site:

NOTE: The Tire Rack recommends installing Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec tires in sets of four to fully realize the benefits of the Star Spec tread compound. While the Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec can be mixed with its predecessor in axle pairs if necessary, it is recommended that the treads be shaved to the equivalent tread depth of the existing tires.

Like heck if I'm gonna shave about half of it off so it matches the fronts.

If I just go with the Star Spec rears and keep the front Stoners is there anything I can do to counteract the increased understeer (e.g. playing with tire pressure, etc.)?

[Nick M3]

Good point.

I really hate to have to fork out for a set of fronts when the existing Bridgestone's have lots of tread life left, but I just noticed this additional note about the Star Spec on the TR site:

NOTE: The Tire Rack recommends installing Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec tires in sets of four to fully realize the benefits of the Star Spec tread compound. While the Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec can be mixed with its predecessor in axle pairs if necessary, it is recommended that the treads be shaved to the equivalent tread depth of the existing tires.

Like heck if I'm gonna shave about half of it off so it matches the fronts.

If I just go with the Star Spec rears and keep the front Stoners is there anything I can do to counteract the increased understeer (e.g. playing with tire pressure, etc.)?
Not really. I mean, I guess you could massively overinflate them. The Star Specs are part of a class of tires that are intended to be as absolutely close as possible to r-compounds without the need for a DOT-R certification. You want a lower grip tire if you're just buying a pair.

[ff]

You want a lower grip tire if you're just buying a pair.

I'm the opposite of what you'd call an expert on tires. But that's the answer I would've given too. Just seems like common sense that you'd want the front and rear tires to provide roughly the same amount of grip (well, ignoring the safety factors that prompt carmakers to design their cars to understeer).

[JST]

The Star Specs are part of a class of tires that are intended to be as absolutely close as possible to r-compounds without the need for a DOT-R certification.

And for that reason, I'd really look at something else for a casually driven street car.

[dan]

I'd go with the Sumitomo. Cheap, and it's not like you're going to the track/autoX with it. Heck, it's only a ZHP :D

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=93

[IndyMike]

And for that reason, I'd really look at something else for a casually driven street car.
Well, I wouldn't say I drive "casually, but since I think you mean for non-HP or Auto-X events you are correct. :)

I might be nuts, but that doesn't mean I'm crazy. :D This tire is probably beyond anything I would ever come close to being able to challenge on public roads.

I imagine if I had a 135 and wanted to ditch the RFT's the Star Specs would be a decent match.

But for the two tire swap maybe it's best if I just went with Asymmetrics or RE-O1R.

Sorry for the waffling, but I've never had to replace two tires before. With the exception of the extreme-weight-over-the-front-wheels Escape the wear bars are usually pretty even for my rigs.

So this is new territory for me.

I might even just decide to go for a 4 tire swap and be done with it.

I'm sure before too long this thread will be forced to be moved to the Perseverator's Forum. ;)

[JST]

I'd go with the Sumitomo. Cheap, and it's not like you're going to the track/autoX with it. Heck, it's only a ZHP :D

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=93

Meh. I really didn't care for the Sumitomos I put on my old M3. Impossible to balance and they got very greasy very quickly.

[John V]

Every sumitomo I've encountered has a very soft sidewall which makes them feel mushy. Not pleasant to drive on.

I misread your initial post and assumed you were replacing all four. I'd go with the same as you have on the front (and check your rear alignment - why are they worn out already if the fronts are OK?)

[clyde]

But for the two tire swap maybe it's best if I just went with Asymmetrics or RE-O1R.

I might even just decide to go for a 4 tire swap and be done with it.


I'd suggest staying away from the tires that are aimed at autocrossers (RE-01R and Star Specs....maybe the Yoko Advan, but I can't remember off the top of my head the one you listed is the one I'm thinking of).

They will have more dry grip than you'll know what to with on the street (so long as they're warm), but you may be dissapointed with the handling at even higher than street speeds. Where they may start feeling good is well beyond what you're probably going to do on the street. Of course, handling is very subjective, so who knows.

They will also be noisey, quick wearing, lose their wet grip faster than you may expect as they wear, tramline, ride harder, and they may be more suspectible to road damage. They will absolutely suck when it's cold out. Add wet to the cold, and be careful.

All that said, if you go with a set of those kinds of tires, you'll probably be happier if you do all four than just the two.

[equ]

I've had the michelin PS and the bridgestone re040 on the zhp. There were two big advantages of the michelins..
1. No more tramlining (but this is more driven by fronts)
2. Much better ride

They were different enough that I'd be leery of mixing them F/R even if they are the same performance category.

I really hate the bridgestone square profile and stiff sidewall ride. They just don't work in the roads in/around NYC.

[equ]

So to sum up, if you're buying just rears, stick to b-stone. Keep the re040 or get sth very close to it (050 or 760), don't get an all-season.

If replacing all 4, I'd recommend goodyear f1 asymm (no personal experience but good reviews), any michelin pilot (ps1 or ps2, ps1 may be better all around, not as cold sensitive) or if going all-season, the pirelli p-zero nero M+S.

[IndyMike]

I misread your initial post and assumed you were replacing all four. I'd go with the same as you have on the front (and check your rear alignment - why are they worn out already if the fronts are OK?)
Probably a combination of reasons.

I think my tire pressures are probably a bit high in the rear as the center is wearing unevenly with the sides. That, and I just think that the RWD nature of this car tends to smoke the rears quicker than the fronts.

Then again maybe it's just my driving style. There have been a few instances where I spun the rears, especially recently in this earlier than normal cold weather we've experienced.

Why the fronts are so good amazes me as well. Supposedly there's a minor bit of negative camber to the stock front ZHP setup, so maybe that'a bit of a factor plus I keep the pressure pretty close to recommendations.

[IndyMike]

I'd suggest staying away from the tires that are aimed at autocrossers (RE-01R and Star Specs....maybe the Yoko Advan, but I can't remember off the top of my head the one you listed is the one I'm thinking of).

They will have more dry grip than you'll know what to with on the street (so long as they're warm), but you may be dissapointed with the handling at even higher than street speeds. Where they may start feeling good is well beyond what you're probably going to do on the street. Of course, handling is very subjective, so who knows.

They will also be noisey, quick wearing, lose their wet grip faster than you may expect as they wear, tramline, ride harder, and they may be more suspectible to road damage. They will absolutely suck when it's cold out. Add wet to the cold, and be careful.

All that said, if you go with a set of those kinds of tires, you'll probably be happier if you do all four than just the two.
Yeah, the more I ruminate about this, the more comfortable I think I'll be with a whole set of 4.

It's not like I go through a set every year or two.

[Rob]

I have never had any set of tires wear out at the same rate unless I could rotate them. The wheels with power always wear out faster. :dunno:

[John V]

I never rotated the tires on my E36 M3 and they wore normally. I suspect the problem is the amount of rear toe BMW specs from the factory. My M3 was aligned to have very little rear toe, so I never had wear issues. My RX-7 was the same way. All four wore at the same rate.

The Boxster killed rears at about twice the rate of fronts, but there's no weight up front and I like to get the rear working in corners.

Upon further thought, I think Clyde is right. Avoid the super high grip tires.

Having driven on PS2s a few times, I'm not impressed with them for the money. They're good, but they're not "twice as good as something comparable" good. I have Yoko's (Avid H4's) on the Altima and the Jetta and I love them, and even though they're a different type of tire altogether from what you're looking at it would motivate me to try one of the Yokohama offerings.

[Biggins]

I have the said Dunlops in 225/50/16 on my car in the fall/spring/summer and love them. They are very sticky, not terribly noisy, and have been great in the rain. I'm a street touring autocrosser, so they've fit the bill for me. As much as I love them, I wouldn't really recommend them unless you're doing track and autocross events throughout the summer.

I don't have any on your list to recommend with first-hand experience. If you had the option of the Kumho SPT or Hankook Ventus RS-2, I'd recommend those.

[Rob]

Now you have me wondering . . . I wore through the back tires in the e36 M3 twice as fast as the fronts, just like always. Ditto for the 330i, the CTS-V, 240 SX, the 328 (although it wasn't twice as fast in that car) . . . maybe it's me. The M3 was the only one with modified suspension.

[John V]

Well the CTS-V I can kind of understand.

It's the toe. The fact that the first thing I do on most of my cars* is take out all the toe apparently has nice tire-wear benefits in addition to the (intended) understeer removal.










*Haven't done this to the Z06 yet and don't intend to. Yeeeeeeooow.

[Rob]

I always just assumed it was b/c they were the wheels that were powered. The same thing is true on my bicycle - the back tire wears twice as fast as the front. I suppose it could be weight for the bike if it's alignment for the cars.

[Nick M3]

I never rotated the tires on my E36 M3 and they wore normally. I suspect the problem is the amount of rear toe BMW specs from the factory. My M3 was aligned to have very little rear toe, so I never had wear issues. My RX-7 was the same way. All four wore at the same rate.

The Boxster killed rears at about twice the rate of fronts, but there's no weight up front and I like to get the rear working in corners.

Upon further thought, I think Clyde is right. Avoid the super high grip tires.

Having driven on PS2s a few times, I'm not impressed with them for the money. They're good, but they're not "twice as good as something comparable" good. I have Yoko's (Avid H4's) on the Altima and the Jetta and I love them, and even though they're a different type of tire altogether from what you're looking at it would motivate me to try one of the Yokohama offerings.
I've had Avid H4s and V4s - they are a hell of a tire for what they are.

[IndyMike]

I've had Avid H4s and V4s - they are a hell of a tire for what they are.
I haven't run any Yoko (O No!) since I replaced the stock Pirelli's on my 91 318is with A008's twice way back when. Might have been the best tires for the money I've ever experienced. Only downside was they didn't last very long. 10 - 15k maybe, and poof, they were gone. All 4 at about the same time.

Are the H4's and V4's similarly poofable?

[Nick M3]

I haven't run any Yoko (O No!) since I replaced the stock Pirelli's on my 91 318is with A008's twice way back when. Might have been the best tires for the money I've ever experienced. Only downside was they didn't last very long. 10 - 15k maybe, and poof, they were gone. All 4 at about the same time.

Are the H4's and V4's similarly poofable?
No. The V4s were amazing - they were my street tires on the 323. They came with the car with however many miles on them, and withstood 10K of 4-5 degrees of negative camber up front along with AGGRESSIVE toe settings before I gave them away after the car was deregistered.

Edit: They are all seasons. They aren't what I'd choose for your situation.

[IndyMike]

So to sum up, if you're buying just rears, stick to b-stone. Keep the re040 or get sth very close to it (050 or 760), don't get an all-season.

If replacing all 4, I'd recommend goodyear f1 asymm (no personal experience but good reviews), any michelin pilot (ps1 or ps2, ps1 may be better all around, not as cold sensitive) or if going all-season, the pirelli p-zero nero M+S.
While TR lists AS as well as dedicated snows for this fitment, I didn't include them in the list since I have no interest in them.

If the weather even looks like there's any condensation in the forecast (especially in the winter months), I don't even consider driving it. For one thing I'm a bit OCD and keep it looking immaculate at all times. If it goes through any condensation I've been known to hose it down (even in a downpour) in the driveway, and dry it off in the garage.

So I'll use either the R32 or the frau's Sportwagon in wet weather.

A part of me would like to get the PS1's, but only for nostalgic reasons. Everytime I lost the tire lottery and either wound up with ContiSportContacs, Dunlops or the Bridgestone's.

Plus PS1's have the coolest tread design (I know, stupid reason for buying a performance tire), closely followed by the Eagle F1's.

But if you're going to fork over that much ($286), you might as well up the ante and get the better PS2's for only $20 more per tire.

[Sharp11]

I agree with equ, if you're not going to replace all four, why experiment with a different brand? You won't realize the benefit unless going to an all four-tire swap (it would seem).

Just get the same model as on the front (or as close to it as possible).

Ed

[equ]

I've had the ps1's on the zhp and have the ps2's on the cayman. Both times, the tires suited the application well. The ps1's ride felt great after the re040's.

My ownership being not completely back to back, the main difference I feel between the ps1 and ps2's are that the ps1's are more everyday friendly and generally fine in cold, dry conditions. The ps2's need 10miles/20minutes to get heat into them, they don't even ride right before this. My previous cayman garage was not heated and this made it worse, I could easily get a bit sideways just coming out of the lot. Now that the car is kept at 50F, things are a bit better. Not sure if you go to the track, this high temperature affinity of the ps2 might be of benefit there. The ps1 is slightly more 3-season friendly.

[lupinsea]

Don't have much experience with the different tires but . .

I've been really really impressed with the PS1s we have on our ZHP. It's what the car came with (new) when we bought it as CPO from the BMW dealer and had it shipped out to us.

We got about 40K+ miles out of the set. And despite the rear tires having the power they wore pretty evenly. I swapped out the rears first, then the front tires about 2,000 miles later (~6 weeks). The PS1s were replaced with the same PS1s since I was very pleased with their performance.

In our wet weather in the NW I've been VERY surprised at their wet grip. And in the dry I haven't noticed any weird handling issues.

The only thing I don't like about the tires is the price. But otherwise, they seem pretty good.

I was thinking about the PS2s but given how well the PS1s worked out for me and the type of driving I do I didn't really see a benefit to stepping up to the PS2s . . . and it save ~$80 on the set of tires. And now that I hear about their cold issues I'm extra glad I stuck with the PS1s.

Are they worth the $$$ over some of the other tires? Don't know, as I say, no basis for personal comparison.

[IndyMike]

Don't have much experience with the different tires but . .

I've been really really impressed with the PS1s we have on our ZHP. It's what the car came with (new) when we bought it as CPO from the BMW dealer and had it shipped out to us.

We got about 40K+ miles out of the set. And despite the rear tires having the power they wore pretty evenly. I swapped out the rears first, then the front tires about 2,000 miles later (~6 weeks). The PS1s were replaced with the same PS1s since I was very pleased with their performance.

In our wet weather in the NW I've been VERY surprised at their wet grip. And in the dry I haven't noticed any weird handling issues.

The only thing I don't like about the tires is the price. But otherwise, they seem pretty good.

I was thinking about the PS2s but given how well the PS1s worked out for me and the type of driving I do I didn't really see a benefit to stepping up to the PS2s . . . and it save ~$80 on the set of tires. And now that I hear about their cold issues I'm extra glad I stuck with the PS1s.

Are they worth the $$$ over some of the other tires? Don't know, as I say, no basis for personal comparison.
Appreciate the PS1 testimonials Lup & equ.

I'm 98.778787% sure I'm going the PS1 route. The fronts go for $217, so about $1k for the set.

I'll see if Discount Tire will match the TR price, which in the past has never been an issue.

[Sharp11]

Appreciate the PS1 testimonials Lup & equ.

I'm 98.778787% sure I'm going the PS1 route. The fronts go for $217, so about $1k for the set.

I'll see if Discount Tire will match the TR price, which in the past has never been an issue.

I think I have P1's on my ZHP as well (perhaps equ remembers, I'm too lazy to go down to the garage and unwrap them [stored for winter] to look).

If so, they've been great :) Good in the wet, fantastic ride, reasonably quiet and they seem to be wearing quite well with 16,500 miles on them.

[equ]

You do. Great for anything but track I think...

[lupinsea]

You do. Great for anything but track I think...

Oh, that reminded me. . .

When I was playing with the ZHP on Angeles Crest Highway they seemed to feel a bit "greasy" after about 30-45 min of driving. :eeps:

Apart from that, they've been awesome. And that I think was only due to the prolonged, um, fun driving conditions and lack of any traffic or law enforcement . . .

http://homepage.mac.com/jgreening/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2005-08-24%2000.28.37%20-0700/Image-89477BC8146E11DA.jpg




.

[Josh (PA)]

We put PS2s on our e36 M3c right after we bought it about 2 years ago. They have been far and away the best tires I've ever had. They have great dry grip, amazing in the wet, they're pretty quiet and best of all I'll easily get another summer season out of them (probably make 40k miles). I'd highly recommend them.

[IndyMike]

And the winner is.............................Stoner RE-040.

Since I've decided only to replace the rear two, and hence stay with the stock package.

Mostly for economic reasons, because I might sell it this spring and don't fancy buying 8 tires in a short period of time after swapping out RFT's on the potential replacement.

But even if I wind up keeping it, other than the tramlining problem I have no issues with the RE-040. It's a well-balanced tire, which fits the same nature of the ZHP.