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ff
05-20-2006, 12:36 PM
Took some "me" time off from work and the kids on Thurs and Fri, and test drove a few cars. Thought I'd post some comments.

Mazdaspeed6:
My gawd, this car is fast. :eek: I mean, really, really fast. It starts revving like any other 4 cylinder, but torque comes on full-tilt at a little over 2 grand on the tach, and pulls like a steam train. Every time. There is no leisurely stroll around the city streets, unless you continually short-shift under 2000 RPM.
That marvelous torque curve aside, the car is nothing terribly spectacular. Interior is nice, but a bit chincy looking with the glossy black plastic that reminds me a bit of the black lacquer furniture of the late 80's. Seats are fine, cockpit is clean and laid out tastefully, and rear seat is adequate for 2 kids.
Handling was OK, but noticed a fair amount of lean while cornering, and tons of plow when braking hard. The front end also likes to "buck" up everytime the turbo really starts to kick in. Gives the feeling that the car is never really settled in nicely, unless you're coasting down the highway in neutral. We did a semi-emergency stop to get a feel for the braking, and the tires immediately gave up traction as the front end plowed [what seemed like] all the way down to the pavement, and the ABS went nuts trying to control lockup. Do the same in an S2000, 330i, etc, and there is plenty of traction, and is very easy to modulate.
The shifter was smooth, yet not as firm as I prefer it. Almost borderline sloppy, and left me frequently wondering if I was in the intended gear, or even fully in gear at all. The clutch is great. Takeup is almost immediate, and grabs harder than any other modern car I've driven. This is a huge plus in my book, except for one thing: the numb DBW throttle and all that sound insulation keeps you from having any clue what the engine was doing, making feathering the clutch very difficult. I know my wife would have a difficult time getting used to it. Hell, even I would.
All that being said, I still think the car is near the front of the pack, especially when you consider price. Dealer had something like 9 of them on the lot, so dealing on the car shouldn't be entirely difficult.

Lexus IS250:
Actually found one with a stick, but had no sport package and had the smaller all-season tires. What's odd, is that it's nearly impossible to find one without the sport package, and nearly impossible to find one with a stick. How did they come up with the idea to order one w/o sport package, but with a stick (huh??)? Talk about an odd duck. It's no wonder why this example has been sitting on the lot for a while.
Anyhow, the car is nice. Good quality materials, solid, nice design. The stick shifted nicer than the Mazda's. The power was underwhelming, and again the DBW & sound insulation made it difficult to figure out what the engine was doing on takeoffs in 1st gear. The clutch was much less aggressive than the Mazda's, which made it easier to drive smoothly though.
Not much else to say about the car, other than "it's nice". The lease rates are not so good, so I'm pretty sure I'm going to pass on this one.

Acura TSX:
Nice car for the money. Solid interior, and is a nice step up from the Honda line in terms of fit and finish, and materials. It has a surprisingly large amount of space for a compact vehicle. Unfortunately, they had no stick to drive, but they are available from time to time. So we drove an auto.
The steering is very nicely weighted. It makes the steering effort in my S2000 feel like a Buick in comparison. I liked it. The handling is pretty firm, even though there is some body roll. And the all-season tires held on better than I expected. Get some summer rubber on this car, and I'm pretty sure it'd perform quite well.
Engine was peppy off the line, but fizzled out very quickly until the tach reached past 4000 RPM, where it moves along nicely again. Mate the car to the manual 6 speed, and I think the car has reasonable potential. Pricing is pretty good when you consider that everything comes standard.

Audi A4:
Dealer only had one example with a stick, and it was FWD, no sport package, tiny wheels w/ all-season rubber. It had also just come off the truck and wasn't prepped for driving. I was able to drive it around the dealer lot to get a feel for it, though. Nice interior, car is very solid. I wasn't able to get a complete sense for the drivetrain's abilities, other than deciding that the shifter felt decent, and had short throws. Once again, difficult to determine what the engine was doing while feathering the clutch on takeoff.
I thought to myself, if the drivetrain is basically FWD layout no matter what the configuration, does it really make any sense to go with the quattro? That's going to add weight, reduce mileage and acceleration, and add to the cost of the vehicle. That being the case, I'm thinking the best route would be to just buy the 2WD model.
Well, the experience was nothing memorable. I probably owe it to myself to come back when they have a better example to test drive.

E90 325i:
Stopped by Carmax in Clearwater, and they had an example with sport package, stick, and roughly 9000 miles. I have to say that, overall, this drive was the best out the previous ones over the past 2 days. Not the fastest car, but the most balanced and communicative. The seats were awesome. The handling firm and unflappable, yet swallows up bumps with a perfectly subdued "thump". The interior is still not completely to my liking, but I do enjoy the fact that it's simple, clean, and not flashy. The problem with this example, is that it was priced at over $32K, which is basically what the same thing would cost new. The salesman drew up a sample sale that included an extended warranty, taxes, tags, etc, and it was approaching $40K. I just laughed, and parted ways. Shit, I'll just buy a similar, new 330i for that money. But you know that some sucker will buy it.


OK, that's all to report at this point. My overall thoughts are pretty well exactly what I expected. Compared to my S2000, everything else is so numb, so lifeless. So boring. The shifter in the S is so superior in feel and action, that everything else feels like a fisher price toy. I intentionally haven't driven the S since early last week, just so my thoughts wouldn't be swayed. That didn't end up making much difference. The biggest problem, however, is the damned DBW systems, and the need to shield the driver from any unnecessary noise or feel. The only vehicle that was even close to striking my fancy was the E90, which as I think about it more and more, was really quite good. It's been a few years since I've driven an E46, so I can't really compare it to that.

The conclusion that I keep coming back to is that I really, really like owning the S2000. The car is just too damned good...for its own good.

What's next? Carmax Tampa has a decent selection of low-mileage E46's that I'm going to check out. They have two 2004 325Ci's w/ sport package and stick, both right around 30K miles, and both stickering for about $27K, which is several thousand under KBB retail value. Man, how ironic (and infuriating) would that be if I ended up back in an E46. :rolleyes:

Sharp11
05-20-2006, 01:28 PM
Took some "me" time off from work and the kids on Thurs and Fri, and test drove a few cars.

Reading this reminds me why I didn't buy another sedan; what a snooze-fest.

Ed

equ
05-20-2006, 01:44 PM
Audi A4:
I thought to myself, if the drivetrain is basically FWD layout no matter what the configuration, does it really make any sense to go with the quattro? That's going to add weight, reduce mileage and acceleration, and add to the cost of the vehicle. That being the case, I'm thinking the best route would be to just buy the 2WD model.


Good question - I'm going to say quattro is worth it for a more capable sporty car feel. The difference is not noticeable until you really start pushing. Having owned an a4q for five years (my longest relationship yet :lol: ) and having driven "decent" fwd cars many times (best friend's passat, rsx-s,...) I can definitely say that quattro is more fun to drive. Not in a 50/50 balanced style but slow-in-and-nail-it-early-n-feel-it-grip style. It's really worth it for hard driving and will pay for itself in resale (well at least in the NE).

BTW, I really disliked the TSX handling a couple of years ago, I thought it was really bad in the turns.

JST
05-20-2006, 03:13 PM
The A4 definitely needs the sport suspension--without it, it is badly underdamped and floaty. With it, it's underdamped and floatly, but not by much.

I think the Q drivetrain makes sense, but I might not if I lived in FL where there is basically no chance of inclement weather. I've never driven an A4 non-Q, but my drives in the A3 and GTI suggest that the biggest problem an A3 nonQ would have is ripping its inside tire to shreds when you were coming out of a turn hard, ESPECIALLY in the wet. The car has a pretty solid amount of torque, and its easy to overwhelm the front wheels.

I'm not sure whether it's even a possibility, size-wise, but if you are thinking about a FWD A4, you should at least look at the A3/GTI. That car is so much more fun to drive than the A4 it's crazy. Crazy. The Jetta GLI isn't bad, either, so long as you can get past the ass styling, which looks like ass, but not good ass.

rumatt
05-20-2006, 03:38 PM
Wow, that's a lot of test drives!

I have to say, I also don't get the mazdaspeed 6. Huge power in an average handling econo car. Blech.

I sometimes go through phases where I'm bored with my E46, but it really is (still) one of the best daily drivers out there, all things considered.

lemming
05-20-2006, 05:55 PM
personally, i find the mazdaspeed 6 shifter to be very un-mazda like. it seems ropey. but that could be in comparison to the new miata and mazda 3. and because i'm used to the legacy GT, i didn't find the mazdaspeed 6 to be a huge revelation, personally.

i'd go and drive an e90 but if they're only going to offer the 325 wagon that has the same power to weight ratio of the e46 wagon, i won't even bother.

i'm currently disgusted with what's available for wagons so i'm going to wait some more and see what happens. thanks for the writeup, ff.

ff
05-20-2006, 07:23 PM
I'm not sure whether it's even a possibility, size-wise, but if you are thinking about a FWD A4, you should at least look at the A3/GTI.
The A4 and A3 seemed very close in size, so I get the feeling that the 3 would probably work just as well. It's also less expensive, which is always a good thing.

Wow, that's a lot of test drives!
I had planned to stop in at the BMW dealer last, which was just down the street, but ran out of time and sunlight. I'll tell you what, it felt so, so good to just go out and do something by myself. No kids, no wife, no responsibilities. Kind of a mini vacation. :)

and because i'm used to the legacy GT
I really should get back out and drive the Legacy as well.

lemming
05-20-2006, 08:43 PM
The A4 and A3 seemed very close in size, so I get the feeling that the 3 would probably work just as well. It's also less expensive, which is always a good thing.


I had planned to stop in at the BMW dealer last, which was just down the street, but ran out of time and sunlight. I'll tell you what, it felt so, so good to just go out and do something by myself. No kids, no wife, no responsibilities. Kind of a mini vacation. :)


I really should get back out and drive the Legacy as well.

oh. you won't like the subaru shifter or clutch engagement. or its brakes. :dunno:

don't waste your time, dude.

it's why, no matter how fast it was, i couldn't live with it on an everyday basis. i might even try the automatic outback xt just to see if i could live with that everday as a commuter because the shifter and clutch are so....behind the curve.

JST
05-20-2006, 09:57 PM
The A4 and A3 seemed very close in size, so I get the feeling that the 3 would probably work just as well. It's also less expensive, which is always a good thing.


They are close in size, and the A3 is cheaper...except that the A4 has a much larger (longer) trunk, and lease incentives frequently mean that if you are leasing the A4 is actually cheaper than the A3. Those two factors are why I'm driving an A4 now, rather than the A3 that I really wanted.

equ
05-21-2006, 10:40 AM
oh. you won't like the subaru shifter or clutch engagement. or its brakes. :dunno:

don't waste your time, dude.

it's why, no matter how fast it was, i couldn't live with it on an everyday basis. i might even try the automatic outback xt just to see if i could live with that everday as a commuter because the shifter and clutch are so....behind the curve.

Brakes are not good and shifter is subpar but the clutch on new subies has to be better than bmw clutches :mad:

equ
05-21-2006, 10:42 AM
They are close in size, and the A3 is cheaper...except that the A4 has a much larger (longer) trunk, and lease incentives frequently mean that if you are leasing the A4 is actually cheaper than the A3. Those two factors are why I'm driving an A4 now, rather than the A3 that I really wanted.

The quattro systems are a bit different too. A3 having haldex/fwd based and a4 having 50/50 ("real") quattro. I think I could feel difference even on dry ground :eeps:.

ff
05-21-2006, 11:10 AM
Is it true that the A4 has the engine mounted longitudinally? If so, I'd like to see how the front 1/2 shafts are powered. Must be a transfer case that redirects power up front. Seems pretty inefficient for the FWD models.

JST
05-21-2006, 05:08 PM
Is it true that the A4 has the engine mounted longitudinally? If so, I'd like to see how the front 1/2 shafts are powered. Must be a transfer case that redirects power up front. Seems pretty inefficient for the FWD models.

Yes, engine is mounted longitudinally. You should pop the hood--it's funny how small the 2.0 is in the A4's engine bay.

The engine in the A4 (in fact, the engine in *every* A4, including the S and RS) is mounted entirely in front of the front wheels. If you open the hood, you can see the front half-shafts clearly--the engine is in front of (and above) them.

This is (I am pretty sure) a pic of an A4 transmission.

http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/transmissions/images/76.jpg

The A3 does use a Haldex unit to transfer the power back to the rear, and has the engine mounted laterally. The 2.0T, however, is not available with the quattro system, and the 3.2 is hideously overpriced, available only with a DSG, and generally feels *less* quick than the 2.0, in part because of the weight and in part because of the lack of turbo punch. A quattro A3, IOW, is not something I'd consider.

lemming
05-21-2006, 05:50 PM
Yes, engine is mounted longitudinally. You should pop the hood--it's funny how small the 2.0 is in the A4's engine bay.

The engine in the A4 (in fact, the engine in *every* A4, including the S and RS) is mounted entirely in front of the front wheels. If you open the hood, you can see the front half-shafts clearly--the engine is in front of (and above) them.

This is (I am pretty sure) a pic of an A4 transmission.

http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/transmissions/images/76.jpg

The A3 does use a Haldex unit to transfer the power back to the rear, and has the engine mounted laterally. The 2.0T, however, is not available with the quattro system, and the 3.2 is hideously overpriced, available only with a DSG, and generally feels *less* quick than the 2.0, in part because of the weight and in part because of the lack of turbo punch. A quattro A3, IOW, is not something I'd consider.

that seems to mean that they have a fundamental difference in corporate priority than BMW does because the cars will always be compromised.

i guess that's okay for an everyday car because MOST people wouldn't really know the difference. but it demonstrates again how much more thought and how much less compromise there is in the BMW designs because they don't share chassis/powertrains with more plebian stablemates.

when you think about it, VAG is very much like a german GM. we just don't give them as much shit as people give to GM for its branding philosophy.

Nick M3
05-21-2006, 06:07 PM
Brakes are not good and shifter is subpar but the clutch on new subies has to be better than bmw clutches :mad:
Scoobies have great brakes, but unbelievably craptacular pads. If you're willing to swap something half decent in immediately, feel and stopping power issues all disappear.

equ
05-21-2006, 07:22 PM
Scoobies have great brakes, but unbelievably craptacular pads. If you're willing to swap something half decent in immediately, feel and stopping power issues all disappear.

Cool. Nice info - as I'm a subie fan.

FC
05-21-2006, 08:26 PM
Cool. Nice info - as I'm a subie fan.

Indeed, as a 3.0R is still in the cards and that is a low point in the car for me. It's also currently an issue with my Saabaru.

lemming
05-21-2006, 08:43 PM
Indeed, as a 3.0R is still in the cards and that is a low point in the car for me. It's also currently an issue with my Saabaru.

i could live easily with an LLBean 3.0R wagon.

:dunno:

FC
05-21-2006, 09:27 PM
i could live easily with an LLBean 3.0R wagon.

:dunno:

Me too, just the brakes didn't seem to have all that much feel at the time. It could just be a new car thing.

lemming
05-21-2006, 09:43 PM
it would be good if when, after you guys have beta-tested the more recent audi stuff, that you find them to be less glitchy.

:-D

Rob
05-22-2006, 05:53 AM
Took some "me" time off from work and the kids on Thurs and Fri, and test drove a few cars. Thought I'd post some comments.

Mazdaspeed6:
My gawd, this car is fast. :eek: I mean, really, really fast. It starts revving like any other 4 cylinder, but torque comes on full-tilt at a little over 2 grand on the tach, and pulls like a steam train. Every time. There is no leisurely stroll around the city streets, unless you continually short-shift under 2000 RPM.

Ha

haha

hahaha

:lol:

Ok, maybe I am a bit jaded.

ff
05-22-2006, 07:39 AM
Ok, maybe I am a bit jaded.

At least it's predictable, and less of a shock when your engine delivers a mountain of torque. At 1 RPM. :D

Alan
05-23-2006, 03:56 PM
I found the flattening of power when you hit 1000 rpm before redline killed the Mazdaspeed6. It just felt weird otherwise it is a decent car though I would never get a Mazda 6 product again ... nothing wrong with it but just too vanilla.

I think the 325 is the car for you ... also try out the A4 again ...

ff
05-23-2006, 04:09 PM
Yup, that's pretty much where I'm concentrating my efforts right now. The A4 and 325i. I found a new A4 Quattro stick to drive over in Orlando. Gonna have to schedule a trip this week. Fortunately, it's only about 1.5 hours away.

Fortunately, that also means that Disney is only 1.5 hours away :D