ceramic coating

[zach]

The damn robins at our place in CT have been attacking the X7 every night and shitting all over it (apparently the males see their reflection and freak out). On top of that, we have hard water there so if I try to wash it off, it just makes a mess. A bunch of folks on the G07 forum have had their cars ceramic coated (opti-coat or similar) which seems to keep the cars looking nice and swirl-free even just using traditional car washes. I'm considering it. Anyone have any experience with it? Thanks!

[clyde]

The damn robins at our place in CT have been attacking the X7 every night and shitting all over it (apparently the males see their reflection and freak out). On top of that, we have hard water there so if I try to wash it off, it just makes a mess. A bunch of folks on the G07 forum have had their cars ceramic coated (opti-coat or similar) which seems to keep the cars looking nice and swirl-free even just using traditional car washes. I'm considering it. Anyone have any experience with it? Thanks!

JV has a Gyeon ceramic coat on his Boxster. I have the same, but still in kit form waiting to be applied.

Tons of high quality ceramic coatings out there, but the quality of the application matters, too. Also more than a few crap products that their manufacturers call ceramic, but are not.

Ceramic coatings don't prevent water spotting. When new and when maintained with toppers, so much water sheets off, that very little is left behind...but there's always going to be some. If the water is hard and it air dries, you'll still get spots. If there's dust or pollen in the air, soft water will also leave spots (although not traditional "water spots") if air dried. Best to use a big and absorbent microfiber (https://www.amazon.com/Dreadnought-Microfiber-Double-Drying-1100gsm/dp/B07D9SKGV5) or waffleweave (https://www.amazon.com/Meguiars-X2000-Magnet-Microfiber-Drying/dp/B0009IQZFM/) (another waffleweavep (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XG22QKQ/)). There are also a lot of drying aid products that also help.

[zach]

Thanks Clyde!

[Alan]

Zach, my son had his M340 paint corrected and then ceramic coated by the same guy who paint corrected my R8, his car is metallic black and it cost him $1,700 which I thought was expensive but the car came out amazing. With that said he is now limited to only hand washing which is pretty annoying. He also has a sign he hangs on the mirror when he brings it in for service that they don’t wash the car or they will be responsible for having the coat redone.

Too much stress having to worry about it even he admits he wouldn’t do it again.

Clyde’s route of doing it yourself might be the way to go, this way you aren’t spending ridiculous money but then again it does take a quite a bit of prep from what I read which equals a lot of your time.

Whatever happened to Nufinish, you apply it to your car, it is smooth and then reapply in 3 months

[John V]

I've been really happy with the Gyeon stuff. I am not knowledgeable when it comes to detailing products or procedures, but I was able to get it done in an afternoon with no issue. The application has annoying aspects but on the whole I was happier with it than any sealer or wax I've used previously.

I did a light polish on the car before doing the ceramic coat. It's seen rain four or five times since then and has probably been hand washed twice.

[dan]

Zach, my son had his M340 paint corrected and then ceramic coated by the same guy who paint corrected my R8, his car is metallic black and it cost him $1,700 which I thought was expensive but the car came out amazing.

I don't think I'm understanding. I thought this "ceramic coating" is just like a layer of wax or other protectant product like that. What would warrant a charge of $1700?

[Nick M3]

I don't think I'm understanding. I thought this "ceramic coating" is just like a layer of wax or other protectant product like that. What would warrant a charge of $1700?
It's largely labor. Generally there would be a pretty substantial paint correct step prior to ceramic coat application, because otherwise what's the point?

[dan]

paint correction = polish, right? IDK I'm pretty sure most full details wouldn't run over $1000

[John V]

A $1700 paint correction (which, yes, is basically polishing) and ceramic application is extremely expensive. Particularly for a vehicle which is likely a year or two old at most. But mobile detailing folks are good at reading their customers and charging appropriately :lol:

[clyde]

I don't think I'm understanding. I thought this "ceramic coating" is just like a layer of wax or other protectant product like that. What would warrant a charge of $1700?

It's largely labor. Generally there would be a pretty substantial paint correct step prior to ceramic coat application, because otherwise what's the point?

"Real" ceramic coatings are effectively thin layers of glass added over the car's paint. They are very hard and very smooth. They function as a sacrificial layer for swirls and light scratches that would otherwise directly affect the clear coat. They are also quite durable and can last over five years. If you want to remove one before it wears away, you would need to use a compound or polish and may need to use pads on the more aggressive side depending on which ceramic and how fresh the application.

For best results, you probably do something like this:

Wash the car
Use Iron-X or similar to remove iron deposits
Decontamination/strip-wash
Clay
IPA wipedown
Paint correction (either polish only or compound and polish)
You want to get rid of all the swirls and scratches you can before you add the ceramic coating because you do anything about them when they are under the ceramic
Apply the ceramic (and it may be several layers with short of long drying/curing time between them
Apply a topper (think sealant, but intended to work with the ceramic)

High quality ceramics are not cheap and many of them are created to be part of a proprietary system that locks you into that brand's shampoos and toppers. When you add it all up for a single application, you're probably looking at a couple hundred dollars. Double that if you also need to buy a polisher and pads.

Doing the whole thing takes a lot of man hours. If it's done at a detail shop with a staff and the car is left there for a few days (complete with IR lights to follow manufacturer curing guidance), it's probably getting near 20 hours of labor, some of it highly skilled (hopefully) but most of it low-medium skill.

The compounding/polishing takes care and skill. Current products make it hard but not impossible to fuck up modern clear coat finishes without being stupid. It can be a pretty quick step if the paint doesn't have scratches and swirls, but can take a little while if it has a lot. Newer will probably take less time and work than older, but new cars can deliver with pretty fucked up paint if the in house "detailer" washed the car with a dirty rag when being prepped for delivery or the car spent some time in the showroom or on an exposed outdoor lot before sale.

If that's what Alan's kid did and the work is high quality, it's a reasonable price for the labor and materials consumed. Whether it's worth it to spend that money for someone to do the work for you is a different question.

If it was a solo mobile detailer that did some of that work in the driveway outside the house in a single session, yeah, that would be outrageous.

[clyde]

paint correction = polish, right? IDK I'm pretty sure most full details wouldn't run over $1000

"Paint correction" is fixing flaws in the paint (generally the clear coat). Swirls, scratches, marring, hazing, etc. It might be doable with just a polish or it might also need compounding.

You can correct paint without doing all the other stuff I listed in the post just above, but the correction may not be as high quality and whatever coating or sealant you put on next may not perform as well.

"Full detail" is kind of less descriptive than "full coverage" in the context of auto insurance coverage or trying to decipher what people claim to have paid for a car when they list all the different line items to get there. (Does it include tax? Does it include dealer fees? Does it include card earnings? Does it include private offer/rebates? Etc)

[dan]

wash, claybar, wash, paint prep, polish, wax all painted surfaces

[lemming]

This is fascinating. I did not know the ceramic was almost like another clear coat layer on top of the clear coat and car paint.

[clyde]

This is fascinating. I did not know the ceramic was almost like another clear coat layer on top of the clear coat and car paint.

If you think of it like that, you may be disappointed. If you think of it more as a protective coating for the clearcoat against normal handling (bird droppings, washing with a dirty rag, bird droppings, hard water spots, etc) that makes the car easier to wash and tends to enhance gloss or shine, you'll be happier.

Something that would chip your paint without it will almost certainly chip your paint with it.

Also, FWIW, ceramics can be applied on top of PPF (you would not put PPF on top of a ceramic...you would remove the ceramic beforehand) and that's probably the highest end way to go.

[lemming]

If you think of it like that, you may be disappointed. If you think of it more as a protective coating for the clearcoat against normal handling (bird droppings, washing with a dirty rag, bird droppings, hard water spots, etc) that makes the car easier to wash and tends to enhance gloss or shine, you'll be happier.

Something that would chip your paint without it will almost certainly chip your paint with it.

Also, FWIW, ceramics can be applied on top of PPF (you would not put PPF on top of a ceramic...you would remove the ceramic beforehand) and that's probably the highest end way to go.

I think they put ceramic on top of the PPF which I….guess is fine.

Compared to the $1700, my PFF install seems inexpensive ($2500) and they did a very, very nice job. They covered the rear hips, behind the rear wheels, the rockers, and the entire front end with not cut lines visible.

That said, I am fascinated by this ceramic thing for prolonged protection from the elements.

When you live on the East Coast, you never appreciate how ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING Los Angeles air is and how much particulate matter there is in the air. When you wash your car, it is pointless because a layer of soot covers the car within hours.

It’s like living in Mordor.

[FC]

...it is pointless because a layer of soot covers the car within hours.

It’s like living in Mordor.

:spit:

[ZBB]

When you live on the East Coast, you never appreciate how ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING Los Angeles air is and how much particulate matter there is in the air. When you wash your car, it is pointless because a layer of soot covers the car within hours.

It’s like living in Mordor.

Growing up in AZ, you’d be amazed at how much more particulates are in the air than in LA. Much of it is natural and due to the way desert climates pick up dust. But then there’s the smog aspect and occasional wildfire smoke.

I used to never wash my car if I had an upcoming trip — instead, I’d wait until I got back since the car would pick up an amazing thick layer of dry guck when sitting at the airport. In the covered garage…

[lemming]

Growing up in AZ, you’d be amazed at how much more particulates are in the air than in LA. Much of it is natural and due to the way desert climates pick up dust. But then there’s the smog aspect and occasional wildfire smoke.

I used to never wash my car if I had an upcoming trip — instead, I’d wait until I got back since the car would pick up an amazing thick layer of dry guck when sitting at the airport. In the covered garage…

This might happen in NYC (soot) and there’s pollen in DC or BOS. But I swear we don’t have smog like this.

I bet on autopsy tons of LA folks have black lungs.

[Alan]

Okay quick update to my sons experience with this ... the car was left parked next to the sprinklers in early summer and it seems the water drop spots will not come out. The detailers said the water from the sprinklers caused this which is ridiculous this coating can't take water drops sitting on it.

Long story my son is having the coating removed as he is done trying to maintain this ... if his car was garaged 'maybe' it is worth getting but I know I will not be doing this to any of my future cars unless I did it myself like Clyde did.



Compared to the $1700, my PFF install seems inexpensive ($2500) and they did a very, very nice job. They covered the rear hips, behind the rear wheels, the rockers, and the entire front end with not cut lines visible.


You hit the perfect parts to PPF, that is exactly where my stone chips come from, especially the rear hips ... good move :thumbup::thumbup:

My big worry with PPF is that they will leave razor cuts in the paint, it also bothers me they need to remove the headlights and front bumper to avoid seams at least that is what I had read online though if I were to get another brand new sports car I think I would have it done after a lot of research on who does excellent work.

[equ]

This might happen in NYC (soot) and there’s pollen in DC or BOS. But I swear we don’t have smog like this.

I bet on autopsy tons of LA folks have black lungs.

The soot in parts of NYC and North Nj is horrific. It covers our houses, cars and lungs. There are no diesel standards for heavy vehicles in NJ. :irate:

[clyde]

occasional wildfire smoke.

Not so occasional any more. :(

But, yeah, it's crazy how much crap you can find on a car's surface out there when you don't wash it often. OTOH, it rains so infrequently there that there's a repeated rinse cycle cars go through here that is missed that also helps allow some build up, too. Of course, there's no acid rain there. Then again... and so on.

The environments are different and each have their own harshnesses.

[clyde]

Okay quick update to my sons experience with this ... the car was left parked next to the sprinklers in early summer and it seems the water drop spots will not come out. The detailers said the water from the sprinklers caused this which is ridiculous this coating can't take water drops sitting on it.

Long story my son is having the coating removed as he is done trying to maintain this ... if his car was garaged 'maybe' it is worth getting but I know I will not be doing this to any of my future cars unless I did it myself like Clyde did.

Some ceramic coatings do not get along well with hard water (and the worst you will see are from sprinklers), especially when poorly applied and/or allowed to sit on the car for any length of time (read long enough to thoroughly dry). The coatings can take the water. It's the mineral and other deposits that wind up getting concentrated that they have a hard time with. All of the positive qualities of the coating, unfortunately, conspire to highlight those new blemishes.

My big worry with PPF is that they will leave razor cuts in the paint, it also bothers me they need to remove the headlights and front bumper to avoid seams at least that is what I had read online though if I were to get another brand new sports car I think I would have it done after a lot of research on who does excellent work.

People installing PPF on high end cars for a living are usually not random shmoes with the shakes using boxcutters. They are skilled, use the right equipment, rarely nick the paint, and are usually up front with you about it when they do (and will compensate you or assist in repairs).

What worries you about removing lights, bumpers, etc? It's not just to avoid visible seams, but to ensure proper coverage and decent wear. If the panel edges aren't wrapped properly, there's a good chance it will peel, give you air pockets, collect dirt, and/or otherwise look shoddy in short order.

All the things you're worried about are things to worry about when you "know a guy" that can "do it cheaper." If you do research and focus on quality and check references, you should be fine.

[Alan]

People installing PPF on high end cars for a living are usually not random shmoes with the shakes using boxcutters. They are skilled, use the right equipment, rarely nick the paint, and are usually up front with you about it when they do (and will compensate you or assist in repairs).

What worries you about removing lights, bumpers, etc? It's not just to avoid visible seams, but to ensure proper coverage and decent wear. If the panel edges aren't wrapped properly, there's a good chance it will peel, give you air pockets, collect dirt, and/or otherwise look shoddy in short order.

All the things you're worried about are things to worry about when you "know a guy" that can "do it cheaper." If you do research and focus on quality and check references, you should be fine.

I am the type pretty much like anyone here who will research the heck out of a place if doing this kind of work to my car but I have read some horror stories on Rennlist about brand new 911's being done at what the owners thought were a reputable place and ending up with cut marks on the paint ... I totally agree with you on getting the panel edges done property I just don't like people taking apart my cars. I think of it like this, the car is as perfect as it is going to be, removing parts can only end up doing damage at the worst while at the best hopefully no damage is done.

Even looking at a simple thing like removing a wheel, just check around the lugnuts and there is always some type of scratch in the lugnut area no matter how careful you ask them to be.

[clyde]

I think of it like this, the car is as perfect as it is going to be, removing parts can only end up doing damage at the worst while at the best hopefully no damage is done.

The alternative is that damage will happen from regular use...and from just existing in the environment.

It sounds like you have two choices:

You can take steps to protect against future damage with some small risk that doing so will incur immediate unintended damage.
You can rely on the the undocumented standard feature no-cost invisible forcefield your car came with to protect it against the absolutely 100% certain damage your call would suffer from merely existing in this world if it did not have that fortuitous magical forcefield.


It's like everything else in life. Shit happens and things go wrong sometimes. If my choice is between a small cut in the paint on the hood at the edge of where some PPF was installed for the three years I own the car or a sandblasted front bumper after three years of ownership, I know what I'd rather have. Some people might have a different feeling, though. :dunno: One of the big differences is that if I get a PPF install, it probably won't come with a free paint cut. OTOH, if I don't get a PPF install, it may not get sandblasted, but I know it will have plenty of chips.

[lemming]

Some ceramic coatings do not get along well with hard water (and the worst you will see are from sprinklers), especially when poorly applied and/or allowed to sit on the car for any length of time (read long enough to thoroughly dry). The coatings can take the water. It's the mineral and other deposits that wind up getting concentrated that they have a hard time with. All of the positive qualities of the coating, unfortunately, conspire to highlight those new blemishes.



People installing PPF on high end cars for a living are usually not random shmoes with the shakes using boxcutters. They are skilled, use the right equipment, rarely nick the paint, and are usually up front with you about it when they do (and will compensate you or assist in repairs).

What worries you about removing lights, bumpers, etc? It's not just to avoid visible seams, but to ensure proper coverage and decent wear. If the panel edges aren't wrapped properly, there's a good chance it will peel, give you air pockets, collect dirt, and/or otherwise look shoddy in short order.

All the things you're worried about are things to worry about when you "know a guy" that can "do it cheaper." If you do research and focus on quality and check references, you should be fine.

So, I basically took your advice here intuitively (before you posted this) and went with the XPEL installer in San Diego, Auto Armour, that the dealers use.

They are amazing. To your point, this is not a job for morons. These guys are so careful. They redid sections because they weren’t satisfied.

And I didn’t look all that hard, but if there are cut lines in the paint, I can’t see them. And the front end is protected from rock chips, which is key.

My only question was the headlight thing, but when they explained it, it made sense to me. I just didn’t know you could sand down headlamps and then “paint” them with clear coat.