View Full Version : It's officially over. Or not.
The waffling, that is. Well, some of it at least.
770 miles, 12 hours, and $20 worth of tolls later, it is now home.
Details later.
SARAFIL
06-07-2009, 07:26 AM
The waffling, that is. Well, some of it at least.
770 miles, 12 hours, and $20 worth of tolls later, it is now home.
Details later.
You drove that far for an old Jeep? :eek:
:D
lemming
06-07-2009, 08:23 AM
Only 20bucks in tolls mean you came from the west and not the new jersey route.
I bet more than half of that was the bridge to (and from) Canada.
Michigan--the roads suck, but at least they are free.
Bridge to Canada: $1.50
Buffalo toll: $1.00
NY Thruway: $14.55
Mass Pike: $2.70
Oh, and Blimpy Burger is no longer "there." Got a steak grilled stufft burrito @ Taco Bell near Port Huron instead.
I like MI's 70mph speed limit.
I like MI's 70mph speed limit.
That's slow... We may have speed cams, but at least AZ's posted limit is 75. Since the cameras and DPS (highway patrol) have an 11 MPH grace, the real limit is 85...
That's slow... We may have speed cams, but at least AZ's posted limit is 75. Since the cameras and DPS (highway patrol) have an 11 MPH grace, the real limit is 85...
That's awesome!
Oh, BTW, the 987's speedo is optimistic by a solid 1-2mph.
lemming
06-07-2009, 01:02 PM
That's awesome!
Oh, BTW, the 987's speedo is optimistic by a solid 1-2mph.
Comfy for cruising?
No more Blimpy Burger? Crap, that's awful.
So, how's the Porsche?
No more Blimpy Burger? Crap, that's awful.
So, how's the Porsche?
In no particular order...
It really is an amazing car. 6th is geared almost exactly like 5th on the ZHP, so the revs are a little higher durign hwy cruise. Much like I keep the ZHP on 5th in the hwy for easier passing, the 987S is in that mode all the time, except with far more torque. It was effortless on 6th to go from 75 to 85 to pass someone. I averaged 26mpg.
The car's suspension really is great. It feels so well planted at up to 100, it's silly. There is plenty of torque to still make it fun at lower revs, and when you spin it past 4krpm it's just awesome. Not stupid fast, but very fast still. The Bose stereo is just so-so despite being a (pricey) upgrade, but who cares? The engine soundtrack is all you need. I'm glad I had the power seats, it gives much more and better adjustment (performance-wise) than the BMW (bottom cusion recline). Also the Xenons are better than the BMW's, which are already great (specifically in high-beam mode).
My one gripe is the steering wheel. It is much too thin and lacks thumb suports. I never got a comfortable grip - especially during high-speed turns. I was honestly concerned it would slip through my grip. I had to straddle the sopkes with my fingers to make sure I had it. I dunno what to do about it as ordering a thick, cocoa P-wheel will run well north of a $1K. Still, I may consider it. It was very annoying. I may have to try leather driving gloves.
The top really is something. It hardly rattled despite the stiff suspension (very glad I only have 18" wheels). I honestly sometimes forgot I was in a convertible. There is also plenty of head room. It's a very pretty interior to look at too. The speedometer is totally useless. The digital one is the only one that is worth a damn and there is a bit of lag, which is less than ideal. I'm still trying to get used to the clutch during reverse. For some reason I have trouble with it. The brakes are awesome, although, there is a bit of dead travel at first (much lilke the V70R which has nearly identical brakes). The tire pressure monitor is pretty handy.
I drove it top down as I crossed into Canada. It is really cool how the whole feel of the car changes. It is really great. Convertibles are cool. I felt like a spoiled prick when I got to the tolls (probably becasue I am). I'm sure it didn't help that two of the CD's in the car were Bon Jovi's and The Boss' greatest hits talking about the struggles in life, and there I am driving a virtually new 987S :rolleyes: (more on this later.)
The car just keeps you engaged. Even the most mundane happenings feel special as the car reacts and makes cool noises. It begs to be revved. It's so mechanical, involved, direct. It's great.
I got lots of thumbs up, smiles, honks, and a trucker asked for ME to honk (very funny).
I was wrong about it being similar to the 330i. It's not. It is in the sense that it has more creature comforts than the Elise. But it gives you that while a lot of the experience the Elise gives you. Porsche build quality is superb.
As far as the car itself. It feels new. From the exterior, it looks brand spanking new except for a slightly discolored film aft of the rear wheel wells. the interior is nearly new with a couple of minor marks on the leather that I'm sure I will add to in short order. The car is a very late '07. The warranty got punched in September, '07 with the dealer only getting a hold of it in August.
It is a beautiful car. It had a complete service done on 5/19 (oil, filters, brake fluid, etc) for ~$800. Original retail was $64K. I'll take the 24K discount.;)
Anyhow, very busy today so sorry for the lack of structure to this post. I'm sure I will think of more or you guys will prompt me for it.
I'm a deeply saddened at the idea of selling the ZHP. I honestly feel like I'm braking up with my girlfriend. That car is like a great old pair of shoes and my kid LOVES it. When he sees is he says "Papa cah, vroom, VROOM!" I'll rant mroe about this later. I need therapy. How lame. If I win the lottery in the next few weeks, I'll keep it. Actually, I'll probably buy an M3 sedan and forget all about it, but you know what I mean. It really is hard to think of a better single vehicle to do it all (or most). Sometimes I think I'm a moron for having spent all that money on the 987S when the ZHP is still so good for so much less. But then the 987S is sooooo awesome...
lemming
06-07-2009, 05:31 PM
In no particular order...
It really is an amazing car. 6th is geared almost exactly like 5th on the ZHP, so the revs are a little higher durign hwy cruise. Much like I keep the ZHP on 5th in the hwy for easier passing, the 987S is in that mode all the time, except with far more torque. It was effortless on 6th to go from 75 to 85 to pass someone. I averaged 26mpg.
The car's suspension really is great. It feels so well planted at up to 100, it's silly. There is plenty of torque to still make it fun at lower revs, and when you spin it past 4krpm it's just awesome. Not stupid fast, but very fast still. The Bose stereo is just so-so despite being a (pricey) upgrade, but who cares? The engine soundtrack is all you need. I'm glad I had the power seats, it gives much more and better adjustment (performance-wise) than the BMW (bottom cusion recline). Also the Xenons are better than the BMW's, which are already great (specifically in high-beam mode).
My one gripe is the steering wheel. It is much too thin and lacks thumb suports. I never got a comfortable grip - especially during high-speed turns. I was honestly concerned it would slip through my grip. I had to straddle the sopkes with my fingers to make sure I had it. I dunno what to do about it as ordering a thick, cocoa P-wheel will run well north of a $1K. Still, I may consider it. It was very annoying. I may have to try leather driving gloves.
The top really is something. It hardly rattled despite the stiff suspension (very glad I only have 18" wheels). I honestly sometimes forgot I was in a convertible. There is also plenty of head room. It's a very pretty interior to look at too. The speedometer is totally useless. The digital one is the only one that is worth a damn and there is a bit of lag, which is less than ideal. I'm still trying to get used to the clutch during reverse. For some reason I have trouble with it. The brakes are awesome, although, there is a bit of dead travel at first (much lilke the V70R which has nearly identical brakes). The tire pressure monitor is pretty handy.
I drove it top down as I crossed into Canada. It is really cool how the whole feel of the car changes. It is really great. Convertibles are cool. I felt like a spoiled prick when I got to the tolls (probably becasue I am). I'm sure it didn't help that two of the CD's in the car were Bon Jovi's and The Boss' greatest hits talking about the struggles in life, and there I am driving a virtually new 987S :rolleyes: (more on this later.)
The car just keeps you engaged. Even the most mundane happenings feel special as the car reacts and makes cool noises. It begs to be revved. It's so mechanical, involved, direct. It's great.
I got lots of thumbs up, smiles, honks, and a trucker asked for ME to honk (very funny).
I was wrong about it being similar to the 330i. It's not. It is in the sense that it has more creature comforts than the Elise. But it gives you that while a lot of the experience the Elise gives you. Porsche build quality is superb.
As far as the car itself. It feels new. From the exterior, it looks brand spanking new except for a slightly discolored film aft of the rear wheel wells. the interior is nearly new with a couple of minor marks on the leather that I'm sure I will add to in short order. The car is a very late '07. The warranty got punched in September, '07 with the dealer only getting a hold of it in August.
It is a beautiful car. It had a complete service done on 5/19 (oil, filters, brake fluid, etc) for ~$800. Original retail was $64K. I'll take the 24K discount.;)
Anyhow, very busy today so sorry for the lack of structure to this post. I'm sure I will think of more or you guys will prompt me for it.
I'm a deeply saddened at the idea of selling the ZHP. I honestly feel like I'm braking up with my girlfriend. That car is like a great old pair of shoes and my kid LOVES it. When he sees is he says "Papa cah, vroom, VROOM!" I'll rant mroe about this later. I need therapy. How lame. If I win the lottery in the next few weeks, I'll keep it. Actually, I'll probably buy an M3 sedan and forget all about it, but you know what I mean. It really is hard to think of a better single vehicle to do it all (or most). Sometimes I think I'm a moron for having spent all that money on the 987S when the ZHP is still so good for so much less. But then the 987S is sooooo awesome...
great buy, F.
great value. super car.
in the end, the end justifies all of the means to get there, IMHO.
Wonderful write-up.
To me the steering of the cayman is the best aspect. Never darty on the highway, totally relaxed but never a delayed response either. It's not something you can fake, it requires a solid, light, well-balanced, well-suspended car to feel that good.
I have the "thin" base steering wheel as well. I actually got used to it and like it just fine now. It's not like you steer better with some fattened thing, that just feels good to hold (for some). Reminds me of older more retro cars and their thin wheels. You also have to force it less as the effort is a good bit lighter than bmw levels.
Very similar to my zhp->987S story (though I didn't get a kick-ass memorable long first drive). I am stupid for selling my zhp. I had the means, but I thought I'd squeeze another 10k out of it by going to an older 528i, which seemed to work until I was unsatisfied and went to an S4 and then to the e90. I guess the moral of my story is that if you're trying to squeeze 10ish K going from the zhp to some old JGC, between transaction costs and being unsatisfied, it may well not be worth it. Perhaps you should give it 6mos before putting it on sale, I waited one month to be sure and it wasn't the right time.
The big difference between our situations is that you have access to a spacious luxo car like the v70. I didn't (it was the cayman & the old subaru impreza) and within a month of selling the zhp, I was missing tooling around in something comfy, so I shopped around and got the e39. So you may miss the zhp less in some ways, but somehow I don't think so.
Josh (PA)
06-07-2009, 08:00 PM
Congratulations! Great write up. Sounds very cool and after all that waffling you made the right choice. Could you imagine a 700+ mile one day drive in an Elise.... OUCH.
Sharp11
06-07-2009, 08:25 PM
I
I drove it top down as I crossed into Canada. It is really cool how the whole feel of the car changes. It is really great. Convertibles are cool.
The only part of the review that really matters ;)
Wonderful write-up.
To me the steering of the cayman is the best aspect. Never darty on the highway, totally relaxed but never a delayed response either. It's not something you can fake, it requires a solid, light, well-balanced, well-suspended car to feel that good.
I have the "thin" base steering wheel as well. I actually got used to it and like it just fine now. It's not like you steer better with some fattened thing, that just feels good to hold (for some). Reminds me of older more retro cars and their thin wheels. You also have to force it less as the effort is a good bit lighter than bmw levels.
Very similar to my zhp->987S story (though I didn't get a kick-ass memorable long first drive). I am stupid for selling my zhp. I had the means, but I thought I'd squeeze another 10k out of it by going to an older 528i, which seemed to work until I was unsatisfied and went to an S4 and then to the e90. I guess the moral of my story is that if you're trying to squeeze 10ish K going from the zhp to some old JGC, between transaction costs and being unsatisfied, it may well not be worth it. Perhaps you should give it 6mos before putting it on sale, I waited one month to be sure and it wasn't the right time.
The big difference between our situations is that you have access to a spacious luxo car like the v70. I didn't (it was the cayman & the old subaru impreza) and within a month of selling the zhp, I was missing tooling around in something comfy, so I shopped around and got the e39. So you may miss the zhp less in some ways, but somehow I don't think so.
Yeah, the steering is great. As far as the wheel, well, I may get used to it. I may have to since there isn't a cheap solution.
As far as the ZHP, the key thing is that the jeep will not replace the ZHP. The Volvo will replace the ZHP. I plan on driving the Volvo everyday unless I can manage to take the 987S or the weather is bad enough that it justifies taking the jeep.
The reality is that with a 2nd kid 3 weeks away, and starting to get ready, you realize the ZHP just isn't very roomy. It would work fine, but the Volvo has more room (and is safer). One of the main benefits of getting the JGC is that the dog will only board the V70R for trips to canada. That means we can regain the full cargo area of the V70R instead of always having the kennel installed. It will also keep the Volvo free of dog hair.
As the Volvo is now the main car, it leaves the door open for a replacement perhaps sooner that initially thought. That would require me to find a car I'm willing to replace it with. Maybe a next gen 5er wagon, but only if it is a lot better than the current one), or (more likely) eventually getting a nicer SUV and another sedan. That's a few years out. We'll see. My wife has earned a well-deserved year+ break from car talk.
I just washed the car from a nausea-inducing amount of bugs, and damn, it is sharp. I'll get it registered tomorrow and take some pics. I'll post a few pics from the trip later tonight.
EDIT: I was lucky that I saw very few clouds during the whole trip. When the sun went down, I had a full moon. Upper sixties the whole way. Couldn't have asked for better weather.
Congrats FC! Enjoy the new car and post some pictures when you have a chance.
Some photos. In order:
Some kind of test track taken from the plane as we approached Detroit (from Chicago).
First fill-up (3.5 gallons - just a top-off before going into Canada).
Parked at Taco Bell with the top up.
First time dropping the top.
Canadian border at Sarnia - I-94 (my third border crossing - I-91 and I-89 the other two).
Wayne Gretzky Parkway?! The dude is still alive and is young! Hockey-crazy Canadians!
My favorite... A guy climbs out of a moving pick-up doign 75mph+ to get soem shoes. He was entirely on the bed. Never thought I would see this sort of thing in the US. Oh, and that 535i in front of me was really moving and had some absurd rear camber. Funny I didn't even know I caught in the photo until now.
I was hoping to take one of the car outside Blimpy Burger. Shame. Since I managed to leave the dealership at 1:20 PM, I knew I had a shot of getting home at a reasonable hour (as I did) if I just focused on driving, which is why I took so few photos.
Terri Kennedy
06-07-2009, 09:51 PM
Could you imagine a 700+ mile one day drive in an Elise.... OUCH.
That's easy. Try doing it in an Atom :D
Congrats, now email Premier and clearbra it.
I was thinking of that, but considering it is white and that porsche's factory stuff is visibly yellow as well as the use it will get, I wonder if I really should.
There are advantages and disadvantages of clear bras. They are probably better on dark cars. I don't have it on mine and when I see the front chips, I sometimes regret that. But then again, that's what paint is for, shrink-wrapping paint just feels wrong. Most of the time I don't care and this way the paint can be detailed all at the same time. Some stones/chips are going to come find you outside of clear bra area anyway. Overall, I don't think it adds anything to resale and not that much to my enjoyment of the car, so I'm without.
John V
06-08-2009, 05:42 AM
Venture shield is what I have, and it is really amazing. Leaps and bounds better than the old stuff. Almost no orange peel and you have to really look to find the seams that aren't wrapped.
Venture shield is what I have, and it is really amazing. Leaps and bounds better than the old stuff. Almost no orange peel and you have to really look to find the seams that aren't wrapped.
Mine is the old stuff and definitely not amazing in any way - unless you like the look of yellow plastic on a white car.
John V
06-08-2009, 10:18 AM
Mine is the old stuff and definitely not amazing in any way - unless you like the look of yellow plastic on a white car.
Can't comment on the yellowing from personal experience, but the guy who did it says that the new Venture material doesn't do that like the old stuff did.
Nick M3
06-08-2009, 11:10 AM
Can't comment on the yellowing from personal experience, but the guy who did it says that the new Venture material doesn't do that like the old stuff did.
The Llumar rep said that back when Bren got his, too.
It's like putting plastic slipcovers on a couch, IMO. :dunno:
Admittedly, all my cars eventually look sandblasted up front.
Nick M3
06-08-2009, 11:36 AM
I have seen it on white cars, and it looks fine.
Again, just don't use yellow wax. And most Venture installers started telling people to use the cleaner and polisher made specifically for Venture film nowadays.
After how long?
lupinsea
06-08-2009, 01:30 PM
Woohoo!
Congrats, FC!
Car looks sharp and it's great. Enjoy that convertible driving. IMO, hard to imagine any other form factor for a for-fun sports car. Maybe a hard top if you're tracking it but for pure enjoyment on public roads? Convertible, baby, yah!
All last week I had my own convertible fun of sorts rolling around in my Jeep. Not a sports car at all but I greatly enjoyed driving a vehicle with the top down and completely open to the air. In that regard, bliss. Also had the top down while doing some towing duties. Convertible tow vehicle = awesome.
Anyways, have fun with your new toy.
Woohoo!
Congrats, FC!
Car looks sharp and it's great. Enjoy that convertible driving. IMO, hard to imagine any other form factor for a for-fun sports car. Maybe a hard top if you're tracking it but for pure enjoyment on public roads? Convertible, baby, yah!
All last week I had my own convertible fun of sorts rolling around in my Jeep. Not a sports car at all but I greatly enjoyed driving a vehicle with the top down and completely open to the air. In that regard, bliss. Also had the top down while doing some towing duties. Convertible tow vehicle = awesome.
Anyways, have fun with your new toy.
Thanks everyone. And thanks for putting up with the waffling. I drove it today, and at non-hwy speeds it's even cooler. Very happy.
I had to swap cars during lunch and when you literally get on the ZHP seconds after having driven the 987S, it really opens your eyes. I see why guys say E46's are soft. The car just felt numb, soft and cushy.
I look forward to someday taking an M3 sedan for a test drive after having driven the 987S. That should be interesting.
SARAFIL
06-08-2009, 02:31 PM
Thanks everyone. And thanks for putting up with the waffling. I drove it today, and at non-hwy speeds it's even cooler. Very happy.
I had to swap cars during lunch and when you literally get on the ZHP seconds after having driven the 987S, it really opens your eyes. I see why guys say E46's are soft. The car just felt numb, soft and cushy.
I look forward to someday taking an M3 sedan for a test drive after having driven the 987S. That should be interesting.
Congrats on the car... looks great in white!!
So now that you've purchased this car... what else can we talk about? :lol: I think posts relating to your car shopping have accounted for at least 25% of the activity on this site in the past few years. :eeps:
rumatt
06-08-2009, 02:41 PM
Congrats!!!! I want one.
When do you start planning it's sale date, and what comes next? ;)
Oh, you guys...
I'm going to check out that '02 JGC. Carfax checks out as only a 2-owner car, with no issues to report. First owner had it for 1.5 years and 15k miles, 2nd owner since up to current 116K miles.
If it drives and feels right, I'll offer $6500. Surprisingly, my wife REALLY wants to pull the trigger on the jeep.
Further out, who knows? We'll give it a couple of years and see how things go. First we need to see if we are all done with kids, financial picture, etc. Both the V70R and 987S will be under factory warranty for 4 years.
I'm retiring "The Plan," wich, FWIW, despite ALL the waffling, ended up working out frightingly accurately.
I'll just play it by ear from now on.;)
I'm retiring "The Plan," wich, FWIW, despite ALL the waffling, ended up working out frightingly accurately.
You may retire that plan... But now its time for "Plan B" :lol:
John V
06-08-2009, 03:13 PM
Oh.. and congrats on the car. I bet you will love that car for a long time.
On the topic of Grand Cherokees... one of my friends inherited an 02 or '03 (not sure) JGC not too long ago. It's a really low-mile example, 40k or so. All I can say is that's a pretty miserable vehicle to drive. I know these things are built to go off road, but man is it a terrible vehicle on-road. It's clunky... it pitches and bobs over the slightest bumps in the road, it is tough to keep in a lane... I mean I know it's not a sports car, but it is really bad to drive. You sure you want one of these for general hauling duties?
I know that vehicles like the CR-V are seen as kind of wimpy but my co-worker's example is pretty nice. Good ride height for handling potholes, snow, etc and the convenience of AWD but it basically drives like a tall car. Something like that, or maybe an X3 or a Honda Pilot seems like a better buy for your purposes (family trips, trips to big box stores, snow use, some "soft-roading.")
The Llumar rep said that back when Bren got his, too.
...and so does the literature I'm looking at right now "guaranteed to never yellow."
I have seen it on white cars, and it looks fine.
Again, just don't use yellow wax. And most Venture installers started telling people to use the cleaner and polisher made specifically for Venture film nowadays.
Yellow wax? really? hahaha ok, sure that's the cause.
I've tried plastic cleaners that would restore the windows on my Wrangler and they don't help.
After how long?
How many miles driven (and how many winters) is probably a more relevant question than how long.
All is well with this plan except for the JGC bit. Why don't you live with the boxster & v70 for a while, sell the zhp if you absolutely have to and see what it is that you're missing? Put your finger on it, define it and you'll be more likely on target. The 987S is not a pure zhp replacement, so this affects the perception for your "other" car.
It is very possible that you may want to keep the boxster experience special or out of winter and need the 3rd vehicle to be more car-like than for hauling stuff. Who knows? Wait and see, I say. Been there, done that.
You can wrap the entire front hood and fenders, where are the chips going to be? A good isntaller like Premier can tuck all seams, on mine, unless you open the door and look at the front hinge area, or pop the hood and look at the underside, you are not going to find any seams. That's the point of full wrap.
It will add to resale if you are looking at a car with prestine front versus sandblasted front. Which gets more and more pronounced on used cars as they age.
My worst chip is above a rear wheel, and the windshield is getting minor pits as well. The hood does have a few chips, a couple of them past where I would have stopped the bra...
If (price of bra ~ price of respray) {
:ack: :dunno: :confused:
}
Perhaps you should rename this thread, it has officially started. You are a patient and lucky bastard I might say. Of all the cars I've owned, the zhp and the cayman are two favorites.
wdc330i
06-08-2009, 03:44 PM
All is well with this plan except for the JGC bit. Why don't you live with the boxster & v70 for a while, sell the zhp if you absolutely have to and see what it is that you're missing? Put your finger on it, define it and you'll be more likely on target. The 987S is not a pure zhp replacement, so this affects the perception for your "other" car.
It is very possible that you may want to keep the boxster experience special or out of winter and need the 3rd vehicle to be more car-like than for hauling stuff. Who knows? Wait and see, I say. Been there, done that.
Agree. Keep the ZHP. Eventually replace the V70 with an X5 diesel with 3rd row.
Agree. Keep the ZHP. Eventually replace the V70 with an X5 diesel with 3rd row.
Damn you guys for not helping at all.:mad2:
The idea is that the Volvo is not worth a lot (Low $20K?) yet it is an awesome family car with lots of room that will spank any SUV in all areas except ground clearance. It also has over 4 years of warranty left. If it were as fun to drive as the ZHP, that would be the end of the argument. But it's not horrible, my commute is short and involves lots of people, and it's good to have AWD in the winter.
There are two main scenarios that include the 987S (or other sportscar) long term.
1) Nice wagon+crappy SUV
2) Nice sedan+decent SUV
Of course, I would prefer 2), but I get better value out of 1) since the kids are small and they take up a lot of room and carry lots of stuff.
The SUV can never be too nice since it must always handle dirty jobs+dog.
Keep the volvo for sure. If you absolutely absolutely have to sell the zhp. But most importantly, see when you don't want to use the 987S. This may be nearly never for a while as you'll want to drive at all times when weather and number of passengers permit. But then as reality creeps in you may end up wishing for a different kind of daily that none of us will be able to predict now..
An 02 JGC sounds like such a bad idea (unless it happens to be that perfect hand-me-down or something) I don't know where to begin to pick it apart. JV made a start on the handling. I'll mention safety. Is it as safe as being in the v70 or the zhp or even the 987S? I highly doubt it.
Time to change the thread title. Apparently it's *never* over.
Damn you guys for not helping at all.:mad2:
The idea is that the Volvo is not worth a lot (Low $20K?) yet it is an awesome family car with lots of room that will spank any SUV in all areas except ground clearance. It also has over 4 years of warranty left. If it were as fun to drive as the ZHP, that would be the end of the argument. But it's not horrible, my commute is short and involves lots of people, and it's good to have AWD in the winter.
There are two main scenarios that include the 987S (or other sportscar) long term.
1) Nice wagon+crappy SUV
2) Nice sedan+decent SUV
Of course, I would prefer 2), but I get better value out of 1) since the kids are small and they take up a lot of room and carry lots of stuff.
The SUV can never be too nice since it must always handle dirty jobs+dog.
You've gotten by with the Volvo and the ZHP for quite some time. Why does adding a Boxster make a change necessary in the other two cars? Seems like the best/easiest thing to do would be to just keep the BMW and the Volvo.
I don't plan to get rid of the E39 when I add a Porsche (eventually).
SARAFIL
06-08-2009, 04:18 PM
You've gotten by with the Volvo and the ZHP for quite some time. Why does adding a Boxster make a change necessary in the other two cars? Seems like the best/easiest thing to do would be to just keep the BMW and the Volvo.
yep...
If the BMW and Volvo have worked up until now... well, how can adding an extra car change that?
I'd rather have the 6 year old BMW that you know and love than someone's 6 year old Jeep, even if the BMW is worth 2.5x as much as the Jeep.
Congrats! It looks great!
I don't plan to get rid of the E39 when I add a Porsche (eventually).
Ah, another five-year plan. I was beginning to get worried that we don't have much waffling left to waffle over as everybody settles in to their favorite cars for the long haul...
yep...
If the BMW and Volvo have worked up until now... well, how can adding an extra car change that?
I'd rather have the 6 year old BMW that you know and love than someone's 6 year old Jeep, even if the BMW is worth 2.5x as much as the Jeep.
You guys are looking at it the wrong way. Ideally I'd add the crappy jeep (or other crappy SUV) as a 4th car. But that's not happening.
The reality is that 95% of the time all we need is a roomy, AWD family car. For the other 5% of the time, all we need is a basic back-up car (that can seat 4).
Keeping my nice BMW all this time has been a luxury. But despite what seemed wasteful, people understood. I like cars, and my sporty BMW was my fun car - despite the sporty wagon and all.
That the wagon has some deficiencies and SUV's can fill those is not new to us. No SUV can touch the V70R most of the time, but a nice SUV still would have been a LOT more than what we paid for the V70R. So we took the deal and the great car. Now we realize that it is a bit of a pain and an inconvenience and think we can afford a few $k to buy a crappy jeep to solve the R's limitations.
Realistically, all we need is the Volvo and the Jeep. At that point the ZHP is 100% a luxury. Just a fun car for me. My wife was ok with that. I wanted a Porsche. She complied. We now have a REALLY nice fun car.
But to keep the BMW as well seems crazy. There is not a single instance where the BMW would have been driven where the Jeep will be driven. The jeep merely spares the Volvo from some duties. That's all.
How do I justfy the BMW? A funs sportscar AND a fun commuter when neither is needed? Forgoe the $10K in savings and not get the jeep so we still have the same inconveniences as before? It's a hard sell.
There's selling the Volvo and getting a decent SUV. I suppose that's an alternative. I'm not thrilled about it since I will get killed on resale. I don't even know what SUV we would get. And I would still have to drive that SUV a bunch.
But either the BMW goes and a crappy SUV comes or the Volvo goes and a decent SUV comes in.
Ah, another five-year plan. I was beginning to get worried that we don't have much waffling left to waffle over as everybody settles in to their favorite cars for the long haul...
A couple of years back I vowed to quit posting my waffling. I'll just post pics when (if) I get it - unless I have specific questions while researching.
lemming
06-08-2009, 05:11 PM
You guys are looking at it the wrong way. Ideally I'd add the crappy jeep (or other crappy SUV) as a 4th car. But that's not happening.
The reality is that 95% of the time all we need is a roomy, AWD family car. For the other 5% of the time, all we need is a basic back-up car (that can seat 4).
Keeping my nice BMW all this time has been a luxury. But despite what seemed wasteful, people understood. I like cars, and my sporty BMW was my fun car - despite the sporty wagon and all.
That the wagon has some deficiencies and SUV's can fill those is not new to us. No SUV can touch the V70R most of the time, but a nice SUV still would have been a LOT more than what we paid for the V70R. So we took the deal and the great car. Now we realize that it is a bit of a pain and an inconvenience and think we can afford a few $k to buy a crappy jeep to solve the R's limitations.
Realistically, all we need is the Volvo and the Jeep. At that point the ZHP is 100% a luxury. Just a fun car for me. My wife was ok with that. I wanted a Porsche. She complied. We now have a REALLY nice fun car.
But to keep the BMW as well seems crazy. There is not a single instance where the BMW would have been driven where the Jeep will be driven. The jeep merely spares the Volvo from some duties. That's all.
How do I justfy the BMW? A funs sportscar AND a fun commuter when neither is needed? Forgoe the $10K in savings and not get the jeep so we still have the same inconveniences as before? It's a hard sell.
There's selling the Volvo and getting a decent SUV. I suppose that's an alternative. I'm not thrilled about it since I will get killed on resale. I don't even know what SUV we would get. And I would still have to drive that SUV a bunch.
But either the BMW goes and a crappy SUV comes or the Volvo goes and a decent SUV comes in.
the way things are going, i'd really back your idea to keep the V70, the 987S and then something "different".
am hovering damn close to the 4 car gig once again, but it's pretty hard to justify. ultimately, it makes no logical sense and is only for the heart. the head says "bad idea".
all of this waffling really changes, i think, when gasoline hits $3.50 per gallon. then it really helps one 'focus' on the must-haves and the nice-to-haves.
But to keep the BMW as well seems crazy. There is not a single instance where the BMW would have been driven where the Jeep will be driven. The jeep merely spares the Volvo from some duties. That's all.
I obviously don't mean to second-guess; you seem pretty sure that you need a Jeep, even if I don't really understand why. I'll say this, though--having driven some Jeeps and having driven some (many) BMWs, for me the difference would come down to this: I would never drive the Jeep unless I had absolutely, positively no choice, and even then I would probably walk instead. That means that my wife would have to drive the Jeep, because I'd always take the Volvo. Since my wife would never stand for that, the Jeep would just sit in our driveway, rusting. On the other hand, the BMW I would drive randomly, for fun, even if I also had a Porsche.
A couple of years back I vowed to quit posting my waffling. I'll just post pics when (if) I get it - unless I have specific questions while researching.
That's no fun. Half the reason to come here is to live vicariously through (and attempt to poke holes in) the perseverating of others.
I obviously don't mean to second-guess; you seem pretty sure that you need a Jeep, even if I don't really understand why. I'll say this, though--having driven some Jeeps and having driven some (many) BMWs, for me the difference would come down to this: I would never drive the Jeep unless I had absolutely, positively no choice, and even then I would probably walk instead. That means that my wife would have to drive the Jeep, because I'd always take the Volvo. Since my wife would never stand for that, the Jeep would just sit in our driveway, rusting. On the other hand, the BMW I would drive randomly, for fun, even if I also had a Porsche.
I understand. But a heairy dog, a super low wagon, and a $10K makes for an argument.
wdc330i
06-08-2009, 06:16 PM
That's no fun. Half the reason to come here is to live vicariously through (and attempt to poke holes in) the perseverating of others.
I was just going to post the same thoughts...
John V
06-08-2009, 06:28 PM
I understand. But a heairy dog, a super low wagon, and a $10K makes for an argument.
You seem dead set on a Jeep, for reasons I can't fathom. Why would you prefer it over something that is more suited to what you will do with it (i.e. something more car-like, like a CR-V or Pilot)? Those vehicles drive so much smoother and are so much more efficient it seems like a no-brainer to me.
That and regardless of what you think about having an on-call mechanic for the JGC, it's likely to be a lot less dependable than ... something else.
You seem dead set on a Jeep, for reasons I can't fathom. Why would you prefer it over something that is more suited to what you will do with it (i.e. something more car-like, like a CR-V or Pilot)? Those vehicles drive so much smoother and are so much more efficient it seems like a no-brainer to me.
That and regardless of what you think about having an on-call mechanic for the JGC, it's likely to be a lot less dependable than ... something else.
And a CR-V can be had with a stick, too, IIRC.
And a CR-V can be had with a stick, too, IIRC.
Sadly, this is not the case.
SARAFIL
06-08-2009, 07:26 PM
Sadly, this is not the case.
You can get older ones with a stick... I'm not sure when they switched, but I think I am almost positive that I took one of those as a trade once. I know the new ones are auto only.
You seem dead set on a Jeep, for reasons I can't fathom. Why would you prefer it over something that is more suited to what you will do with it (i.e. something more car-like, like a CR-V or Pilot)? Those vehicles drive so much smoother and are so much more efficient it seems like a no-brainer to me.
That and regardless of what you think about having an on-call mechanic for the JGC, it's likely to be a lot less dependable than ... something else.
I'm not. But what do I care about how well it drives? For the same reasons I almost got a wrangler, I won't be taking it very far. And when I do, it will mostly be because the roads are not great.
I'd consider a 4Runner, but they hold their value too well and I don't want something THAT old.
The CRV just seems flimsy and gutless - and roomless. Again for the seldom used vehicle for tough/crap jobs and shit weather, I want something that will not get stuck.
You can get older ones with a stick... I'm not sure when they switched, but I think I am almost positive that I took one of those as a trade once. I know the new ones are auto only.
Yup. I think they got rid of the stick option when the new (current) body style came out.
Oh, that's dumb. Another reason to hate Honda.
The Tiguan can be had with a stick, but only in the meanest, no sunroof spec.
John V
06-08-2009, 09:39 PM
Yeah, the latest CR-Vs can't be had with a stick. But you can't get a stick in a JGC, or a Pilot, or a newer 4Runner either.
What do you care how well it drives? Uhm, I dunno, because you're going to end up driving the thing from time to time, and why get a vehicle that sucks at doing the things you're going to be doing with it? From your earlier posts, you're concerned about this vehicle being able to handle some stuff and some rough roads. You don't need, or want, a JGC for that. You may think they're big inside - they're not. They're very space-inefficient from what I saw in my friend's truck.
Okay, so the CR-V is too wimpy for you. I can dig that. If you're going to tolerate clumsy handling, at least get something CHEAP and get a regular Cherokee. Those things are cheap and simple enough that they seem like a bargain even considering that they're clumsy and old. And they seem pretty indestructible. Not so the Grand Cherokee.
The irony of it all is that the Volvo could have been had with a manual...
Don't think for a second my wife hasn't heard that A LOT.
Sharp11
06-08-2009, 09:56 PM
The irony of it all is that the Volvo could have been had with a manual...
Every so often, Stuka makes a sensible post :)
Sharp11
06-08-2009, 10:00 PM
I'd love to be FC's therapist - you could see him week after week and never have to work hard - just ask him for an illogical rundown of what his car thoughts are this week.
Trading out your perfectly nice and paid for ZHP, the one you love to drive, for a crappy old jeep you know you'll hate to drive? That ought to kill 45 minutes of psycho analysis.
Yeah, the latest CR-Vs can't be had with a stick. But you can't get a stick in a JGC, or a Pilot, or a newer 4Runner either.
What do you care how well it drives? Uhm, I dunno, because you're going to end up driving the thing from time to time, and why get a vehicle that sucks at doing the things you're going to be doing with it? From your earlier posts, you're concerned about this vehicle being able to handle some stuff and some rough roads. You don't need, or want, a JGC for that. You may think they're big inside - they're not. They're very space-inefficient from what I saw in my friend's truck.
Okay, so the CR-V is too wimpy for you. I can dig that. If you're going to tolerate clumsy handling, at least get something CHEAP and get a regular Cherokee. Those things are cheap and simple enough that they seem like a bargain even considering that they're clumsy and old. And they seem pretty indestructible. Not so the Grand Cherokee.
My brother has a Cherokee that I recommended for him. And he is happy with it. And it's a fine car. But plain cherokees (late model, reasonable mileage) have a disproportionately high resale. Also, it is much more unsafe. FWIW, the jeep I'm looking at has a nice big motor whereas my brother's car can't get out of his own way. Not too important, but I'll take it for when hauling stuff.
The JGC isn't big, but the gen-1 CRV is tiny. Plus I find it funny that the JGC seems to have such a bad rep in thsi place, when they are EVERYWHERE in NE and lots of newer ones that were competing with crossovers and other refined competition. The people I know who have them, love them.:dunno:
Anyhow, if I drive it and it just feels like crap, I'll reconsider.
I'd love to be FC's therapist - you could see him week after week and never have to work hard - just ask him for an illogical rundown of what his car thoughts are this week.
Trading out your perfectly nice and paid for ZHP, the one you love to drive, for a crappy old jeep you know you'll hate to drive? That ought to kill 45 minutes of psycho analysis.
Damn, people need to learn to read.:rolleyes:
John V
06-08-2009, 10:09 PM
Why are you comparing a gen-1 CR-V to a Grand Cherokee?
The gen-2 trucklets are very nice. Yes they're 4-bangers and yes they're not the most masculine vehicles but damn... they are practical, roomy, cheap to operate and insure, and quite safe. Plus they drive like a car. Sporty? No. But way sportier than a JGC.
I give up.
Yeah, the latest CR-Vs can't be had with a stick. But you can't get a stick in a JGC, or a Pilot, or a newer 4Runner either.
What do you care how well it drives? Uhm, I dunno, because you're going to end up driving the thing from time to time, and why get a vehicle that sucks at doing the things you're going to be doing with it? From your earlier posts, you're concerned about this vehicle being able to handle some stuff and some rough roads. You don't need, or want, a JGC for that. You may think they're big inside - they're not. They're very space-inefficient from what I saw in my friend's truck.
Okay, so the CR-V is too wimpy for you. I can dig that. If you're going to tolerate clumsy handling, at least get something CHEAP and get a regular Cherokee. Those things are cheap and simple enough that they seem like a bargain even considering that they're clumsy and old. And they seem pretty indestructible. Not so the Grand Cherokee.
1) There was a manual trans option on the 95 JGC
2) Surprisingly enough, a decent JGC can be had for less than a decent "regular" cherokee
3) I agree with you, and I own a JGC
iateyourcheese
06-08-2009, 11:49 PM
We've been pretty happy with our Subaru Forester XT. It's the turbo one that is available with a manual transmission. It's been great in the snow (lived in Indiana near Chicago before moving to snow less Missouri). 80k miles and no major service has been needed. My wife really wanted the CR-V until she took one of these for a drive.
Oh, and:
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachments/comparison-wrx-vs-world/31429d1087867940-forester-xt-vs-350z-350z.jpg
It does get pretty poor gas mileage and has a small fuel tank. It's easy to chip the thing up to 270 hp, but that's not going to help with fuel economy.
3LOU5
06-09-2009, 12:10 AM
....
Anyhow, if I drive it and it just feels like crap, I'll reconsider.
If the driving feel is anywhere near like that Wrangler I rented, you are going to HATE (http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showpost.php?p=76139&postcount=3) it.
:ack:
rumatt
06-09-2009, 02:49 AM
Damn, people need to learn to read.:rolleyes:
In all fairness to Sharp, there is an awful lot of reading to keep up with. :lol::p
Don't think for a second my wife hasn't heard that A LOT.
:celebrat:
In 2005, I rented an almost new JGC to drive around Colorado. It was an absolutely terrible drive (at the time I owned a zhp). It took me 3 days to get it down to kick it down a gear (highly nonlinear throttle resistance). Going up to Vail pass, it was stuck in some high gear and I couldn't break 60mph with 18-wheelers pulling out to pass me. Fun, fun, fun... I'd take the 1.5L Daihatsu Terios (rented in Costa Rica, 5MT) over that...
Anyway... All those aside, I have nothing against keeping the volvo. Comfy, roomy, awd and with warranty and power, it's the perfect northeast family-mobile.
I think you may sell the zhp, as you have your new indulgence, that's fine. What you don't quite get yet is that those cars are very different and are going to feel different for daily duty. For bad weather and other situations (>50% of the time where you live) you're going to end up taking that whatever-else that you bought.
Whatever you get for <$10k is very likely going to be a POS. We got very lucky with our Honda Civic Si at 80k miles, but it took months to find and select. We took a couple of months to find gf's impreza, also with a <$10k constraint and ended up with a troublesome car even though it only had 9years/40k miles at purchase.
Another problem you have is your mental image of the zhp. You view it as your cream puff baby, but the market and perhaps the reality is that it's a 60k/6-7yr old e46. It's not that nice or fancy a car anymore (on paper), so it is, in fact, very far from an indulgence. You can still sell it at 16k or whatever you get for it and buy a POS for $8k, but you'll be swallowing a major downgrade and that $8k car is likely going to require more maintenance while providing less safety/comfort.
I think the crowd here (except perhaps the jeeper) just doesn't understand what it is that the v70R cannot do. It's spacious and awd. So it's undercarriage plastic scrapes on sth once in a while, mostly snow and sometimes perhaps dirt. Just take it slow. Where do you go out of your MA suburb? It's not like you live in the Mexican Baja.
FC, I forget, have you driven a JGC?
Look, I'm not saying I don't sympathize with what everyone is saying. Of course a JGC (or 4Runner/Pathfinder/Explorer/Tahoe/whetever) is going to drive like shit compared to luxury sedans or crossovers. But I don't mind that. The car won't go in the hwy for long trips.
First let's just cover what I would want the 3rd car to do and how the BMW is a poor fit for that. I want a car that can take my dog and I won't care about the interior looking like crap (that almost requires a tan interior). Obviously the BMW is out. I want to be able to take messy loads. BMW can't do that either. I want it to be able to handle the brutal parking lots and dirt-roads in parks/playgrounds/yard dump/etc. I want it to get out of my house and past a 2'+ snowbank in case of a winter emergency (doesn't take much snowfall to create big snow banks). It's also nice to have a shitty car you don't mind leaving at a train station all day, or in a dent-prone parking lot. Obviously the BMW can't do those either.
Hard to argue that the 3rd vehicle needs to be different from what the BMW offers. Practically speaking, the BMW offers absolutely nothing that the V70R does. And I already have that car and it's not going anywhere. I was serious when I said (back in my JK waflling) that the wrangler (or any SUV) offered much more practicality and usabilty and was more of a necessity than a sportscar. This hasn't changed.
Of course a 6-8K SUV is going to be a POS. But the ~$10K cash out form the BMW sale is not peanuts. The BMW also uses very expensive tires, oil, and any other part it may need. The POS car will also depreciate less than the BMW.
Finally, and this really trumps all else, that's the deal I made with my wife and was The Plan.
Now, you guys want to tell me the JGC sucks so badly that a school bus handles better and I should just get an F150? Fine, let's have that argument. But when a bunch of smart people tell me I should keep my BMW given what I would want a 3rd car to do, I just have trouble understanding that logic.
The argument that it worked well enough until now is not worth much because I have an uber fun car now (which was all the BMW was really doing all this time) and we always bitched and moaned that we didn't have a crappy SUV. We were going to get that SUV with or without the P-car. So you see, the BMW is not being swapped for the SUV. It's being swapped for the Boxster. It always was.
Back to the JGC sucks thing. Again, it may indeed suck. But it has to be a relative suckage since lots of normal people have them and many people love them. I happen to be looking at a pimped-out JGC, so it can't be that bad. Especially considering the specific use it will get. But we'll see.
wdc330i
06-09-2009, 08:53 AM
Oh, that's dumb. Another reason to hate Honda.
The Tiguan can be had with a stick, but only in the meanest, no sunroof spec.
RAV comes in a stick. But, it's a Toyota.
For the money the ZHP is worth, I rather get a cheap, used stick-shift JK unlimited. It would be far more useful/different/cool/fun for the family.
...man, my kid LOVES wranglers. It's pretty funny, actually.
EDIT: Nevermind, JK's went up in price a LOT since the winter.
Look, I'm not saying I don't sympathize with what everyone is saying. Of course a JGC (or 4Runner/Pathfinder/Explorer/Tahoe/whetever) is going to drive like shit compared to luxury sedans or crossovers. But I don't mind that. The car won't go in the hwy for long trips.
First let's just cover what I would want the 3rd car to do and how the BMW is a poor fit for that. I want a car that can take my dog and I won't care about the interior looking like crap (that almost requires a tan interior). Obviously the BMW is out. I want to be able to take messy loads. BMW can't do that either. I want it to be able to handle the brutal parking lots and dirt-roads in parks/playgrounds/yard dump/etc. I want it to get out of my house and past a 2'+ snowbank in case of a winter emergency (doesn't take much snowfall to create big snow banks). It's also nice to have a shitty car you don't mind leaving at a train station all day, or in a dent-prone parking lot. Obviously the BMW can't do those either.
Hard to argue that the 3rd vehicle needs to be different from what the BMW offers. Practically speaking, the BMW offers absolutely nothing that the V70R does. And I already have that car and it's not going anywhere. I was serious when I said (back in my JK waflling) that the wrangler (or any SUV) offered much more practicality and usabilty and was more of a necessity than a sportscar. This hasn't changed.
Of course a 6-8K SUV is going to be a POS. But the ~$10K cash out form the BMW sale is not peanuts. The BMW also uses very expensive tires, oil, and any other part it may need. The POS car will also depreciate less than the BMW.
Finally, and this really trumps all else, that's the deal I made with my wife and was The Plan.
Now, you guys want to tell me the JGC sucks so badly that a school bus handles better and I should just get an F150? Fine, let's have that argument. But when a bunch of smart people tell me I should keep my BMW given what I would want a 3rd car to do, I just have trouble understanding that logic.
The argument that it worked well enough until now is not worth much because I have an uber fun car now (which was all the BMW was really doing all this time) and we always bitched and moaned that we didn't have a crappy SUV. We were going to get that SUV with or without the P-car. So you see, the BMW is not being swapped for the SUV. It's being swapped for the Boxster. It always was.
Back to the JGC sucks thing. Again, it may indeed suck. But it has to be a relative suckage since lots of normal people have them and many people love them. I happen to be looking at a pimped-out JGC, so it can't be that bad. Especially considering the specific use it will get. But we'll see.
Wait. Why aren't you just keeping the BMW?
I kid, I kid.
But to JV's point, I think a soft-roader like a CR-V or even an Escape/Tribute (which can be had for peanuts, and can also be had with a stick at least in older, 4 cyl. guise) would be a better fit than a JGC.
Wait. Why aren't you just keeping the BMW?
I kid, I kid.
But to JV's point, I think a soft-roader like a CR-V or even an Escape/Tribute (which can be had for peanuts, and can also be had with a stick at least in older, 4 cyl. guise) would be a better fit than a JGC.
I think that's a fair point and I will go check one out this week.
BahnBaum
06-09-2009, 09:36 AM
The more things change, the more things stay the same.
;)
Alex
wdc330i
06-09-2009, 09:36 AM
I think that's a fair point and I will go check one out this week.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=262569469&dealer_id=77112&car_year=1997&rdm=1244554374684&num_records=25&model=4RUN&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1997&engine=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=100&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&sownerid=93471&make=TOYOTA&color=&keywords_display=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=mileageASC&seller_type=b&position=top&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=yearASC&address=20910&advanced=y&end_year=2002&transmission=&doors=&max_price=&cardist=87&standard=false
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=262569469&dealer_id=77112&car_year=1997&rdm=1244554374684&num_records=25&model=4RUN&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1997&engine=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=100&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&sownerid=93471&make=TOYOTA&color=&keywords_display=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=mileageASC&seller_type=b&position=top&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=yearASC&address=20910&advanced=y&end_year=2002&transmission=&doors=&max_price=&cardist=87&standard=false
I've been looking at those too. But as you can see, for more money, that's a 5 year oder vehicle.
Here's one for Stuka:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=262421531&dealer_id=553798&car_year=2001&rdm=1244555933857&model=ESCAPE&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1997&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=100&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&make=FORD&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=yearASC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=yearASC&address=20910&advanced=y&end_year=2005&doors=&transmission=Manual&max_price=&cardist=92&standard=false&rdpage=thumb
Here's one for Stuka:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=262421531&dealer_id=553798&car_year=2001&rdm=1244555933857&model=ESCAPE&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1997&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=100&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&make=FORD&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=yearASC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=yearASC&address=20910&advanced=y&end_year=2005&doors=&transmission=Manual&max_price=&cardist=92&standard=false&rdpage=thumb
Hehe. Actually, I know it has low miles but that still seems pretty pricey for a (yellow) 8 y.o. Escape.
-------------
It turns out, my co-worker has had a 4Runner for 10 years since new. He told me at the time he drove the 4Runner, (then new) 2nd-gen JGC, Pathfinder, and Explorer. He came away thinking the Explorer sucked, the Pathfinder was ok, the 4Runner was also ok, and the JGC was the nicer vehicle by far. He ended up not getting the Jeep because it was so expensive and because he trusted the 4Runner reliability. It paid off for him of course, but he says he would recommend the Jeep over the 4Runner for my use and the $$. Just a data point...
Hehe. Actually, I know it has low miles but that still seems pretty pricey for a (yellow) 8 y.o. Escape.
Yes, I was surprised by the extent to which Escapes appear to hold their value. Oddly, Escapes seem to command higher asking prices than do Tributes, despite (or perhaps because) of the fact that there are 10X more of them for sale. I guess the Blue Oval is worth something, at least when it comes to "trucks."
wdc330i
06-09-2009, 12:54 PM
Yes, I was surprised by the extent to which Escapes appear to hold their value. Oddly, Escapes seem to command higher asking prices than do Tributes, despite (or perhaps because) of the fact that there are 10X more of them for sale. I guess the Blue Oval is worth something, at least when it comes to "trucks."
There are some people who, for reasons of conscience or public appearance, must "buy American." My forner next door neighbor had an Escape for the simple reason that she worked for the AFL-CIO. Her husband's car was a Mazda....
Here's one for Stuka:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=262421531&dealer_id=553798&car_year=2001&rdm=1244555933857&model=ESCAPE&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1997&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=100&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&make=FORD&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=yearASC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=yearASC&address=20910&advanced=y&end_year=2005&doors=&transmission=Manual&max_price=&cardist=92&standard=false&rdpage=thumb
And it's a stick!!
And it's a stick!!
Yes, but you missed the best feature from the description:
THE FRONT SEATS RECLINE.
Wow--that's luxury. What the hell is this thing? An X5?
There are some people who, for reasons of conscience or public appearance, must "buy American." My forner next door neighbor had an Escape for the simple reason that she worked for the AFL-CIO. Her husband's car was a Mazda....
When in HS, my dad's store was near an apartment complex that was packed full of seniors/vets/etc. It was amazing to hear so often that people would not buy japanese as a result of WWII.
This is kind of interesting. Stick shift X5, 16K.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=259984874&dealer_id=587093&car_year=2003&rdm=1244568548242&model=X5&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1997&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=100&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&make=BMW&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=yearASC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=yearASC&address=20910&advanced=y&end_year=2005&doors=&transmission=Manual&max_price=&cardist=9&standard=false
Sure, it'd be basically an even swap for the 330, but it would do all the things you want the JGC to do and still be a BMW.
When in HS, my dad's store was near an apartment complex that was packed full of seniors/vets/etc. It was amazing to hear so often that people would not buy japanese as a result of WWII.
My father will not buy Japanese as a result of WWII.
When in HS, my dad's store was near an apartment complex that was packed full of seniors/vets/etc. It was amazing to hear so often that people would not buy japanese as a result of WWII.
The family of one of my wife's closest friends while growing up, who was/is Jewish, wouldn't buy German cars.
My wife's friend, as an adult, bought an Audi (back in '98) and caught hell from her parents.
This is kind of interesting. Stick shift X5, 16K.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=259984874&dealer_id=587093&car_year=2003&rdm=1244568548242&model=X5&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1997&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=100&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&make=BMW&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=yearASC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=yearASC&address=20910&advanced=y&end_year=2005&doors=&transmission=Manual&max_price=&cardist=9&standard=false
Sure, it'd be basically an even swap for the 330, but it would do all the things you want the JGC to do and still be a BMW.
See? Now we're talking. I still don't save the 10K, but it makes much more sense than keeping the 330i. I had no idea they were getting so cheap, but I guess it makes sense as they are as old as my car and sold for about as much new.
Damn you JST.
The family of one of my wife's closest friends while growing up, who was/is Jewish, wouldn't buy German cars.
My wife's friend, as an adult, bought an Audi (back in '98) and caught hell from her parents.
As long as we are on this conversation, while my dad won't buy Japanese, he really didn't understand my first wife's aversion to German cars (she is Jewish).
Meanwhile, my ex-wife's mother - the source of the rabid hatred of all things German in my ex-wife's personality - couldn't find a car she wanted to replace the string of Buicks she had driven, so . . . now she drives a 328xi.
The irony continues to kill me.
This is kind of interesting. Stick shift X5, 16K.
Sure, it'd be basically an even swap for the 330, but it would do all the things you want the JGC to do and still be a BMW.
My mechanic told me that the guys at Turner refer to older X5s as "piggy banks." Not only do they sort of look like piggy banks, but they also require regular expensive repairs.
That said, my mother has had four e53 X5s and all but one has been very reliable.
Damn you JST.
Here to help.
lupinsea
06-09-2009, 01:51 PM
I don't know what all the fuss was about. . . I certainly "get" FC's desire for a JGC or something along those lines.
As he said and as I understood way before he pointed it out, the ZHP has now been replaced with the Boxster as the pinical of sporty fun cars in his fleet. At point I don't really see why the ZHP should be kept. Need seating for 4? Take the V70R. Want to go blast around back roads and have fun, take the Boxster.
As for a JGC? I get that too. For a while now he's said he's wanted a higher clearance robust vehicle for crappy weather and poor road conditions. Sure, it's not offroading and other cars like a Forester or even the CR-Vs might fit the bill. But I don't think the JGCs are horrible. And honestly, if I'm plowing through snow banks to get our of the driveway or taking a car on some crappy muddy roads I'd much rather do it with the JGC's stronger body (or 4Runner, etc.) than some flyweight lifted car with a weak AWD system. Throw on some good AT tires like the BFG ATs or something and he'd be good to go for a wide variety of road conditions.
To me the price of gas is a non-issue with the JGC purchase since the vehicle would see such little use. They take regular gas instead of premium so there's a little cost savings. All things factored in they don't cost that much more in fuel. Last week I drove my crappy MPG Wrangler to work for the entire week due to nice convertible weather. With it's crappy 14 mpg economy it only cost me a wopping extra $10 in gas for the week. :eek: Waaaa end of the world! Considering this was the first full week of commuting I've done in the Wrangler in the last 6 months it's cost me an extra $10 in 6 months of Wrangler ownership for commuting duties. Waaaa! The rest of the time it just sits there until I use it occasionally on the weekends. And when I use it on the weekends I'm usually doing something with it that neither the ZHP or the Volvo wagon could ever do.
I don't think FC is under any illusions on the ride and handling quality of the JGCs wither. He's driven the JKs and the JGCs ride better than those. If he was fine with the JK then I'm sure the JGC won't be a problem. And if any of you guys have problems keeping a JGC in it's own lane then wow, what sucky car control skills you have. I can guarantee you my Wrangler probably sucks the bottom of the barrel in contemporary, or even antient car handling capabilities and I have zero problem controling it on the road, and I know I'm not any where near the worlds greatest driver. The JGCs are even better. I can only think some of the comments here are complete hyperbole to try to make a point.
I actually like the way the Jeeps drive and ride. A big reason it that it DOESN'T FEEL LIKE A CAR. If I wanted to drive something that felt like a car I'd drive a car. I like the fact it feels more truck-like. The same goes for the JGC and some other SUVs. IMO, I think too many SUVs are trying to drive and ride like cars and it's sucking the character out of them, their truck-like character. So maybe this is OK with FC, he's stated numerous times he's fine with it, or probably would be fine with it.
The JGC would be a fine option, though not the only one. It's a decent size, not to big, not too small (though on the smaller side for SUVs). It has a healthy towing capability for home-owner uses. It has better ground clearance than the cross overs on a more robust chassis and a significantly stronger drive train and can take abuse better. And the prices are quite good on them for a good value.
I've test driven an X5 with an MT. As big a manual fan as I am, it just doesn't work. 1st gear is super short and 5th is noisy on the highway as well. Sarafil had commented on that, I had to test drive to find out for myself.
I know someone (he must be about 60 or so) who won't have a german car for similar reasons. He doesn't strike me as too devout a Jew as he's a scientist, but I certainly understand.
I've test driven an X5 with an MT. As big a manual fan as I am, it just doesn't work. 1st gear is super short and 5th is noisy on the highway as well. Sarafil had commented on that, I had to test drive to find out for myself.
I know someone (he must be about 60 or so) who won't have a german car for similar reasons. He doesn't strike me as too devout a Jew as he's a scientist, but I certainly understand.
I've heard the same, but someone told me once that the 6spd in the more recent X5s was better. If I were looking at getting an e53, I'd rather have the V8 than the stick - if I'm going to have to put up with an SUV, it might as well be fast in a straight line.
John V
06-09-2009, 01:59 PM
I guess I have crappy car control skills. On the freeway doing 70+MPH, the ones I've driven are always bobbing and weaving and bucking around all over the place. Blah. I hate trucks when they're not doing truckly things (wheeling, towing, hauling, etc).
If FC wants a truck there is nothing wrong with him buying a truck. I'm just suggesting that based on what he has said about how he wants to use it, a JGC makes very little sense. Emotional car purchase.. understood.. no big deal.
And I never once said you should keep the ZHP. E46s are blah. ;)
The irony continues to kill me.
Here's another ironic example:
My stepdad vowed he'd never buy a German car because of the holocaust. Then about 12 years ago, my mom and him call to say they just bought a BMW Z3.
I was a bit surprised and asked why they bought a German brand... My stepdad said that he didn't buy a German car because the "B" in BMW stood for "British" :lol:
And this is about 5 years AFTER I had worked for BMW in Munich...
My mom has now had 3 BMWs and he's also had 3...
As for a JGC? I get that too. For a while now he's said he's wanted a higher clearance robust vehicle for crappy weather and poor road conditions. Sure, it's not offroading and other cars like a Forester or even the CR-Vs might fit the bill. But I don't think the JGCs are horrible. And honestly, if I'm plowing through snow banks to get our of the driveway or taking a car on some crappy muddy roads I'd much rather do it with the JGC's stronger body (or 4Runner, etc.) than some flyweight lifted car with a weak AWD system. Throw on some good AT tires like the BFG ATs or something and he'd be good to go for a wide variety of road conditions.
I get some of your argument. The heavy frame/truck nature appeals to me at times as well. And this may even be what FC needs, who knows.
I also get the keeping in lane bit. Currently (spending time with my mother), I'm driving around my late father's 1980's russian car, and believe me it's a challenge bordering on fun to keep it in modern traffic. I should do a post/thread on this automobile (on which I learnt to drive) at some point.
From your comments, it seems that you haven't driven a subaru or an audi on poor (read 12" or more) road conditions. The light awd cars that you put down are far more secure on snowy highways than 4x4's, and not just due to general handling improvement either. The true 4wd's have some advantages in slow speeds in snow banks, true. That said, I've blown through 2ft in both subarus and audis (newer generation xi's count as well), and nearly 1ft with my rwd bmw. But when it really counts, i.e. going 50 on a snowy highway, the good awd cars are untouchable. BTW, from what I've seen, volvo's awd doesn't count. For blowing through snow banks, it is not split symmetrically enough being very close to FWD. There are numerous videos that demonstrate this.
lupinsea
06-09-2009, 03:00 PM
Might be different snow conditions, too.
When we get snow around here its more of a wet clumpy snow that tends to stick to itself and pack up in front of your axle if you're negotiating side streets that haven't been plowed or are up in the mountains traveling the passes. Sometimes you need a bit of weight and momentum to bash through that, especially if it's piled up.
I've driven light weight AWD cars before in the snow. They do well enough in general but the lower clearances aren't helpful and it's easy to catch the front bumpers on even small piles of snow that have slightly melted and refrozen into a rock hard lump that'll tear off a bumper.
If you're talking about packed snowy roads such as highways then sure, I can see an AWD car. . . and FC has that in his V70R. I'm not sure about their AWD effectiveness, I only know that our FWD V50 was absofockinglutely worthless in the snow. It couldn't get more than 70 ft from our house. A major problem was the ground clearance as the underside woudld get hung up on the crusty snow. But I seem to recall FC appreciating the traction he did have with the V70R's AWD system.
And FWIW, the 1999-2004 JGCs have a curb weight of 3670 lb.
For comparison, it's not bad for an SUV and quite comparable to other AWD cars. Or within a heavy passenger and assorted trunk junk of their weight.
3646 lb. = V70R
3770 lb. = A4 Avant w/ AWD and 3.2 L
3164 lb. = '99 CR-V w/ AWD
3415 lb. = '09 CR-v EX (mid range)
3400 lb. = '06 RAV 4 (up to 3600+ lb.)
3306 lb. = '03-08 Forester
3385 lb. = '04 330xi
Now, compare to other SUVs:
4652 lb. = BMW X5
4000 lb. = BMW X3
3895 lb. = '97 4Runner
John V
06-09-2009, 03:19 PM
Not that it matters a whole lot, but what you posted is a bit misleading.
If you look at the 4WD grand cherokees, the 1999-200x trucks are 3970lbs with the I6, 4041 with the 4.7L V8, and they go up if you get the Limited or Overland. models.
Anyway, I think that what makes the trucks feel so clunky and ponderous on roads is the live front axle. Sure, it's what you want for heavy use off road, but for an on-road vehicle for making trips to Costco... not so much.
John
BahnBaum
06-09-2009, 03:24 PM
I like my JGC.
Alex
Well, I knew lup would understand.
Sure, I've always wanted a Jeep. And I did actually look at JGC new back in '02. That I can buy a car that was nearly 40K then for 6K now sounds good to me.
I was thinking about the X5... I can stand MY old BMW with 60K miles. Someone else's? I dunno. BMW parts are expensive. Given the reliability tidbit from Zach, I'm not so sure anymore. Anyone can fix the JGC for cheap and with cheap parts.
I like my JGC.
Alex
You've got the steroidal one, right?
Not that it matters a whole lot, but what you posted is a bit misleading.
If you look at the 4WD grand cherokees, the 1999-200x trucks are 3970lbs with the I6, 4041 with the 4.7L V8, and they go up if you get the Limited or Overland. models.
Anyway, I think that what makes the trucks feel so clunky and ponderous on roads is the live front axle. Sure, it's what you want for heavy use off road, but for an on-road vehicle for making trips to Costco... not so much.
John
...for making trips to Costco in a blizzard? 'Cause otherwise I'd take the R.
But yes, the JGC with all they toys is closer to 4300lbs. Still pretty light. That's alsmot M3 cab weight. ;) Having over 300lb-ft helps. It supposedly does 0-60 in 7 seconds.
BahnBaum
06-09-2009, 03:37 PM
You've got the steroidal one, right?
Huh?!? What?!? Did you say something?!?
Alex
You've got the steroidal one, right?
That thing is awesome. I saw a guy tailgate one on the left lane trying to be a dick (the Jeep was moving quite fast already - I was in the middle lane probably doing 75+). The dude just stepped on the gas and embarassed him. It was very funny.
Huh?!? What?!? Did you say something?!?
Alex
:lol:
That thing is awesome. I saw a guy tailgate one on the left lane trying to be a dick (the Jeep was moving quite fast already - I was in the middle lane probably doing 75+). The dude just stepped on the gas and embarassed him. It was very funny.
Nice. Yeah, they're stupid fast. Not my cup of meat, but I can appreciate the appeal of anything that leaves your kidneys in the back seat when you lean on the go switch.
John V
06-09-2009, 03:50 PM
...for making trips to Costco in a blizzard? 'Cause otherwise I'd take the R.
For making trips to Costco in a blizzard I'd rather have something stable, with a relatively low center of gravity but some decent ride height, and a good set of tires.
For what it's worth, we drove back to Colorado Springs from Winter Park last year in my brother's 328xi in what people in your neck of the woods would call a "blizzard." I was a hell of a lot happier about it than he was driving a rental SUV.
JV, apparently FC & Lup encounter blizzards that are unfathomable to us awd lightweight fans... Somehow, all these years of seeking out snow and I must have failed.
John V
06-09-2009, 04:04 PM
All these years driving up from Kalispell, MT to Fernie, BC... no idea how we survived.
JV, apparently FC & Lup encounter blizzards that are unfathomable to us awd lightweight fans... Somehow, all these years of seeking out snow and I must have failed.
It's not about what's on the road. It's about trying to get to a house, business, street that has a 2' tall snowbank on it. It's about the huge chunks of ice - which does not happen in ski mountains, the rockies or Canada because it remains very cold. Boston can get lots of snow, get a 40F day the next day that starts melting everything, and then flash freeze that night. It happens.
And yeah, if I were buying one car, or even two, I would not buy an SUV. It will be my 3rd car. It's about the convenience of not having to put up with crap. Last winter was brutal. Some winters are mild. That's Boston.
Last year I got home more (than once) to one of those massive snowbanks. The Volvo had no shot of getting in the house. One time my wife and kid had to stay in the car while I went in to get the snowblower and clear a path just big enough of the street plow to get by. The second time, the baby was wailing and I had to bring him in making my way through 15" of snow. Did I "get by"? Sure. Would it have been easier to plow through all the crap, pull up beside the garage door and get the family inside without drama? Um, yeah.
I get up 1 hour earlier when it snows overnight to clear my driveway. I don't mind. What bothers me is when I get to my parents house or daycare (happened once) and they are not plowed or they are but a street plow just went by and I can't get in.
It's not about AWD cars. It's about the V70R (and ZHP for that matter) being very low cars.
Look. I don't care that you guys don't understand. What sort of bothers me is that you (by default) assume I'm too stupid to not know the difference. As I were some sort of wuss who can't live without an SUV. I've never have owned one. I just had AWD 3 years ago.Until then I knew nothign but RWD. And for many years I didn't even have traction control. Some winters, not even snow tires. So please, spare me the I'm a shitty winter driver comments.
When you are young and single you don't give a shit. It's fun, it's no big deal. When you have a newborn in the car, running out of fuel, getting stuck, etc, is no fun at all.
I know it may be hard to believe around here, but unlike snow, I'm not dumb.
It's not about what's on the road. It's about trying to get to a house, business, street that has a 2' tall snowbank on it. It's about the huge chunks of ice - which does not happen in ski mountains, the rockies or Canada becasue it remains very cold. Boston can get lots of snow, get a 40F day the next day that starts melting everything, and then flash freeze that night. It happens.
And yeah, if I were buying ONE car, or even 2, I would nto buy an SUV. It will be my 3rd. It's about the convenience of not having to put up with crap. Last winter was brutal. Some winters are mild. That's Boston.
My first winter in Boston ('85-'86) I remember a week of the most bone-chilling cold windy days I'd ever experienced... I think the wind chill temp was somewhere around -50 for a couple of days. Of course, that's child's play for Alaskans and Minnesotans, but still... Brr!
lemming
06-09-2009, 04:44 PM
For making trips to Costco in a blizzard I'd rather have something stable, with a relatively low center of gravity but some decent ride height, and a good set of tires.
For what it's worth, we drove back to Colorado Springs from Winter Park last year in my brother's 328xi in what people in your neck of the woods would call a "blizzard." I was a hell of a lot happier about it than he was driving a rental SUV.
i tend to agree with you.
i have tried, and mostly succeeded, in getting around in the past two years in the R56 with the standard crap all season tires. i've been okay.
i can't really speak to the snowbank issue or the lack of plowing, though --even then, the FX35 gets around just fine and that's far from a hardcore awd system.
:dunno:
i can't really speak to the snowbank issue or the lack of plowing, though --even then, the FX35 gets around just fine and that's far from a hardcore awd system.
:dunno:
Ground clearance is all I need. But once I go the crappy SUV route, I'll take robust over flimsy. Batter safe than sorry.
Oh man, I can't imagine all the poor audi/subaru drivers who'll be stuck this winter in Boston. I really feel for them.
<end of snide comments and pokes>
lemming
06-09-2009, 04:55 PM
Ground clearance is all I need. But once I go the crappy SUV route, I'll take robust over flimsy. Batter safe than sorry.
'batter' is about right.
;)
Oh man, I can't imagine all the poor audi/subaru drivers who'll be stuck this winter in Boston. I really feel for them.
<end of snide comments and pokes>
The V70R is lower than any Audi and has a very expensive intercooler right on the chin. And I have seen AWD cars stuck. I've never been stuck in the R. Ironically, I did get stuck in the Sabaru (with winter tires, no less). It took a while to get free.
Cities are cleaned quickly. Minor residential roads are not. I shoveled my way through with the shovel I keep in the BMW, which has also helped other people get unstuck.
Sharp11
06-09-2009, 05:14 PM
The conditions, as described by FC, make me wonder how he survived for so long with his ZHP and Volvo :dunno:
The conditions, as described by FC, make me wonder how he survived for so long with his ZHP and Volvo :dunno:
I lived longer with just a nose heavy RWD 190E with no traction control. Went skiing with it many times too. Had an even crappier 190D while in school in Worcester - with no winter tires.
clyde
06-09-2009, 06:12 PM
[clyde points out that he has done zero FC/FC's Plan bashing in this thread]
I only changed the thread title.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
BahnBaum
06-09-2009, 06:24 PM
It's either this or politics. Not sure which is more frustrating.
Alex
It's either this or politics. Not sure which is more frustrating.
Alex
Not forget bashing the Autoblog Bot.
I will point out that this thread has had no waffling. To the contrary, it has just been a steadfast defense of my plan. ;)
It clearly entertains you guys, so go for it. I don't care.
lupinsea
06-09-2009, 06:53 PM
JV, apparently FC & Lup encounter blizzards that are unfathomable to us awd lightweight fans... Somehow, all these years of seeking out snow and I must have failed.
No, it's not that. It's as FC pointed out, that you'll get snow, it melts slightly, then re-freezes and basically turns as hard as a rock. Go drive into a concrete curb and let me know how your front air dam holds up? And it sounds like in FC's case these snow banks piled up by passing snow plows are common in front of a lot of curb cuts for driveways and parking lots. Having something that can scramble up or through them without damage would be helpful. Wasn't there a fellow 'mudgeon who trashed his lower bumper on his E46 after hitting some snow? Thought I remember reading that on here a year or two ago.
Seattle doesn't really see all that much in the way of snow and when we get it it usually doesn't stick around. This winter was very odd in the amount and duration of our snow storm. But one thing was certain, most of the first vehicles out on the roads were those with additional ground clearance beating pathways in the snow. The further out from fresh snow fall (the more the snow on the street was beaten down) the more you saw the other cars.
I honestly don't understand this blind bias many on this board have against SUVs to say nothing of FC's plan to get one. Sure, I get there are options and preferences but there is a place and usefulness for an SUV and I don't see the big deal. All things given I'd prefer using an SUV for winter travel than a car. I appreciate what they have to offer. One of the best snow vehicles I've been in was my old Cherokee (I actually preferred it for urban snow driving to my Wrangler or any other car I've driven in snow).
Look. I don't care that you guys don't understand. What sort of bothers me is that you (by default) assume I'm too stupid to not know the difference. As I were some sort of wuss who can't live without an SUV. I've never have owned one. I just had AWD 3 years ago.Until then I knew nothign but RWD. And for many years I didn't even have traction control. Some winters, not even snow tires. So please, spare me the I'm a shitty winter driver comments.
:+1
Anyway, I think that what makes the trucks feel so clunky and ponderous on roads is the live front axle. Sure, it's what you want for heavy use off road, but for an on-road vehicle for making trips to Costco... not so much.
Having close to or over 300 lb. of unsprung axle and tire/wheel weight will do that.
Sure, a solid axle is not as desirable for the general uses FC has in mind but it's not something that would worry me much about an SUV for going down to Costco. I don't see these SUVs as on road performance machine, don't take corners fast, and generally drive around "normally" in them, and slow down in crappy weather, especially snow.
It really really doesn't matter than a JGC has a solid axle (as a positive or negative) for FC's planned scenario. The relative crappy handling in this conditions just won't be mattering much and his use of the vehicle in more benign conditions is going to be limited.
And the 2004 and older JGCs and original Cherokees are the only SUVs on the market with solid axles. Everyone else (unforunately) has switched over to IFS which does indeed handle better if FC doesn't like the JGCs handling.
The JGC just seems to be at a great intersection of cost:capability:reliablity:utility:etc.
There are other options out there like the 4Runners which are just as capable but you're either paying more or it's an older vehicle. You can get a better handling SUV like an X5 but they have reliability problems and cost more, much more.
I think it would be great if FC can pick up his SUV for comparatively cheap. The 4.7L V7 JGC seems like a cool way to go and if he could get it for $6500-7k awesome, but if he could find another option to hammer down the cost even more (if the 4.0L I6's were significantly cheaper, or the Cherokees were significantly cheaper, it's a bonus they get better MPG, too) I'd root for that.
But the JGCs just seem like a very good bargain right now.
I think it would be great if FC can pick up his SUV for comparatively cheap. The 4.7L V7 JGC seems like a cool way to go and if he could get it for $6500-7k awesome, but if he could find another option to hammer down the cost even more (if the 4.0L I6's were significantly cheaper, or the Cherokees were significantly cheaper, it's a bonus they get better MPG, too) I'd root for that.
But the JGCs just seem like a very good bargain right now.
They are. We'd prefer leather interior for easier cleanups, and there are almost no limiteds with the I-6 nor nor laredos with leather. So, it sort of makes the decision for us. Still JGC have taken it in the gonads in the last year, so it's a cheap pick.
John V
06-09-2009, 07:19 PM
Hey man, you want an SUV, no worries. Nobody here ever called you dumb. I lived in Wisconsin for most of my life... then Cleveland. We had the snowbank problem too. Same with Cleveland. It was a bummer occasionally. Park the car, go grab the shovel, clear a path, drive in. It sounds like Boston really sucks at clearing the roads. I also never said an SUV was a bad idea. I said that a Grand Cherokee is a not the best idea given what you want to do with it. But you obviously really want one, so enjoy!
That car is absolutely the most beautiful Boxster I have ever seen ... I have never see it in white and OMG I am in love with it !!!
Congrats and I hope you are loving it !!!!
That car is absolutely the most beautiful Boxster I have ever seen ... I have never see it in white and OMG I am in love with it !!!
Congrats and I hope you are loving it !!!!
I am loving it. Thanks. Mom is staying home tomorrow with the kid(s) so I get to drive it to work.
I will take better pictures soon.
I drove it over the weekend and for a while it poured. Being able to open/close the top at up to 30mph makes it very efficient on the go ( I usually still pull over to a side street or brakedown lane). Nice to have a 'vert with such a good top: quiet, mostly rattle-free, elegant. It's great.
wdc330i
06-16-2009, 08:08 PM
I am loving it. Thanks. Mom is staying home tomorrow with the kid(s) so I get to drive it to work.
I will take better pictures soon.
I drove it over the weekend and for a while it poured. Being able to open/close the top at up to 30mph makes it very efficient on the go ( I usually still pull over to a side street or brakedown lane). Nice to have a 'vert with such a good top: quiet, mostly rattle-free, elegant. It's great.
I still have the 328 loaner convertible. Must be at a full stop with foot on the brake to operate the top. Not so for the 1er, which is a superior car.
Photos from right after it got its first wash at home. They are not very good, but they will have to do for now.
Josh (PA)
06-16-2009, 09:48 PM
Looks great! Congratulations. I for one really like the white.
I had my son (3.5 yrs) in his carseat in the back of the m3 tonight. He absolutely loves the top down on local rides. He calls it our "race car" I'm sure your little one(s) will enjoy occasional seat time with you, but I'm also sure you'll enjoy the quiet early morning alone time just scooting around listening to the engine sing. Has the wife driven it yet? Think she'll steal it from you?
Looks great! Congratulations. I for one really like the white.
I had my son (3.5 yrs) in his carseat in the back of the m3 tonight. He absolutely loves the top down on local rides. He calls it our "race car" I'm sure your little one(s) will enjoy occasional seat time with you, but I'm also sure you'll enjoy the quiet early morning alone time just scooting around listening to the engine sing. Has the wife driven it yet? Think she'll steal it from you?
Well, she is due for a C-section two weeks from today, so she is not feelin' driving around on a stiff sportscar. That said, she did love driving the '04 986S, so I'm sure she'll love it.
The ZHP has a nice exhaust, but nothing like this car. You really feel dumb having the radio on. All it does is take away from the experience.
she is not feelin' driving around on a stiff sportscar.
I thought you bought a boxster instead of an elise :dunno:
I thought you bought a boxster instead of an elise :dunno:
:mad2:
For a pregnant woman, the ZHP feels stiff.
clyde
06-16-2009, 10:41 PM
:mad2:
For a pregnant woman, the ZHP feels stiff.
Shoulda got a Mini
http://67.199.7.46/_media/imgs/articles2/a96674_simpledriving.jpg
clyde
06-16-2009, 10:54 PM
:mad2:
For a pregnant woman, the ZHP feels stiff.
Or maybe you shouldn't have cheaped out and gone whole hog instead :dunno:
http://englishrussia.com/images/golden_porsche/2.jpg
http://englishrussia.com/images/golden_porsche/3.jpg
40 pounds of gold plating
That has got to be some kind of tasteless oil money. Russia or Arabia?
clyde
06-17-2009, 08:21 AM
That has got to be some kind of tasteless oil money. Russia or Arabia?
the site was englishrussia.com
lemming
06-17-2009, 08:31 AM
Shoulda got a Mini
http://67.199.7.46/_media/imgs/articles2/a96674_simpledriving.jpg
i love this.
lupinsea
06-17-2009, 12:42 PM
Being able to open/close the top at up to 30mph makes it very efficient on the go
I could do that in the Miata and it had a manual top. :D
Man, that gold 911 is hideous.
SARAFIL
06-17-2009, 12:54 PM
Photos from right after it got its first wash at home. They are not very good, but they will have to do for now.
I didn't realize that you had that interior... very nice!! It'll certainly set your car apart from ordinary Boxsters with the black interior.
John V
06-17-2009, 01:04 PM
That interior color is awesome. White cars aren't my thing but the car still looks great.
+1
When I go used Porsche hunting at some point in the future, I'd love to find one with a tasteful alternative interior color (in other words, not black or tan and not garish).
SARAFIL
06-17-2009, 01:10 PM
+1
When I go used Porsche hunting at some point in the future, I'd love to find one with a tasteful alternative interior color (in other words, not black or tan and not garish).
One thing about Porsche (good or bad) is that you have alot of different interior color options. With certain interior colors, you better not have any plans to sell the car in the future. I've seen some really ugly ones....
One thing about Porsche (good or bad) is that you have alot of different interior color options. With certain interior colors, you better not have any plans to sell the car in the future. I've seen some really ugly ones....
I did say "tasteful".
And I know from playing with the configurator that there are a lot of colors offered. You just don't see them up for resale all that often.
clyde
06-17-2009, 01:32 PM
One thing about Porsche (good or bad) is that you have alot of different interior color options. With certain interior colors, you better not have any plans to sell the car in the future. I've seen some really ugly ones....
I saw a yellow Boxster yesterday with yellow seat belts (dont remember the rest of the interior color). : puke:
I saw a yellow Boxster yesterday with yellow seat belts (dont remember the rest of the interior color). : puke:
I think yellow seatbelts are cool. With a neutral exterior (white, black) and a black interior, I think having belts match the caliper color works as an accent.
The '04 986 SE we drove was silver on cocoa with silver belts. That was kinda neat.
wdc330i
06-17-2009, 01:54 PM
Photos from right after it got its first wash at home. They are not very good, but they will have to do for now.
I envy your driveway. Lots of room for more cars!
I envy your driveway. Lots of room for more cars!
Yes, it's huge. I love it. I could easliy park 20 cars. I figured out a while back that I could park as many as 12 cars comfortably and not block a single one (including letting the 3 cars exit the garages).
It sucks to clear in the winter though.
John V
06-17-2009, 02:27 PM
Color matching belts to exterior color is tacky. IMHO.
I think belts look best in the long run if they match the dominant color of the interior.
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