View Full Version : Waffling continues: S2000
The thought of an S2000 is gaining momentum. A big advantage is that I could get one "cheap" and if I end up not liking convertibles can sell it and not take a bath. Also, as I re-read reviews, most consider it a more focused and fun car than a 986/S (the competition at the time of reviews) particularly when not saddled with DD duties.
I remembered reading about the 2004 2.2L bump as a compromise for better DD manners, and some bemoaning how it had lost a bit of edge. Thinking that I've never owned a hardcore sportscar before, and that in '09 an '04 would be 5 years old, I thought I'd focus on '04+ cars.
This morning I talked ot my boss, who I knew had owned an S2000, and he told me he had a '00. He said I should aim for an '02-'03 since they fixed the synchros on the tranny and added a glass rear window which he recommends since he felt the plasitc window was a PITA and a POS.
I also seem to remember some complaints about suspension components breaking on the '04's (during autox)? Also the '04 has wider tires.
My boss never drove the 2.2L but in his opinion, as a weekend car, why give up the higher redline and more racecar-like character of the 2.0L?
It also helps that a 2.0L would be cheaper.
Right now my list contenders is:
-'02+ S2000
-986S
-Early 987
-Early Elise
-I may be able to squeeze a cheap '05 987S with luck a year from now, but it would definitely be on the high side of the budget.
If I get the significanlty cheaper S2000, I could keep it for a short while and then trade up to an '07+ 987S or who knows what else by then depending on our financial situation. I may even convince the wife to get one this year if cheap enough (say, under 15K).
The thought of an S2000 is gaining momentum. A big advantage is that I could get one "cheap" and if I end up not liking convertibles can sell it and not take a bath. Also, as I re-read reviews, most consider it a more focused and fun car than a 986/S (the competition at the time of reviews) particularly when not saddled with DD duties.
I remembered reading about the 2004 2.2L bump as a compromise for better DD manners, and some bemoaning how it had lost a bit of edge. Thinking that I've never owned a hardcore sportscar before, and that in '09 an '04 would be 5 years old, I thought I'd focus on '04+ cars.
This morning I talked ot my boss, who I knew had owned an S2000, and he told me he had a '00. He said I should aim for an '02-'03 since they fixed the synchros on the tranny and added a glass rear window which he recommends since he felt the plasitc window was a PITA and a POS.
I also seem to remember some complaints about suspension components breaking on the '04's (during autox)? Also the '04 has wider tires.
My boss never drove the 2.2L but in his opinion, as a weekend car, why give up the higher redline and more racecar-like character of the 2.0L?
It also helps that a 2.0L would be cheaper.
Right now my list contenders is:
-'02+ S2000
-986S
-Early 987
-Early Elise
-I may be able to squeeze a cheap '05 987S with luck a year from now, but it would definitely be on the high side of the budget.
If I get the significanlty cheaper S2000, I could keep it for a short while and then trade up to an '07+ 987S or who knows what else by then depending on our financial situation. I may even convince the wife to get one this year if cheap enough (say, under 15K).
My friend picked up an '05 S2000 in the mid $20k range with about 25k miles. It's a great car. Drive one...........you will like it.
These things hold their value ridiculously well. I can't find an '02 for less than mid-upper teens. How can these cars be asking more than 50% after 6 years with 60K miles?
The local Honda dealer has a leftover NEW '06, a few '07's and a bunch of '08's. I bet I could get a great deal right now.
...coughs...cannot resist comment...
I would likely take the s2k over the elise (for some increased comfort and honda-ness). I like the 06+ for the seats. I drove some older ones as well and the car is not really diluted all that much. OTOH it's changed hardly at all, the early buyers & holders made out well. Do test on same day with some boxsters though.
I've never driven a 2.0 S2000, but I can't imagine more torque being a compromise, even if the redline was lowered. I think clyde commented on this a while back, saying that the increase in the feel of torque between the 2.0 and 2.2 was [something to the effect of] significant enough to notice.
When you hit redline at 8K, the engine is still pulling, so you know there's more on tap. But I guess that doesn't really bother me because I think the car is still a hoot to drive.
From my standpoint, the only true compromise with the 2.2 models is that the rear end was softened. Is that a compromise though? When you read that MotorTrend (http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_0706_americas_best_handling_car) article about the best handling cars, it was suggested that the rear end be softened even more. Who knows. When I drove the stiffer S2000 CR last month, I was thinking to myself "this is absolutely perfect". Though I wasn't about to spend an extra $8K for a stiffer roll bar and shocks. That's not to say that the base S2000 is a softy. It'll still abuse your spine over the bumps, and will handle beautifully.
If you decide you like the car, then honestly, I'd be looking at a 2004. You get more torque, the lower profile tires (wider in the rear too), and you still have the real cable throttle. The DBW ones are good, but they'll never be as good as cable throttles.
The local Honda dealer has a leftover NEW '06, a few '07's and a bunch of '08's. I bet I could get a great deal right now.
I'd be cautious about that 06 (and even some of the 07's) because chances are they've got some miles on them, and probably more than abused by the salespeople. I got $2300 under invoice ($29,500) for my '07 last month.
06 adds stability along with e-throttle - I did not notice a significant delay. You're on your own on that ... For myself, I found the s2000 not a very benign car to drive (the zhp and the porsches are quite gentle). When it lets go, it happens quickly.
John V
02-06-2008, 11:17 AM
I like the S2000 a lot... but I love the Boxster S. It is edgy in a different way - it still has the go-kart feel of the S2000 with the advantage that when you're just driving around in traffic it feels very refined and comfortable. You can have a conversation in the car at highway speeds, something I can't really say about the S2000. The S2000 is extremely tiring to me on longer trips. The engine and exhaust boom into the cockpit and to my ear it isn't a very friendly sound. Lots of wind noise. Not the best isolation from the (uninsulated) top.
It's an awesome car at its purpose, but for a daily driver I think it's not the best for me personally.
Drive one, but be prepared to take several on test drives. They seem to be widely varied in torque output. Ken's '03 was very strong. I've driven earlier cars which were noticably weaker. I've never driven an '04+
Hmmm...
I'm ok with all that, but at 20K+, it will have to wait 10-12 months. I'll have to test-drive the cars and see.
On leftover cars being abused, who is to say the '08's didn't get abused? But it's a good point to not buy a "new" car with 500 miles. That would be bad. 500 dealer miles is probably not good for an S2000.
The S2000 is extremely tiring to me on longer trips.
This is true. If you want a car for longer road trips, the S2000 is not the right car.
I like the S2000 a lot... but I love the Boxster S. It is edgy in a different way - it still has the go-kart feel of the S2000 with the advantage that when you're just driving around in traffic it feels very refined and comfortable. You can have a conversation in the car at highway speeds, something I can't really say about the S2000. The S2000 is extremely tiring to me on longer trips. The engine and exhaust boom into the cockpit and to my ear it isn't a very friendly sound. Lots of wind noise. Not the best isolation from the (uninsulated) top.
It's an awesome car at its purpose, but for a daily driver I think it's not the best for me personally.
Drive one, but be prepared to take several on test drives. They seem to be widely varied in torque output. Ken's '03 was very strong. I've driven earlier cars which were noticably weaker. I've never driven an '04+
I plan on thoroughly test-driving the cars in my list above. Fortunately, the dealerships are all within 5 miles of home and even closer to work.
This is true. If you want a car for longer road trips, the S2000 is not the right car.
Nope. I'd probably never drive more than 50 miles one way. And it would usually be more like 10.
On leftover cars being abused, who is to say the '08's didn't get abused? But it's a good point to not buy a "new" car with 500 miles. That would be bad. 500 dealer miles is probably not good for an S2000.
Naturally, that's possible. But a new car with 500 miles on it screams "hey, the salespeople used me to run and grab lunch and do burnouts in the McDonalds parking lot". The chances of that new '06 having a lot of miles on it is pretty good.
lupinsea
02-06-2008, 02:54 PM
I've not driven an S2000 yet but was seriously looking at them a while back as an upgrade from my Miata. A house purchase got in the way but I did get a chance to go talk to the local S2k club which included a number of serious national race drivers, performance driving instructors, and others who know the car well.
From what I remember:
First Generation S2k's
The AP1 (first gens up to '03) is a harder edge car. It has the higher RPM (9000 rpm) redline, the V-TEC kicks in at a higher RPM point (6000+ rpm I think), the rear suspension is stiffer (as mentioned) which can cause the car to go into a snap oversteer suddenly. This happened to a number of the guys in the club, including one goof who was a little too enthusiastic on a freeway onramp.
Second Generation S2ks'
The AP2s (2004+ cars) are supposed to be more refined and not as edgy. Displacement was bumped to 2.2L for extra torque, redline was dropped by 500-800 rpm (down to about 8300 rpm I think), the V-TEC engagement point was lowered to about 5500 rpm, and yet the peak HP remained the same (240 hp). So, same power, but it's delivered lower in the RPM band where it is slightly more accesible in day-to-day driving. The rear suspension was soften which I've heard really helped dial out (but not eliminate) potential snap oversteer. The '04+ cars also received the bigger wheels and lower profile tires which some saw as lame since it added weight.
Additional Notes
While the '04+ were more "refined" that is like saying you get a helmut with your rocket jet pack from what I gather. The difference is so minute that if you didn't drive the AP1 cars for a basis of comparison you wouldn't know it and think the AP2 cars were very intense.
That's the other thing, all the guys were saying the S2k's were very intense cars to drive. Very focused. . . sort of like a motorcycle with 4 wheels. It's because of this that they can be fatiguing on long drives.
Also, during "regular" driving they supposedly don't feel all that fast. Sort of like a Miata around town. The reason is because of the powerband is so far up the RPM scale that, well, just how often will you be calmly tooling around town at 6000+ rpm? There is a significant bump in power once that V-TEC kicks open. Take a look at some stock dyno charts. You get an extra ~80+ hp within about a 500 rpm range. I.e. NOT linear power delivery. It has been described to me as if the engine suddenly grows an extra 2 cylinders.
Speaking of that non-linear power delivery . . . A lot of fun but it can be difficult to manage if you're at the edge some where. . . say, screeming along in a tight turn at the edge of the car's grip with your engine at about 5800 rpm. Too much more throttle and the V-TEC opens up. What do you think an extra 80 hp would do while you're in the turn under those conditions?
Anyways, I keep vacillating between a NC Miata and an S2000 when I next get a sports car. On one had, I like the idea of stepping up to an S2000: higher revving engine, more refined design, more power, faster, better cache and a Miata, blah blah blah. But then I consider how easy and worry free the Miata was. It was a very nice feeling. Not to mention that it's small and nimble and a great little car.
Anyways, I suspect I'll have plenty of time to figure this out. Lots of time, in fact.
John V
02-06-2008, 03:31 PM
I disagree 100% with the assessment of VTEC. VTEC is purely RPM based, and the changeover point is pretty subtle in terms of power. It may be 5 or 10 hp when it switches in. The car makes a lot more noise, but not a lot more power. What VTEC does is allow the engine to keep building power all the way to that astronomical redline, but it isn't as though the car suddenly hit turbo boost or kicked in another couple cylinders. Not by a longshot!
S2000s feel relatively quick if you rev the piss out of them, but they're about as docile as a Civic when driven around at low RPM. Not particularly thrilling in terms of power.
I disagree 100% with the assessment of VTEC. VTEC is purely RPM based, and the changeover point is pretty subtle in terms of power. It may be 5 or 10 hp when it switches in. The car makes a lot more noise, but not a lot more power. What VTEC does is allow the engine to keep building power all the way to that astronomical redline, but it isn't as though the car suddenly hit turbo boost or kicked in another couple cylinders. Not by a longshot!
S2000s feel relatively quick if you rev the piss out of them, but they're about as docile as a Civic when driven around at low RPM. Not particularly thrilling in terms of power.
I'll disagree with your disagreement. Hitting the VTEC crossover results in a very noticeable change in power delivery. I've often likened it to having another 2 cylinders suddenly come alive. And I also think that you don't have to rev the piss out of it, for it to feel quick. Unless your idea of quick is having your head squashed back into the headrests. I can outrun the leadfoots around here all day long without having to breach 4500 RPM.
It does feel very docile at low RPM (the short gearing doesn't help), but even as low as 3000 RPM, the car begins to take off quite nicely. Again, I don't expect to be able to light the tires up in every gear either. It could be that my expectations are different.
And shoot, that engine revs so easily, and feels so good doing it, that I never feel like it's a chore to do so.
You guys are talking about different things. In a straight-line sense, v-tec will "kick in" mildly. But it is not a JUMP - it won't snap the car in a turn (which is what JV is concerned with). FF means he can feel a pick up in power delivery - which is true...
Lup's review (or more like distillation of reviews) feels spot on to me outside of the v-tec comment. It's an angry but cool sounding, racy, somewhat snappy (more so than the germans or the rx-8) car if you push it. It's a light, quick, not very special feeling and not particularly fast car if you don't push it. The snappiness comes from ease of change of direction, quick steering, and perhaps not tremendous grip. With a little extra grip (and perhaps a sonorous 6-cyl engine) it may have been one of the best sports cars built.
I love its build quality, and its purity of execution (no options).
John V
02-06-2008, 05:29 PM
This dyno chart suggests that when VTEC kicks in, it's about a 25-30hp jump (more than I expected) - but look closer. If the power curve didn't level off so much at 5500 RPM, the "jump" would have been only about 5hp.
http://images.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0403scc_s2000_05_z.jpg
Honda did this on purpose - the VTEC changeover was programmed to be more harsh (i.e. at too high of an RPM) so it was providing a more tangible
benefit.
I agree 100% with equ's comments.
ARCHER
02-26-2008, 11:58 PM
So I was going to pose the S2000 question to you guys in hopes of harvesting this exact discussion.
Perusing the local classified ads - as I do on weekends to see if there is some lost treasure I cannot live without - I stumbled across an '02 S2K. It got me thinking about the weekend I spent testing an '05. I loved it of course, but it was just not in the cards for me at the time. Now that I may be able to swing a third "fun" car, my interest is once again aroused.
In all aspects, the car was alive and visceral - like a semi-refined go-kart on steroids. It only suffered from the fact that back-to-back comparison to my M3 left it feeling lackluster in the torque department. It was loud. It was rude, and made no apologies about its intentions. I liked that a lot - and now that the M3 is gone and my butt is far removed from its reference point, I may just have to go drive another.
You guys are nothing but a bunch of enablers. Can I get an intervention up in here?
Can I get an intervention up in here?
Not a chance. :D Just give in.
INTERVENTION - It's a Japanese piece of junk that will probably rust out and it has no guts. If you want a motorcycle engine, but a motorcycle. Honda is good at those.
(your mileage and opinions after having actually driven an s2000 may vary).
(your mileage and opinions after having actually driven an s2000 may vary).
:lol::thumbup:
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