Test drives (awd, daily) [Archive]

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equ

04-29-2007, 09:20 AM

As cool as the e39 528 is, I'm going to sell it. A day of driving yesterday helped confirm the fact.
1. Not nimble/sporty enough.
2. Seat is getting to me in this car as well. (Even with 14-way & lumbar) The zhp seat with no lumbar was actually better.
3. It will be up for maintenance in the coming year.
I will miss its awesome highway experience. Substantial, high mpg and whisper quiet.

a4 2.0T: This was the car I had found a very good deal on. I drove it properly and ended up passing on it. While peppy and spunky, it's just a bit slow. Around town, it feels fast due to gearing but generally it's not even much faster than my 528. It does feel less boaty than the 5er when pushed but this one also was lacking sport suspension. So off the bat, I was looking at chipping & suspension. Perhaps I need to drive a "worked" 2.0T to decide, but so far I'm underwhelmed.

328xi: Found one with sport seats and premium. I was not really fair to it originally. It's much much better to drive than my e39. It's really quite good and miles ahead of the e46xi's. Very competent. I doubt x-drive is as good as quattro but the car is more balanced and also faster. However, it is also overpriced for what I need (this highly optioned one was 50% more than the a4 2.0T :eek: ) The only real complaints are virtual ones. The interior is underwhelming but ok. The car, like the other e9x's I've tested, is a little removed and so faultless that it feels a bit soul-less. Feels like bmw finally made an appliance a la Honda/Toyota. 335xi might make a great daily, I might check out 330xi's just for kicks...

And now for the top two contenders:

Legacy GT Spec.B: Their prices are down to saner levels (invoice). As I said before, I'm really impressed. Fuji Heavy went out and fixed almost all that was wrong.
PROS:
- Light weight (compared to audis at least)
- Nice, airy interior, great visibility
- Good back seat.
- Good ride (better than audi)
- Much faster than 2.0T (and lighter)
- Great shifter, clutch (shifter from STI, I hear)
- Great pedal placement (downshifts !)
- Aux input, rear diff, folding back seat, touch nav all there
- 6th cog nice for hwy cruising though not powerful enough for avoiding shifts
CONS:
- Back looks like a camry (the horror) but I don't care.
- Bilstein schmilstein this car is still too soft. It leans a good bit so just when your perfect downshift is about to rocket you out of the corner you notice that you're listing like a ship. Needs shocks, sways, stuff. :dunno:
- Some stumbling/nonlinearity in high throttle. I think it happened at both 50-80% and at WOT (though worse in the former). Played with the SI gimmick a bit and it seemed to help a bit but I'm not sure. I really don't see the point of different throttle maps in this car, but whatever...
- Biggest con... Seat comfy but pillowy soft. Not sure if my back will be ok on such soft soft seats.

I can get over the suspension. Aftermarket could fix or I can live with it - it's like a base a4 in softness. I need to research the hesitation, that's a bit annoying but even that might be ok. The seat worries me so I'll spend a lot of time sitting in it at the dealer.

Audi S4: The 2004's are down to reasonable prices so I decided to drive one again. I was really blown away by this car. Last time I had driven it I was looking for a very sporty experience and it had failed. This time I'm looking for an awd daily that can handle and provide a bit of fun and the s4 is clearly the epitome for answering this need. For someone who has a 2-seater and likes skiing, it kicks bmw's butt left, right & center.

PROS
- Engine! It is still a bit cammy (more so than the porsche 3.4 e.g) but it really pulls above 3500. I don't have a lot of v8 experience, but man, they're sth else.
- Sound! Very nice engine sound, found myself going to redline just to hear it. It has also turbine-like winding down when you're off it like the porsche.
- Seats! Those recaros are some of the best in the business (with the e9x sport/prem a close second)
- Handling. When compared to m3's, lighter zhp's, rx-8's it had failed. Today, when compared to a4's, xi's, and legacys. It kicked ass. Decent ride but firm, beefy suspension. Barely leans compared to the others. Just right for every day.
- Shifter and clutch are ok - no worse than e9x and probably better.
- Steering feedback is low but it is quite precise (more so than legacy)

CONS
- Don't like the b6 look on the sedan so may have to find an avant.
- Small & dark inside after legacy, not the best visibility
- Revs a bit on the hwy - perhaps the car I was in was not stock. :dunno:
- Feels like a bit of overkill - driving around in a v8 for a daily. Worried that it will make me enjoy the cayman less.

Heavy on paper but great as a daily - at this point this is the leader. I like the subie as well - as it's quite involving - and it's not really a fair comparison. However, I can only consider the 07+ SpecB's (due to better shifter, folding seats, aux input - all important things to me). Hence the price puts me in used s4 territory. Not fair to the subie as the s4 is in a different class and had the m3 on its sights when built.

rumatt

04-29-2007, 10:35 AM

Wow, you take your waffling very seriously! :yikes: :D

Somehow the leading candidates don't excite me. I guess I'd take the scoobie because I'd treat it more like an appliance for my DD, and be less worried that it would break than the S4. I'm not sure whether that's rational.

One basic questions for you about your objection to the E39: "Not nimble/sport enough." Can't you drive the cockster when you're tired of the E39? One of the advantages of having two cars is that you can make them be different so you cover a wider range of automotive needs. Alternating back and forth reminds you why you appreciate the strengths of the other. If the two cars become too similar, it just makes you question why you have two cars (at least for me).

Sharp11

04-29-2007, 10:43 AM

lemming

04-29-2007, 11:17 AM

equ

04-29-2007, 11:42 AM

Somehow the leading candidates don't excite me. I guess I'd take the scoobie because I'd treat it more like an appliance for my DD, and be less worried that it would break than the S4. I'm not sure whether that's rational.

One basic questions for you about your objection to the E39: "Not nimble/sport enough." Can't you drive the cockster when you're tired of the E39? One of the advantages of having two cars is that you can make them be different so you cover a wider range of automotive needs. Alternating back and forth reminds you why you appreciate the strengths of the other. If the two cars become too similar, it just makes you question why you have two cars (at least for me).

Good points. The subie does feel way more every day than the S4 (which while no porsche or M stil reminds you that it's something special). That's the leading argument for the subie.

I just can't stand the e39 anymore. Simple as that - while that's how I convinced myself that they covered different spectra, the 5er is cumbersome around NYC and not the utmost in the winter. I'm willing to give up some hwy comfort for awd & nimbleness.

equ

04-29-2007, 11:48 AM

Equ,

My guess is the Subaru's not going to be satisfactory for you on long trips, especially the seats, which after two hours are mighty uncomfortable (for me at least).

Also, Subaru only this year added a tilt and telescoping wheel - previous years are tilt only. This makes it hard, again at least for me, to find a good driving position.

Ed

I was waiting for you to chime in about the seats, Ed. The word of mouth for people with bad backs is pretty negative on legacies (some canadian dude on bimmerfest went to LGT and back to xi's because of the seats and a friend at work complains about legacy seats). While I haven't sat on them enough to get uncomfortable, I frankly prefer the seats of base imprezas that were at least firm to begin with.

The driving position is fine on the 07. (I'm only considering 07 due to the updates). This really is the clincher, suspension can be changed. Nonlinear throttle can be ignored, chipped whatever...

equ

04-29-2007, 11:51 AM

facing the same conundrum myself, but with a higher emphasis on fuel efficiency, i'm happy to wait.

by then i'd have a feel for the new WRX now on the legacy chassis and/or the new Evo as well as the Mark VI Golf --the Mark V is too piggy and bloated for me and i also know it's to be very short-lived.

waiting won't hurt here. this summer and fall you won't really need AWD and by then more new vehicles in the segment should be out. right now if a pretty dead period.

I guess we're traveling in opposite directions, I'll make sure to use the gas you'll be saving :) . I had a realistic 25mpg hwy minimum requirement on my dailies up to now.

Do you need/want awd? If so, I'm going to recommend a chipped 2.0T (they are still 30ish and with ok torque). I should probably drive one before I recommend it.

lemming

04-29-2007, 12:01 PM

I guess we're traveling in opposite directions, I'll make sure to use the gas you'll be saving :) . I had a realistic 25mpg hwy minimum requirement on my dailies up to now.

Do you need/want awd? If so, I'm going to recommend a chipped 2.0T (they are still 30ish and with ok torque). I should probably drive one before I recommend it.

hey there, 'qu.

i'm pretty much set on getting a new Mini Cooper S to commute to/from work in this summer (late) or even fall, i think.

if that might even be a vert. and then it'd not be mine anymore. i'd get stuck driving the FX to work everyday.

:dunno:

least, 'til the snow falls. then i'd be driving the Mini again to/from work. :lol:

Sharp11

04-29-2007, 12:42 PM

if that might even be a vert.

Now you're talking!:thumbup:

Ed

lemming

04-29-2007, 12:45 PM

Now you're talking!:thumbup:

Ed

my arm is being heavily twisted.

and i suppose that i don't really care as long as it's nominally fun to drive and gets decent fuel economy.

more than i can say for some dang Prius.

Sharp11

04-29-2007, 12:56 PM

my arm is being heavily twisted.

and i suppose that i don't really care as long as it's nominally fun to drive and gets decent fuel economy.

more than i can say for some dang Prius.

We have a friend who bought one - it's a blast to drive, you'll love it - go cart handling, slick gearbox :thumbup:

On another note, I'm getting tremendous enjoyment from my 330 ZHP Vert - this car totally rocks! The warm days are here and this thing, top down, is simply a pleasure - the short throw box, perfectly weighted steering (and feedback), superb ride/handling balance - I'm loving it, dare I say, more than the Z4? There I said it :lol:

Ed

Sharp11

04-29-2007, 03:04 PM

I was waiting for you to chime in about the seats, Ed. The word of mouth for people with bad backs is pretty negative on legacies (some canadian dude on bimmerfest went to LGT and back to xi's because of the seats and a friend at work complains about legacy seats). While I haven't sat on them enough to get uncomfortable, I frankly prefer the seats of base imprezas that were at least firm to begin with.

The driving position is fine on the 07. (I'm only considering 07 due to the updates). This really is the clincher, suspension can be changed. Nonlinear throttle can be ignored, chipped whatever...

I find myself adjusting with the power seat controls quite a bit. I sat in an 07 Outback at the car show, it did seem more comfortable (and you have to figure the seat had been abused by thousands of asses, some probably pretty large) - it also had the tilt/telescoping wheel (new for 07).

Throttle pedal is really light on the Outback, pay attention to that on the B, if it's too light, you'll end up keeping your foot suspended, aiding to the discomfort.

Have you thought of the Volvo V50? It's nice; awd, turbo, sports package, nice ride/handling (built on a Mazda 3 chassis) and, most important FANTASTIC seats (my sister in-law has one).

Fun to drive, too, and not very expensive if you go CPO, probably low 20's for a clean 05.

Ed

armaq

04-29-2007, 04:24 PM

Why not an S60R? It tickes all the boxes: AWD, decent performance/handling, good ride, a great sound system and some of the best seats.

dan

04-29-2007, 04:35 PM

i think equ has a penis though

Jeff_DML

04-29-2007, 05:16 PM

for the legacy spec-b , I think if you keep the bilstein shocks and swap out the springs it will improve the handling greatly, subaru JDM pink springs.

I like the s4, especially the avant:) , but the gas mileage is terrible. chipped 2.0T seems like a better choice at least for me.

Nick M3

04-29-2007, 05:26 PM

You might as well try a 335xi.

lemming

04-29-2007, 10:20 PM

i think equ has a penis though

re: the Subaru or the Volvo?

equ

04-29-2007, 10:51 PM

I think he meant the volvo. I mentioned the volvo possibility to my gf, she said she doesn't see me in a volvo. Though to be fair the s60r is in s4 territory and I should probably find one to drive.

JST

04-30-2007, 08:53 AM

I think he meant the volvo. I mentioned the volvo possibility to my gf, she said she doesn't see me in a volvo. Though to be fair the s60r is in s4 territory and I should probably find one to drive.

Meh. I wouldn't bother. The R series Volvo is a good family car, but if you have an enthusiast itch that the E39 won't scratch, the S60R certainly ain't going to do it. It's faster than the E39, but the engine isn't really that much fun, and the chassis balance is far worse.

04-30-2007, 09:04 AM

Meh. I wouldn't bother. The R series Volvo is a good family car, but if you have an enthusiast itch that the E39 won't scratch, the S60R certainly ain't going to do it. It's faster than the E39, but the engine isn't really that much fun, and the chassis balance is far worse.

I agree. Granted I have a slushie wagon, but as I've said before, the ZHP is MUCH more of a sportscar. Unless, like me you needed a large wagon with good performance, don't bother.

My blind vote would be for the 328xi. It's a new car with free maintenance, full warranty, you like the seats, and having the Cayman means that its potential ugliness/numbness is not a total deal breaker. Can't you find a CPO if the price is a bit steep?

JST

04-30-2007, 09:33 AM

My (now somewhat dated) review of the S60R is here:

http://teamwtf.org/content/view/98/93/

04-30-2007, 10:32 AM

Meh. I wouldn't bother. The R series Volvo is a good family car, but if you have an enthusiast itch that the E39 won't scratch, the S60R certainly ain't going to do it. It's faster than the E39, but the engine isn't really that much fun, and the chassis balance is far worse.
The V70R makes a lot of sense (as it is, hands-down, the highest performance large wagon available). But the the S60R doesn't. For what it is, it's over-priced and under-good. Chassis dynamics are mediocre at best (and far inferior to the E39's). Being fast doesn't make up for everything else.

As far as fast, high-end, AWD 4-door cars go, there is just no reason to pick the S60R over an S4. In fact, there is no reason at all to get an S60R.

04-30-2007, 10:43 AM

In fact, there is no reason at all to get an S60R.

That was my thought all along. And the fact that they are still lingering on dealer lots months into the next model year and offered at ridiculous discounts is why they will stop making them. Just check dealer inventories online. The cheap price is the only reason to even think of one. But I would just let the thought pass.

Wagons OTOH are harder to find and discounts are lower. MT wagons are REALLY hard to find now and some dealers are offering almost no deals as they know they are becoming very valuable to the few that need one. This is what I read at least.

Sharp11

04-30-2007, 10:58 AM

JST

04-30-2007, 11:12 AM

I was recommending Equ look into the V50, which is a completely different car than the S60.

The V50 is the wagon version of the S40, Volvo's smallest car. With the sport package, turbo and AWD, it's fun to drive.

Ed

Also meh. I drove one of those before I bought the Audi. Nice enough, but kind of slow and really, really small. The LGT is a better choice than the Volvo.

rumatt

04-30-2007, 11:21 AM

Also meh.

Volvo * --> meh.

Sharp11

04-30-2007, 11:43 AM

Also meh. I drove one of those before I bought the Audi. Nice enough, but kind of slow and really, really small. The LGT is a better choice than the Volvo.

Yeah, but he wants to ski, so the wagon is a good choice, and he's concerned about the seats.

Otherwise, if it weren't for the AWD requirement, I'd recommend him biting the bullet and buying back the car he already had, the ZHP, what could be better?

Ed

equ

04-30-2007, 01:01 PM

Right? For a 2wd daily, I think the zhp is very good... Would be better with lsd + torque.

I bought that car twice for a reason. If I get past the awd requirement (get along gf's impreza) that would be still be a frontrunner - though a bit embarrassing to buy the same car three times.

Nick M3

04-30-2007, 01:20 PM

04-30-2007, 02:42 PM

Why not consider a 335xi?
Or 328XiT?

equ

05-04-2007, 03:33 PM

I still think the s4 avant is more fun. Stay tuned... :eeps:

05-04-2007, 04:04 PM

Did you sell the 5er already, or would you have 3 cars even for a few days?

equ

05-05-2007, 12:49 AM

I can't wait to pick it up. The awesome engine sound gives the car a personality that other audis don't seem to have. The handling and the seats don't hurt either...

05-05-2007, 03:54 PM

I can't wait to pick it up. The awesome engine sound gives the car a personality that other audis don't seem to have. The handling and the seats don't hurt either...

Awesome. Sweet car setup (S4 Avant + CaymanS).:cool:

lemming

05-05-2007, 07:33 PM

FWD!?:eek:

:dunno:

it's just a commuter car. as 'qu has shown, we all seem to have slightly different priorities for our 90% cars.

for me, in the future, i'm going to try to keep a pretty inexpensive and frugal commuter car. i don't know enough about the pontiac G8 at this time, but i'd say it's an alternative.

i'd like an S4 avant, too. but it makes no sense to me to have that nice a car to drive every day to do serious quotidian duty and also get bad MPGs while doing it.