View Full Version : Yup, more waffling...
I mentioned a few months back I couldn't really make any decisions until my wife got back on her routine of working and I got to see how things developed with dropping my son at daycare, etc.
Well, it's early still, but 3 weeks have gone by since my wife got back to work and a few things (non of them surprising) are evident.
I need to drive a car with 4 doors Monday thru Friday. Soon my wife will stop working form home once a week, and it will eb off to daycare 3 times a week, and grandma's twice a week. I don't think I'd want to deal with a coupe's back seat.
As a result, whatever sportscar I get will be driven only on weekends, and even then half the times I drive on weekends the family and/or dog are coming along or I need a roomy vehicle to run an errand, so it's not as if ALL weekend drives could be taken care of with a 2-seater.
Obvious conclusions:
-I need a somewhat fun 4-door car.
-Whatever I spend on a sportscar has to be money I could not possibly miss (meaning not a lot).
Well, one could argue I already have the fun 4-door, and I do. So that's taken care of (at least in the short to medium term).
On the 2nd point, I think it woud be positively silly to spend anything more than 30K on a car that would be driven so little. In fact, it kind of begs the question... Why the hell do I even bother with a separate 2-seater?
Should I instead get a used 911 and deal with the rear seat access every morning? Should I just upgrade to a new/different/more fun sedan?
Should I go 180-degrees and add a wrangler unlimited to have top down fun with the whole family and fix any shortcommings of the V70R? Should just drive the V70R everyday and add the sports car? (I would be OK with driving the wagon daily if it were a 5er stickshift. But it isn't, and we're not swapping the V70R for a while)
So... thoughts?
Ahh, nothing like waffling in the morning.
SARAFIL
02-01-2008, 08:35 AM
So... thoughts?
Ahh, nothing like waffling in the morning.
Wow... you really are all over the place... :eeps: :D
clyde
02-01-2008, 08:37 AM
So... thoughts?
My cat's breath smells like cat food.
Take it from someone that learned the hard way about babies and coupes. I had a 2000 Accord coupe when our first was born. By the time my daughter was big enough to ride in the 2nd stage child seat (the size that your son will be in before long) I needed to start bringing her home from daycare every day. The problem isn't so much getting the child in and out of the back seat. It's getting the child seat into the car in the first place. The seat wouldn't fit through the door opening and behind either of the front seats. I suppose I could've removed one of the front seats to get it in, but it was then that I realized without any doubt, that using a coupe to tote around young kids was a losing proposition. The very next day a new Accord sedan was sitting in my driveway. :)
John V
02-01-2008, 08:44 AM
Obvious conclusions:
-I need a somewhat fun 4-door car.
I would recommend an E46 ZHP.
Yes, well, these conclusions all sound very familiar. A two-seater is a remarkably impractical extravagance when you don't drive very much and must carry three people during the week.
However, with one kid, a four door really isn't strictly necessary. I carry my daughter to day care quite often in the Mini (did it today, AAMOF), and while it's slightly more awkward than doing it in the BMW, it's not that big of a deal. As long as you have a bigger car to travel in, a smaller two-door is fine (at least in my experience).
I came very close to buying 2 different used 911s. At the end of the day, I couldn't justify the cost. You might not be feeling it yet, but there will likely come a point in the not-too-distant future where the idea of spending that much money on a used car seems irresponsible, given all of the other expenses that will abound.
Personally, if I were facing your constraints, I would get a 335i 4-door and a Mini Cooper S. :)
clyde
02-01-2008, 09:04 AM
I do not believe that it's necessary to have more than one four seater when you have small children. Convenient, perhaps, but certainly not necessary.
Yes, well, these conclusions all sound very familiar. A two-seater is a remarkably impractical extravagance when you don't drive very much and must carry three people during the week.
However, with one kid, a four door really isn't strictly necessary. I carry my daughter to day care quite often in the Mini (did it today, AAMOF), and while it's slightly more awkward than doing it in the BMW, it's not that big of a deal. As long as you have a bigger car to travel in, a smaller two-door is fine (at least in my experience).
I came very close to buying 2 different used 911s. At the end of the day, I couldn't justify the cost. You might not be feeling it yet, but there will likely come a point in the not-too-distant future where the idea of spending that much money on a used car seems irresponsible, given all of the other expenses that will abound.
Personally, if I were facing your constraints, I would get a 335i 4-door and a Mini Cooper S. :)
LOL.
Well, I'm not opposed to a 911 - we'd be talking 996 here, and obviously (and sadly) not a GT3. Well, maybe with luck a base '05 997. As an absolute stretch, I may consider a 996TT but I really doubt it would happen. If I replace the 330i, spending ~$50K is not verboten. Now, spending $50K on a new car with a warranty vs. a used, pricey car to maintain with no warranty is a big difference.
If I replaced the ZHP with an MCS my wife would love me forever (hopefully she would regardless :eeps:). But it's hard for me to not think ZHP-to-MCS is a downgrade, and a loss of praticality for sure (nevermind that I'd have to cough up about $10K on the swap.
I could upgrade to a 335i. But would the driving be MORE fun? Faster sure, but more fun? Further, would it be $30K more fun? Why not use that $$$ and buy JV's car instead (or similar - like a base '05 987) and keep the ZHP?
I would recommend an E46 ZHP.
LOL, yeah I always liked those...
I do not believe that it's necessary to have more than one four seater when you have small children. Convenient, perhaps, but certainly not necessary.
This is true. But that assumes you are willing to drive the one 4-seater everyday. It's not like I'd get hives form drving the V70R mon-fri, but I rather drive something more fun.
Tell you what, let's turn this around...
You have ~$50K to spend, you are in my shoes, and you have a slushie V70R that cannot be moved (for the resident wiseasses, I mean sold, replaced, traded, etc).
What do you buy?
If your idea is brilliant, I may allow up to max of 55 or even 60K, but not a penny more. And three cars are allowed.
John V
02-01-2008, 09:15 AM
Keep the V70R which can't go.
Keep the ZHP as the fun four-door.
Buy a cheap used Miata, add turbocharger, enjoy fun weekend car. Invest remainder of $50k and use it for future college tuition / Ferrari purchase.
Keep the V70R which can't go.
Keep the ZHP as the fun four-door.
Buy a cheap used Miata, add turbocharger, enjoy fun weekend car. Invest remainder of $50k and use it for future college tuition / Ferrari purchase.
Hmmmm..... :cool::D
Spending less is always nice. But we're not sacrificing retirement/college fund/house upgrades at all with the 50K budget.
Of course, the idea of a Miata with suspension upgrades, or a used S2000 have crossed my mind.
What I really should get is a motorcycle.:lol: But I'm not into them and it's simply out of the question.
John V
02-01-2008, 09:24 AM
A used S2000 sounds like a GREAT use of that money. Or a used Vette. Or maybe even a used Boxster.
You can never save too much money.
rautox
02-01-2008, 09:24 AM
Keep the V70R which can't go.
Keep the ZHP as the fun four-door.
Buy a cheap used Miata, add turbocharger, enjoy fun weekend car. Invest remainder of $50k and use it for future college tuition / Ferrari purchase.
:+1
I do not believe that it's necessary to have more than one four seater when you have small children. Convenient, perhaps, but certainly not necessary.
Depends on your circumstances. If one parent is dropping off kids at day care in the morning and the other parent is picking them up, you sort of do.
Of course, at some level, it's not necessary to have a car at all, so the whole necessary v. convenience split is illusory.
Of course, the idea of a Miata with suspension upgrades, or a used S2000 have crossed my mind.
I think that makes more sense. You can get 3-4 year old, low mileage S2000's for high teens $$$ (or lease a 2008 for $299/month). And obviously the Miata is going to be even less expensive.
lemming
02-01-2008, 09:28 AM
i like these answers.
esp. the cat breath one.
Keep the V70R which can't go.
Keep the ZHP as the fun four-door.
Buy a cheap used Miata, add turbocharger, enjoy fun weekend car. Invest remainder of $50k and use it for future college tuition / Ferrari purchase.
Used Boxster S.
clyde
02-01-2008, 09:38 AM
There are a lot of combos you could do among the following:
RX8 (add Greddy)
Charger SRT8
CTSV
2004 Z06
C6
986 S
987 S
996
E36 M3/4
Elise
Flyin Miata
S2K
And those are just what come to mind without thinking. Even if you kept the 330, most of the 2 door/2seaters are options and you won't bust your budget.
Are you sure that you aren't trying to construct the scenario so that the only possible outcome is what you've already consciously or subconsciously decided you want?
clyde
02-01-2008, 09:40 AM
Depends on your circumstances. If one parent is dropping off kids at day care in the morning and the other parent is picking them up, you sort of do.
You don't really don't want to open up the daycare question, do you?
Do NOT try to replace the zhp that you know & have owned from new with a 996. Back in my pre-'mudgeon/waffling days, I had an audi a4 2.8q. It was nice and I had it for 4.5 years, I got tired of it and bought a 996. While the speed & handling were nice, the loss of practicality/comfort was immense. I did not miss the 911 (too much) when I got my - new to me - zhp coupe. One could also argue that the 911 intimidated me and I decided to work my way up the hp ladder slowly. You will regret it badly if you go from your zhp to a 996.
It is very hard to beat the zhp's fun factor with 4 decent seats. (e36m3 but those are beat up by now)
Keep zhp. Get a used boxster S (01's are in the low-20's).
Used Boxster S.
I'm leaning that way vs S2000, or Miata.
JV, your car still for sale?
Personally, if I were facing your constraints, I would get a 335i 4-door and a Mini Cooper S. :)
Except that zhp > 335i in the fun department, imho. I shopped for it intensely and test drove twice at the time.
John V
02-01-2008, 10:02 AM
I'm leaning that way vs S2000, or Miata.
JV, your car still for sale?
That depends on the timeframe.
Except that zhp > 335i in the fun department, imho. I shopped for it intensely and test drove twice at the time.
Meh. I've had both. The ZHP is nice enough, but the shitty clutch/throttle action reduces the level of fun, and at the end of the day the ZHP just isn't fast enough to satisfy. Moreover, the E90 is usefully larger than the E46 where it counts; it's easier to carry 4 adults + baby seat in the E90 than in the E46.
That's not to say that if I were *buying* a car to keep for a long time I'd get a 335 over a ZHP.
You don't really don't want to open up the daycare question, do you?
Dunno. Do I?
Meh. I've had both. The ZHP is nice enough, but the shitty clutch/throttle action reduces the level of fun, and at the end of the day the ZHP just isn't fast enough to satisfy. Moreover, the E90 is usefully larger than the E46 where it counts; it's easier to carry 4 adults + baby seat in the E90 than in the E46.
That's not to say that if I were *buying* a car to keep for a long time I'd get a 335 over a ZHP.
Well, in my case there is also the added factor of it having been mine since new (not to mention it was my first new car, did ED, sentimental attachment, my wife really would miss it etc).
The ZHP is nice enough, but the shitty clutch/throttle action reduces the level of fun, and at the end of the day the ZHP just isn't fast enough to satisfy.
Highly disagree. The e90 clutch/shift/throttle is no porsche/honda either. The zhp was almost at that level with a clutch stop & cdv (the former more important than the latter).
Fast enough? For how many seconds can you keep your foot planted on the 335i? We (FC, you & I) all live in the NE urban/suburban areas. There is fun in the zhp sound, lively chassis and wringing it out in the gears. The 335i is quiet & capable, audi-like.
John V
02-01-2008, 10:19 AM
Maybe I'm missing something here. Are you contemplating getting rid of the ZHP? If so, why?
Highly disagree. The e90 clutch/shift/throttle is no porsche/honda either. The zhp was almost at that level with a clutch stop & cdv (the former more important than the latter).
Fast enough? For how many seconds can you keep your foot planted on the 335i? We (FC, you & I) all live in the NE urban/suburban areas. There is fun in the zhp sound, lively chassis and wringing it out in the gears. The 335i is quiet & capable, audi-like.
That's what I mean. The M54 makes decent power, but you have to rev it to make it go fast. There's no chance to do that in most of my daily driving; I just can't wind the car out. The 335, OTOH, makes plenty of torque down low and gives you a shove in the back at almost any speed. This is more fun, in most cases, for me because it is performance I can access.
I could never get the clutch/throttle relationship right in the ZHP. Even after adding a clutch stop (which helped), I still couldn't drive the car smoothly consistently. I could be much smoother in the 335 first time out than I ever was in the ZHP.
Lastly, having owned an Audi and a 335 at the same time, I have to say that the last thing the 335 is is Audi like, thankfully. The 335 is much more communicative, has a far better suspension setup, and is overall much more pleasant to drive than the (last gen) A4.
Why the hell do I even bother with a separate 2-seater?
:+1
That depends on the timeframe.
I dunno. I am supposed to wait another year, but since we're not talking about 50K, if the right opportunity comes along, I may pounce. Tell you what, until I make up my mind, let me know if some one is really interested and about to buy it from you.
Obviously, I'd like to have it by springtime.
Maybe I'm missing something here. Are you contemplating getting rid of the ZHP? If so, why?
I wasn't planning on it, but if if say a 911 could do it all, then why keep the ZHP when it's $15K coudl be use dtowards the 911.
IOW, it goes back to the new proposed 50K budget. If I keep the ZHP, the budget is down to 30-35K for the 3rd car..
Personally, if I were facing your constraints, I would get a 335i 4-door and a Mini Cooper S. :)
:lol:
We're banking on being happy with our E46 328iT and an MCS. I'm sure it will be fine.
Josh (PA)
02-01-2008, 10:42 AM
Keep the ZHP
get an e30 M3 and a wrangler and have 2 four seat fun cars for the price of the porsche
wait and see what the e90 m3 is like
Sharp11
02-01-2008, 10:45 AM
I could never get the clutch/throttle relationship right in the ZHP. Even after adding a clutch stop (which helped), I still couldn't drive the car smoothly consistently. I could be much smoother in the 335 first time out than I ever was in the ZHP.
This has got to be a variable issue wrt the ZHP, mine's smooth as butter and the throttle response immediate. I haven't removed the CDV nor have I added a clutch stop (it's easy enough to depress the clutch only as far as it needs to go).
The E92 335i I drove had a sloppier feeling six speed manual with a longer throw, but it was smooth.
Ed
Keep the ZHP
get an e30 M3 and a wrangler and have 2 four seat fun cars for the price of the porsche
wait and see what the e90 m3 is like
That would mean 4 cars. I doubt that would fly. BUt it's not a bad idea. Except a decent Wrangler (unlimited - even if last gen without 4 doors) is still in the teens. So would a miata, so I'd have to spend 30K in two additional cars. Nope, that won't work.
And when I originally said Wrangler in the OP, I meant a 4-door unlimited, which are still new and still at leat $25K.
I don't think I'd be interested in an E90 M3 as THE sportscar of the household. Plus, it ain't cheap.
Sharp11
02-01-2008, 10:49 AM
If I keep the ZHP, the budget is down to 30-35K for the 3rd car..
Lots of beautifully clean, under 10k Zeds out there - coupes too, (some even brand new).
However, if the styling of the Z4 threatens your manliness, there's the much more flaccid, dynamically inferior Z3 - well under 20k for one of those.
Lots of choices in the third car world.
Ed
Lots of beautifully clean, under 10k Zeds out there - coupes too, (some even brand new).
However, if the styling of the Z4 threatens your manliness, there's the much more flaccid, dynamically inferior Z3 - well under 20k for one of those.
Lots of choices in the third car world.
Ed
It doesn't threaten my manliness. In fact, SARAFIL's Roadster (or in Imola Red) I could live with. I just want an experience, and in that regard, as a weekend only toy now, I am attracted more to mid-emgined Boxster. Heck, a Lotus Elise all of a sudden starts tomake sense (If I can find one I like for under 30K).
Shit, now I had to give myself THAT idea. It's a good thing the EE just fried the transformer/power amplifier in my prototype, so I have some time today...
Obviously, I'd like to have it by springtime.
But you see, the time to shop for a 2-seater is now (or next year this time). Soft economy + winter = good prices.
I drove the 335 back to back with my then zhp, with my caymanS, with the s4 (at komen drive) and with an e46m3.
It is wonderfully smooth and does drive nicer than an audi. However it is too quiet/soft for me in stock form to even want to do anything with. I found myself slowing down naturally in it. I'd have to change exhaust/suspension to get some entertainment. 3 out of 4 of those cars are more fun for me. The s4 is a toss up, perhaps less fun.
But you see, the time to shop for a 2-seater is now (or next year this time). Soft economy + winter = good prices.
I know, I'll work with the wife over the weekend. Kind of an "act now while I'm willing to buy a cheaper car!" infomercial approach. ;)
E46 328iT
What is that?
:confused::confused:
DROOL! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-Lotus-Elise_W0QQitemZ110220197630QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m110220197630)
I know, I'll work with the wife over the weekend. Kind of an "act now while I'm willing to buy a cheaper car!" infomercial approach. ;)
Everyone shops for a 2-seater in the spring. Don't wait.
Everyone shops for a 2-seater in the spring. Don't wait.
Tru dat.
But you see, the time to shop for a 2-seater is now (or next year this time). Soft economy + winter = good prices.
Yup! $2150 under invoice for me. :D
Sharp11
02-01-2008, 11:21 AM
It doesn't threaten my manliness. In fact, SARAFIL's Roadster (or in Imola Red) I could live with. I just want an experience, and in that regard, as a weekend only toy now, I am attracted more to mid-emgined Boxster. Heck, a Lotus Elise all of a sudden starts tomake sense (If I can find one I like for under 30K).
Shit, now I had to give myself THAT idea. It's a good thing the EE just fried the transformer/power amplifier in my prototype, so I have some time today...
Whatever you do, as a third car, get a convertible - you owe it to yourself.
Also, as equ says, now's the time, convertibles get really expensive starting around March.
Ed
What is that?
:confused::confused:
Excuse me... E46 325iT.
Just to throw another opinion out there, I got talked into driving an e90 when I was out test driving zhp 330s. For a variety of reasons, I ordered an e90. I think it's more fun. I certainly don't think its quieter except for maybe on the wind noise front. But I don't think this is the right answer for FC. I wouldn't trade a ZHP that I already owned for an e90 unless the car was dying.
Damn, I can't stop now. I'd honestly buy this if my wife gave me the go-ahead.
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51576
clyde
02-01-2008, 02:37 PM
Damn, I can't stop now. I'd honestly buy this if my wife gave me the go-ahead.
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51576
"It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission"
I have yet to be in a cab where I can go between 120 to 150 comfortably.:dunno::ack:
I've yet to break 120mph in the US. Ever.
What's with all the dreamers and the ridonkulous prices?:dunno::?
I dunno either. But new, that car was 40K and it has about 10K in options and under 10K miles. Nowadays, that car would cost at least 6K more. So, new it would cost close to 60K out the door. A 3yo car with such few miles in mint condition for 35K asking, doesn't seem all that crazy. These aren't camrys. There's a somewhat limited supply.
"It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission"
:mad2:
John V
02-01-2008, 02:49 PM
I've yet to break 120mph in the US. Ever.
My friend "beavis" took an SV1000 very similar to mine up to 140 on an empty section of expressway not long after it was broken-in. In a dream I had of course.
BahnBaum
02-01-2008, 02:50 PM
My friend "beavis" took an SV1000 very similar to mine up to 140 on an empty section of expressway not long after it was broken-in. In a dream I had of course.
What are those tires rated for?
That's what would scare me on a bike at those speeds.
Alex
John V
02-01-2008, 02:54 PM
>186MPH (ZR).
Anyway, it takes no time to get up to that speed and the speed rating is only for sustained velocities. And beavis was only allowed a short burst.
BahnBaum
02-01-2008, 03:00 PM
And beavis was only allowed a short burst.
You must have talked some sense into him.
Alex
lupinsea
02-01-2008, 03:01 PM
Here's another thought: variety.
You mentioned the Wrangler and you've said in the past how much you really want one "but". Maybe consider it again.
You'd have the V70R
The ZHP
And a Wrangler
That would be a nice car line up to give you a wide variety of driving experiences. One of the things I like about my Jeep is that it is SO different than our car. It's not fast, handles ridiculously, pitchs a lot, and other wise is a pretty crappy on-road driver. But it's fun. It's so different and unique that those traits get lumped into the charming character of the Jeep. Granted, the new Jeeps that you'd consider have a better suspension design, will ride stock (not like my lifted Jeep), and have a longer wheel based to provide an even better ride than what I have.
Plus the Jeep will give you some towing options (if you need them), and a utility capacity without having to "worry" about the car. I guarantee you won't be worrying about dirt, scratches, or other things with the Jeep the way you probably do with the Volvo. Not to mention about no worries for scuffing the bumper or other low-clearance issues that you have with the Volvo.
Plus plus, the Wrangler would give you the top-down, convertible driving experience in good weather. Or you can also take off the doors, too (my favorite, it's like you're driving a park bench, just awesome, even at 20 mph).
And, if you're not entirely opposed to four cars, you can pick up a Miata for $8-9k, throw in $1-2k in suspension upgrades and have a nice, sub 2500 lb., LSD equipped, roadster with a great shifter / clutch set up, a fast revving engine that would be happy at 7000 rpm all day long, that is also damn near bullet proof reliable.
So, with a $50k "budget":
$0k to hang on to the V70R
$15k to "keep" the ZHP
$25k for the 4-door Wrangler Unlimited
$10 for a nice Miata setup.
Or . . . do you keep the V70R as your 4-door "car", get the Wrangler, sell the ZHP and get a Mini to make your wife happy. With maybe some left over for an even cheaper Miata?
1999 Mitas are going for $5k on the Edmunds.com TMV price listing. 1999 was the coke-bottle body styling of the NB era.
So, with a $50k "budget":
$0k to hang on to the V70R
$15k to "keep" the ZHP
$25k for the 4-door Wrangler Unlimited
$10 for a nice Miata setup.
Wranglers just don't work as well in the northeast suburbia, I think. The other problem with this scheme is that the zhp will still be most likely faster than the miata.. I think he needs a nicer than $10k sporty car.
wdc330i
02-01-2008, 03:14 PM
Wranglers just don't work as well in the northeast suburbia, I think. The other problem with this scheme is that the zhp will still be most likely faster than the miata.. I think he needs a nicer than $10k sporty car.
E46 M3 convertible? Rear seat functionality. Different from a ZHP; yet still familiar. Depreciated.
E46 M3 convertible? Rear seat functionality. Different from a ZHP; yet still familiar. Depreciated.
I can tell you right now, that's a no-go. E46 M3=Maybe. E46 Mr Cab = No way.
Wranglers just don't work as well in the northeast suburbia, I think. The other problem with this scheme is that the zhp will still be most likely faster than the miata.. I think he needs a nicer than $10k sporty car.
Yes, I would like a sporty car woth more than 10K. And I drove a mazdaspeed Miata (last gen) and decided I liked my ZHP better. I rather get a Wrangler Unlimited as a 3rd car. I would like a car I can take to mild trails without worrying. Last year I went to a local state forest and almost ripped the front end of the V70R.
Now, I could buy a really used wrangler for very short money, but again, 4 cars is a bit much.
The idea of V70R, Wrangler Unlimited and say used 986S or S2000 is a thought, but that would mean I'd drive the Unlimited everyday and that is not what I want.
Are you sure you'd actually use the "fun" car?
I had always toyed with the idea of having a 3rd car that was fun... and then we ended up with 3 cars for 7 months in '06. My wife had a Mini that was fully paid for, but wanted to get a "mommy car" and ended up with an X3. For various reasons, we didn't put the Mini up for sale until nearly 7 months after we got the X3.
I'm glad it worked out that way -- because I learned that we really didn't use the 3rd car. She drove the X3, I drove my 530, and on weekends we'd usually take the X3. We'd have to pay attention to making sure the MINI was driven -- and one time we realized we hadn't driven it in nearly a month.
It was a great way to learn that we really don't need a 3rd car. I'm OK with getting a relatively fun 4-door for me, and an SUV for my wife until we're through the car-seat stage. Then I'll get a coupe or convertible, maybe even a 2-seater that is more fun, and my wife can keep her SUV...
Now, if I were to win the lottery, I'd consider getting an extra car -- but at that point, I'd get a really fun car -- an Elise or an Atom to complement the "practical" daily driver...
lupinsea
02-01-2008, 03:31 PM
Wranglers just don't work as well in the northeast suburbia, I think. The other problem with this scheme is that the zhp will still be most likely faster than the miata.. I think he needs a nicer than $10k sporty car.
I don't doubt the ZHP will be faster. But I think the Miata will quicker and offer a whole different handling / driving dynamic by being 800 lb. lighter. In that regard there are times where I curse the ZHP's piggy piggy weight, bulk, lack of feed back and the slooooow reving, slow to respond engine, clunky shifter and loooong throws. Not to mention lack of top-down driving. Not to mention you can get a Miata with a torsen LSD. Last time I checked no ZHP had that.
I still love the ZHP for what it is. A great sedan. But I don't always want to be driving a sedan.
And I also don't doubt the Wranglers will be somewhat out of place in the NE suburbia. For one thing, their capability won't even be scratched. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be unique or interesting to drive in their own right. Nor that they couldn't be driven there.
Besides, FC can probably drive the Wrangler for a few years and decide to sell without too much of a depreciation hit. They keep their value pretty good. Frustratingly so.
Besides, FC can probably drive the Wrangler for a few years and decide to sell without too much of a depreciation hit. They keep their value pretty good. Frustratingly so.
The local dealer is always sold out of them and I've seen ZERO incentives for '07's, since, well, they all seemingly sold out with no problems (despite the very "weak" engine - why won't jeep put the JGC diesel in the Wrangler?).
Are you sure you'd actually use the "fun" car?
I had always toyed with the idea of having a 3rd car that was fun... and then we ended up with 3 cars for 7 months in '06. My wife had a Mini that was fully paid for, but wanted to get a "mommy car" and ended up with an X3. For various reasons, we didn't put the Mini up for sale until nearly 7 months after we got the X3.
I'm glad it worked out that way -- because I learned that we really didn't use the 3rd car. She drove the X3, I drove my 530, and on weekends we'd usually take the X3. We'd have to pay attention to making sure the MINI was driven -- and one time we realized we hadn't driven it in nearly a month.
It was a great way to learn that we really don't need a 3rd car. I'm OK with getting a relatively fun 4-door for me, and an SUV for my wife until we're through the car-seat stage. Then I'll get a coupe or convertible, maybe even a 2-seater that is more fun, and my wife can keep her SUV...
Now, if I were to win the lottery, I'd consider getting an extra car -- but at that point, I'd get a really fun car -- an Elise or an Atom to complement the "practical" daily driver...
I believe that completely. Which is why despite the fact that my wife loves it, it is silly for us to get one because she would never drive it and I know I rather have an Elise over an MCS.
Now, as far as a 3rd car in general not being driven, I don't doubt it would be driven little, but I have come to terms with that AND it would have to offer a completely new experience, which is why a roadster that is light and mid-engined would work best.
lupinsea
02-01-2008, 05:04 PM
The local dealer is always sold out of them and I've seen ZERO incentives for '07's, since, well, they all seemingly sold out with no problems (despite the very "weak" engine - why won't jeep put the JGC diesel in the Wrangler?).
Hey, don't ask me.
I'd love to see either a diesel or V8 in the Wrangler. It needs it. For the last 2+ decades the Wranglers have always had "just enough" power but not one bit more. Which marinal for stock but sucks when you start putting on larger tires and such. It's one reason re-gearing the Jeeps for larger tires is nearly a must-do for drivability issues.
Sad thing is, Jeeps used to be available with V8's from the factory, eons ago.
But, I'd be leary of adding too much weigh to the Wranglers. I'm actually rather annoyed they've gained 800-700 lb. going from the TJ to the JK. The more I see of the JKs on the trail the more I both want one and don't want one. They seem very bulky in an offroad trail setting watching them trying to climb over bolders and stuff.
Are you sure you'd actually use the "fun" car?
I had always toyed with the idea of having a 3rd car that was fun... and then we ended up with 3 cars for 7 months in '06. My wife had a Mini that was fully paid for, but wanted to get a "mommy car" and ended up with an X3. For various reasons, we didn't put the Mini up for sale until nearly 7 months after we got the X3.
I'm glad it worked out that way -- because I learned that we really didn't use the 3rd car. She drove the X3, I drove my 530, and on weekends we'd usually take the X3. We'd have to pay attention to making sure the MINI was driven -- and one time we realized we hadn't driven it in nearly a month.
It was a great way to learn that we really don't need a 3rd car. I'm OK with getting a relatively fun 4-door for me, and an SUV for my wife until we're through the car-seat stage. Then I'll get a coupe or convertible, maybe even a 2-seater that is more fun, and my wife can keep her SUV...
Now, if I were to win the lottery, I'd consider getting an extra car -- but at that point, I'd get a really fun car -- an Elise or an Atom to complement the "practical" daily driver...
This is actually quite to the point for us. Between my gf & I we have 3 cars. I can't bear selling the cayman, she loves the honda si... So why do I have the bmw again? :ack:
If a mini was my 3rd car, I'd sell it asap.
I've yet to break 120mph in the US. Ever.
Last weekend for me - and it happened about 20 seconds after 0 or so, too. The new 'vettes are amazingly fast. Fun, too. And they sound good. Of course it was on a deserted road in the middle of nowhere in Indiana with no intersections, so I didn't get to experience dodging traffic, but it was still a lot of fun.
lemming
02-01-2008, 06:15 PM
Last weekend for me - and it happened about 20 seconds after 0 or so, too. The new 'vettes are amazingly fast. Fun, too. And they sound good. Of course it was on a deserted road in the middle of nowhere in Indiana with no intersections, so I didn't get to experience dodging traffic, but it was still a lot of fun.
really nice with the 4LT package, too.
for under 50k and FC's preferences, it always seems to point back to a 335i, IMHO.
it's a really nice vehicle. the e90 is really nice, but i think the 335i is the winner. the 328 is too cammy in its power delivery (fun for some, can't see how this is fun in stop and go traffic -->200ft-lbs to motivate 3400lbs never seems like a good idea to me in stop and go traffic). the M3? it's confused about its mission. luxury car? sports car? which is it? BMW doesn't do luxury well. and if a 1er has better brakes than an M3....what does that say about BMW's flagship 3 series? likely it's not a sports car.
to be perfectly honest, i agree with (Z)Eddie here. i don't know the "why" of buying an M3 except for the (M)arketing gig. if i was looking at 60k for a BMW, i'd sure as hell not get the M3. i'd get a 550i 6speed and enjoy the greater quality all around and better torque at the same curb weight.
I'm not interested in v8's or sub-20mpg (hwy) cars after my s4 experience. I think the tide is turning against them.
I actually quite miss the s4 avant. It kicks a$$ over the 330xi (in a straight line & in turns) and feels like one car. The 'xi' front & rear feel disconnected almost. The s4 is less balanced and had worse steering feel but still is very fast. (at least mine was, I test drove a whole bunch). But I couldn't stomach the mpgs, even though it doesn't matter that much for my usage. I also hated filling up every 200 miles. For those two reasons I don't regret selling.
IndyMike
02-01-2008, 07:34 PM
Of course it was on a deserted road in the middle of nowhere in Indiana with no intersections You just described 90% of the State.
so I didn't get to experience dodging traffic, but it was still a lot of fun.
Hmm, exactly what day did you pass through our fine State? The only reason I ask is that just this past week a State Trooper was killed in what is suspected was a high speed pursuit of a scofflaw, when he was intercepted by a tree when he veered off the roadway. They're still investigating just exactly what happened. He was still a rookie with only 6 months on the force.
I'm not saying this has any connection, mind you.
But then again, how do you look behind bars and in stripes? :eeps:
Edit: Here is the linky: http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008801300495
lemming
02-01-2008, 07:40 PM
I'm not interested in v8's or sub-20mpg (hwy) cars after my s4 experience. I think the tide is turning against them.
I actually quite miss the s4 avant. It kicks a$$ over the 330xi (in a straight line & in turns) and feels like one car. The 'xi' front & rear feel disconnected almost. The s4 is less balanced and had worse steering feel but still is very fast. (at least mine was, I test drove a whole bunch). But I couldn't stomach the mpgs, even though it doesn't matter that much for my usage. I also hated filling up every 200 miles. For those two reasons I don't regret selling.
another reason why the 335i is a good deal. it gets decent mpg's on long trips.
torque for stop and go.
You just described 90% of the State.
Hmm, exactly what day did you pass through our fine State? The only reason I ask is that just this past week a State Trooper was killed in what is suspected was a high speed pursuit of a scofflaw, when he was intercepted by a tree when he veered off the roadway. They're still investigating just exactly what happened. He was still a rookie with only 6 months on the force.
I'm not saying this has any connection, mind you.
But then again, how do you look behind bars and in stripes? :eeps:
Edit: Here is the linky: http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008801300495
I was nowhere near that area, nor would I have tried to run if I had caught the attention of Indiana's finest. When I said deserted, I meant DESERTED. heh.
On a side note, the gas mileage difference is one of the main reasons I bought the 335 - no other 300 hp four door seems to come close except maybe the caddy and I had one of those last, redesigned or not.
IndyMike
02-01-2008, 09:02 PM
I was nowhere near that area, nor would I have tried to run if I had caught the attention of Indiana's finest. When I said deserted, I meant DESERTED. heh.
Hey, I believe you. I'm not trying to come across as Judge Judy, and I wasn't insinuating that you were the only scofflaw in the State (at least at that particular time).
The main reason people bust balls through the State is that it's fairly lightly patrolled, and if you're coming from or going through Ohio and or Illinois you know you've got some time to make up because they are both over-patrolled, no-nonsense States.
But next time slow it down some and stop off in Indianapolis. We really could use your tax dollars.
clyde
02-01-2008, 10:40 PM
Is Kokomo close enough?
My brother lives outside Indy (in fairland or something like that). While he and my sister in law insisted on paying for everything while I was there, we left PLENTY of tax dollars in Indy.
I grew up in Illinois. I think I got one ticket for speeding there - and not for lack of speeding. I think you just have to sort of know the traffic patterns and get lucky sometimes, but . . . I never thought Illinois was bad. Now Michigan, there's a state that you don't drive in without a radar detector.
IndyMike
02-02-2008, 06:43 AM
Is Kokomo close enough?
Unfortunately, no. Although the Kokomo Kolts (nee Colts) does have a nice ring to it.
But imho you have to be koo koo for Kokomo (and by obvious logical extension Coco Puffs) to stop there.
I think it was one of Dillinger's favorite stomping grounds, too.
Huh? Any connection there maybe? (note to self: must check with FBI brother of any banks held up in the State with particular emphasis on the acronym "WTF" coming from statements provided by witnesses).
Okay, it's all coming together now nicely. No wonder you were able to afford that 'new' 'vette. :toetap:
IndyMike
02-02-2008, 07:56 AM
My brother lives outside Indy (in fairland or something like that). While he and my sister in law insisted on paying for everything while I was there, we left PLENTY of tax dollars in Indy.Fairland is just down the 'deserted, in the middle of nowhere with no intersections' road from me. While we truly love big shots from Calyfornee dropping their coins in our economy, on occasion we Hoosier's can be hospitible. So next time you're in the area let me know and the 'sliders' at White Castle will be on me.
I grew up in Illinois. I think I got one ticket for speeding there - and not for lack of speeding. I think you just have to sort of know the traffic patterns and get lucky sometimes, but . . . I never thought Illinois was bad. Now Michigan, there's a state that you don't drive in without a radar detector.Then you must be one of the luckiest men in America.
I admit my opinion of Illinois may be jaundiced, because it's the only one in the Onion (sic) of 50 States that I was ever handed a speeding ticket. And I had to hand over the fine ($75) in cold hard cash, right on the spot. I thought that only happened in Europe (at least so I've been told :eeps:) . I'm sure it made its way into the Counties deposit account for such infractions. :rolleyes:
Fortunately I was in a rental car and hence it never made it into my official transcripts, at least as far as my insurance co. is concerned.
But I regress! Illinois and Ohio are the only two States I know where the State constabulary wait for you right at the State border crossing to give you the Governor of the State's 'official' greeting.
Oh, and sorry 'Nando, but this thread may now be officially declared :jack:
:D
Fairland is just down the 'deserted, in the middle of nowhere with no intersections' road from me. While we truly love big shots from Calyfornee dropping their coins in our economy, on occasion we Hoosier's can be hospitible. So next time you're in the area let me know and the 'sliders' at White Castle will be on me.
Then you must be one of the luckiest men in America.
I admit my opinion of Illinois may be jaundiced, because it's the only one in the Onion (sic) of 50 States that I was ever handed a speeding ticket. And I had to hand over the fine ($75) in cold hard cash, right on the spot. I thought that only happened in Europe (at least so I've been told :eeps:) . I'm sure it made its way into the Counties deposit account for such infractions. :rolleyes:
Fortunately I was in a rental car and hence it never made it into my official transcripts, at least as far as my insurance co. is concerned.
But I regress! Illinois and Ohio are the only two States I know where the State constabulary wait for you right at the State border crossing to give you the Governor of the State's 'official' greeting.
Oh, and sorry 'Nando, but this thread may now be officially declared :jack:
:D
I agree with the Ohio cop statement. I went to college in Southwestern Ohio and have driven the I-65 south to Indy to I-70 West route to Ohio many many times. Crossing into Ohio after Richmond, IN and all the Ohio troopers would be lined up waiting for the kill.
As for the IL side, coming into chicago from NW IN via 90 (Skyway) or 94 you rarely see cops. and I drive this route almost once or twice a week for work reasons. It's too damn congested 90% of the time.
IL gives you 3 options for a ticket. Pay $75 onsite to trooper, post a bond card pay at later date, post your driver's license and pay at later date.
IndyMike
02-02-2008, 09:21 AM
I agree with the Ohio cop statement. I went to college in Southwestern Ohio and have driven the I-65 south to Indy to I-70 West route to Ohio many many times. Crossing into Ohio after Richmond, IN and all the Ohio troopers would be lined up waiting for the kill.
As for the IL side, coming into chicago from NW IN via 90 (Skyway) or 94 you rarely see cops. and I drive this route almost once or twice a week for work reasons. It's too damn congested 90% of the time.
IL gives you 3 options for a ticket. Pay $75 onsite to trooper, post a bond card pay at later date, post your driver's license and pay at later date.
I was bagged on I-57 North as I was coming up from Memphis back from a business trip to Indy. You go from I-55 where everyone is flying and the limit is 70mph, to I-57 and the crossover into Illinois where the limit dips to 65mph. If you're not careful (and admittedly I wasn't paying attention as I was yacking with my colleague) you can easily miss the posted speed limit signs.
Pretty neat little operation they have going there because they post one of their finest with a radar gun hidden from view in the median of an overpass abutment, and they call it in to someone who is around the bend about 1/2 mile down the road, again hidden from the driver's view. At that point they have about 3 officials who just point at you as you go by if you're an unlucky victim. Quite the revenue 'drive'. At least one other colleague of mine was also a 'victim' there as well.
At the time I didn't know you could play 'Let's make a deal'. Good to know for future reference. :rolleyes:
BahnBaum
02-02-2008, 09:46 AM
At that point they have about 3 officials who just point at you as you go by if you're an unlucky victim.
Maryland stopped that practice after a state trooper was run over during one of those operations.
Alex
clyde
02-02-2008, 10:02 AM
Illinois and Ohio are the only two States I know where the State constabulary wait for you right at the State border crossing to give you the Governor of the State's 'official' greeting.
Add New Jersey to that list.
Add New Jersey to that list.
:+1
Um, is it ok if I bring my waffiing back on topic?:eeps:
:toetap:
Anyhow...
I annoyed the wife enough this morning, but at least some parameters have been set:
-I have an approved budget of ~$50K (excluding the V70R, which as before, stays).
-This car purchase will have to follow THE PLAN and will have to take place a year from now (ok, maybe late '08). She refuses to greenlight a crazy car purchase while she "has to deal with our current kitchen." So until the remodeling at least kicks off, I cannot even suggest any "opportunities" I may come accross. I can, of course, research and test-drive in preparation, but no actual buying. Fair enough.
-If the plan includes us somehow getting a Mini, she'll let me do whatever I want with the rest of the money (I'm sure that excludes motorcycles, or 5 cheap cars, but she'd allow an Elise, previously a non-starter). I may possibly bump my budget a bit ($5K?), since the Mini* would invariably replace the cheaper ZHP.
*She actually wants a last gen MCS, only because she is obsessed with Electric Blue paint, which is no longer available. I'm not letting her buy an inferior used MCS simply because of a color, especially when I'd be driving it most often.
-She favors the Boxster, and in case she winds up NOT liking the Mini (she's never driven one - nor have I), she would really want the Boxster as our shared fun car (again, perhaps pushing budget a bit if needed).
-Of course, she favors the cheaper solution, like ditching the ZHP, buying a Mini, and buying used Miata (shocker!:rolleyes:).
-She would not be opposed to a 4th car as long as it is very cheap (<$5K) and very useful, like a large SUV so I don't have to constantly borrow my dad's pick-up.
Overall, I'm not against the Mini suggestion. Yes, it is a coupe. But I would still have access to the V70R whenever I want. The Mini would also make for an awesome city car/commuter when needed. It would free up a bunch of garage space too. And it would be new.
In the short term I need to test drive:
-S2000
-986S (preferably with 030 suspension)
-New MCS
-Elise (w/ and w/o LSS)
-996 C2 (just to get it out of my system - never driven a 911)
-Ditto a (4-door) Wrangler Unlimited.
-And as a refresher, base 987 and 987S.
John V
02-02-2008, 03:30 PM
You're welcome to come drive mine anytime.
3LOU5
02-02-2008, 04:06 PM
My cat's breath smells like cat food.
:bustingup
3LOU5
02-02-2008, 04:10 PM
....
What I really should get is a motorcycle.:lol: But I'm not into them and it's simply out of the question.
Smart move.
I've seen some of the worst drivers in the nation in your area. :rolleyes:
You're welcome to come drive mine anytime.
Thanks for the invite. My best friend lives in Philly and I'd like to go visit him this spring to meet his 1yo girl and for him/his wife to meet our son. If we do make that trip, I'd like to go down to DC since my wife has never visited. Then I'd hopefully get to meet some of you guys.
...Or if my wife has to go to DC for work (but that is rare).
Well, I just configured an MCS with a lot of comfort/performance options (including JCW motor), and it hit 31.5K. Yikes.
My 2008 MINI Cooper S
Base MSRP* $21,200
Destination & Handling $650
paint
Laser Blue Body Color $500
White Roof/Mirrors $0
package
Cold Weather Package $500
Heated Powerfold Mirrors & Washer Jets
Heated Front Seats
Convenience Package $1,500
Comfort Access System
Leather Sport Wheel w/Multifunction
Comfort Bluetooth with USB/iPod Adapter
Universal Garage Door Opener
Auto Dimming Rear View Mirror
Rain Sensor and Auto Headlamps
Center Arm Rest
Premium Package $1,500
10-Speaker. Hi-Fi Sound System
Automatic AC
Dual Pane Panoramic Sunroof
Sport Package $1,500
Sport Suspension
Dynamic Stability Control
17" Crown-Spoke (Performance)
White Bonnet Stripes
performance
Front Fog Lamps STD
Xenon Headlamps w/Power Wash $500
Rear Fog Lamp $100
Limited Slip Differential $500
6-Speed Getrag Manual STD
cockpit
Sport Seats STD
On-Board Computer STD
Anthracite Headliner $250
Leatherette: Black/Grey STD
Interior Surface Checkered STD
TOTAL MSRP AS CONFIGURED* $28,700
accessory**
Mud Flaps front and rear axle (installation not incl.) $62
Driving lamps (installation not incl.) $510
Black Rubber Floor Mat (front) (installation not incl.) $55
Black Rubber Floor Mat (back) (installation not incl.) $30
JCW Tuning Kit (installation not incl.) $2,100
TOTAL ACCESSORIES ** $2,757
TOTAL MSRP AS CONFIGURED* $28,700
TOTAL COMBINED $31,457
lemming
02-02-2008, 05:49 PM
drove a 335i (step), G35 (auto) and a CTS 3.6DI (auto) today.
the 335i was pricey, but nice. didn't come with jacksh*t as standard equipment which irritated me. interior was the worst of the group, IMO. engine is probably the most fun of the three. brake feel was great. steering feel was so-so.
the G35 had so-so steering feel. brakes felt good. even with an upgraded interior and the lowest price (by far) --the car still blah'd me.
the CTS was the biggest surprise. i really enjoyed driving it. the 3.6DI has a lot more midrange power than i would have thought, esp. having driven the 335i in the same day. great steering feel and this was the CTSx. brake pedal was excellent. interior was, by far, the nicest.
just thoughts --GMO/S means the CTS 3.6DI 6sp (with obligatory LSD), full leather, sunroof and lots of other niceties is below the G35.
John V
02-02-2008, 06:16 PM
Whoa whoa whoa whoa.
The CTS3.6 has an LSD available? :eeps:
IndyMike
02-02-2008, 06:56 PM
She actually wants a last gen MCS, only because she is obsessed with Electric Blue paint, which is no longer available. I'm not letting her buy an inferior used MCS simply because of a color, especially when I'd be driving it most often.
Where do you get the idea that the R53 is 'that' inferior to the R56? And whose car is it going to be, yours or hers? :dunno:
Certainly there are those who feel the R56 is not 'that' demonstrably better than its predecessor, and aethestically in many areas has in fact regressed.
And I, too, drive the frau's car more than her, but it's still her car and she gave the final thumbs up on options and colors.
IMO let her test drive both generations, and you do the same as well. But since it's going to be her car I'd say let her make the final call.
Just my 2 bits, and experience in 19 years living with 'the Warden'.
As for your 'toy' car, it'd be impossible for me not to lean heavily toward the Elise. Boxster's are superb, but face it, they're a dime a dozen even here in the non-luxury Indy metro area. And in megalopolis's you can't swing a dead parrot without hitting one.
Elise's are more exclusive (always a plus in my ledger), and they don't reek handling wise either.
lemming
02-02-2008, 07:04 PM
Whoa whoa whoa whoa.
The CTS3.6 has an LSD available? :eeps:
option y43
Sharp11
02-02-2008, 07:35 PM
-This car purchase will have to follow THE PLAN and will have to take place a year from now (ok, maybe late '08). She refuses to greenlight a crazy car purchase while she ......
So in other words, there's no dream car budget.... should've guessed :rolleyes:
:lol:
Ed
FWD:stukabot::thumbdow:
I really don't get minis, at all. I guess I'm so surrounded by them that they are the corolla around here. I call bs though, the RoW actually has a whole slew of mini competition with lots of little hatches running around. In the US, only mini is smart enough to acknowledge that market.
I agree with stuka on this one. Fwd + that interior + lotsa marketing = -3
I'm still hoping plaz will cancel his order and you'll come to your senses.
Sharp11
02-02-2008, 07:51 PM
I really don't get minis, at all. I guess I'm so surrounded by them that they are the corolla around here. I call bs though, the RoW actually has a whole slew of mini competition with lots of little hatches running around. In the US, only mini is smart enough to acknowledge that market.
I agree with stuka on this one. Fwd + that interior + lotsa marketing = -3
I'm still hoping plaz will cancel his order and you'll come to your senses.
Have you driven one? They're fun, feel like BMW's and look good.
Ed
So in other words, there's no dream car budget.... should've guessed :rolleyes:
:lol:
Ed
:?
I'm confused. Both of us have to be on board with nay purchase. And neither of us has ever bought anything over ~$100 without checking first. Not because we have to (we have no rules on this), but simply out of consideration.
I could park an Elise in my house tomorrow if I wanted. She'd be incredibly pissed off, but I know she would not get rid of it (or me). It's not about the money as she trusts me to not do anything stupid (I actually run the finances). It's about both of us being happy.
clyde
02-02-2008, 08:08 PM
whose car is it going to be, yours or hers? :dunno:
There appears to be only pair of pants in that family... :eeps:
Both of us have to be on board with nay purchase. And neither of us has ever bought anything over ~$100 without checking first.
holy crap
Have you driven one? They're fun, feel like BMW's and look good.
Ed
I have driven a previous generation MC and then an MCS on a pretty decent test drive. They're decent to drive (not better than my gf's honda si hatch). But they're still fwd and have that horrible interior. At some price point they might be attractive, for me personally, the price point is 10k lower.
drove a 335i (step), G35 (auto) and a CTS 3.6DI (auto) today.
the 335i was pricey, but nice. didn't come with jacksh*t as standard equipment which irritated me. interior was the worst of the group, IMO. engine is probably the most fun of the three. brake feel was great. steering feel was so-so.
the G35 had so-so steering feel. brakes felt good. even with an upgraded interior and the lowest price (by far) --the car still blah'd me.
the CTS was the biggest surprise. i really enjoyed driving it. the 3.6DI has a lot more midrange power than i would have thought, esp. having driven the 335i in the same day. great steering feel and this was the CTSx. brake pedal was excellent. interior was, by far, the nicest.
just thoughts --GMO/S means the CTS 3.6DI 6sp (with obligatory LSD), full leather, sunroof and lots of other niceties is below the G35.
Those are the three that I've also tested and had similar comments on after testing them. When I ranked them, the G35 fell way behind. The 335 was a close second to the CTS -- basically the horrible interior kept it behind, even though it has a better powertrain than the CTS (not that the CTS is bad, just that the 335 is soooo good). The CTS was the overall best car -- best interior, best exterior design, 2nd best powertrain.
I had my 530 in the shop yesterday -- and I upgraded my loaner to a new CTS (the dealer uses Hertz for loaners). It had the DI engine, base suspension, and a the "luxury" package with heated/cooled seats, sunroof, keyless start. I really liked it -- it was great in traffic, nice mid-range grunt, very stable, and absolutely no rattles (it had 5k rental car miles on it).
I've decided to keep the E39 for about another year, but I've essentially decided that an '09 CTS will be my next car.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa.
The CTS3.6 has an LSD available? :eeps:
Yep... on both of the sport packages...
Whoa whoa whoa whoa.
The CTS3.6 has an LSD available? :eeps:
Oh, yeah. And if you get the FE3, I think it's included.
FC, as for the Mini, you don't need to spend 32K on a Mini. Mine was 26. You don't need the JCW package, you don't need the fancy leather...it's a small hatch. Equip it like one.
John V
02-02-2008, 11:12 PM
So Cadillac will offer an LSD on it's cheapest model, and somehow they don't feel that it will threaten their more expensive "V" line?
BMW, uh, WTF?!
FC, as for the Mini, you don't need to spend 32K on a Mini. Mine was 26. You don't need the JCW package, you don't need the fancy leather...it's a small hatch. Equip it like one.
I think that if you equip a MINI to the $32K level, you'd better be willing to keep the car forever, or take a huge bath on resale value. It's hard to imagine that there'd be a significant market out there for a used econo-hatch in that price range.
Some of the quotes on this board could go into the "quotes from other boards" thread.
In particular, I like ff's comment about how MINI resale is going to tank (evidence please? everything I have read and experienced says the opposite) and equ's comment about the MINI not being any more fun to drive then the Civic Si - umm - ok, if you say so.
They are what they are. Lots more people like them then don't like them as is obvious by their success and their continuing ridiculously high resale values. Yet people that don't like them for whatever reason seem to take that success as a personal insult for some reason.
Oh, yeah. And if you get the FE3, I think it's included.
FC, as for the Mini, you don't need to spend 32K on a Mini. Mine was 26. You don't need the JCW package, you don't need the fancy leather...it's a small hatch. Equip it like one.
I agree. That was just a "check the boxes" excercise. FYI, no leather on my config above.
...you'd better be willing to keep the car forever.
We would regardless.
In particular, I like ff's comment about how MINI resale is going to tank (evidence please? everything I have read and experienced says the opposite) and equ's comment about the MINI not being any more fun to drive then the Civic Si - umm - ok, if you say so.
The last gen Si actually has more space than a 3er sedan, forget the mini. The interior doesn't hurt my eyes, just a bit of red stitching & alcantara and very supportive seats. The NA 160hp engine is vastly superior to the last gen MCS. It's smoothness is like that of a bmw I-6. It is more reliable (and yes it has great resale as well).
But, it is not made by the ultimate marketing gods, thus it must automatically be less fun to drive. :rolleyes:
lemming
02-03-2008, 10:39 AM
The last gen Si actually has more space than a 3er sedan, forget the mini. The interior doesn't hurt my eyes, just a bit of red stitching & alcantara and very supportive seats. The NA 160hp engine is vastly superior to the last gen MCS. It's smoothness is like that of a bmw I-6. It is more reliable (and yes it has great resale as well).
But, it is not made by the ultimate marketing gods, thus it must automatically be less fun to drive. :rolleyes:
i understand your POV, equ and it's a fair point.
the only thing i'd continue to point out to you is that on an objective, quantifiable level, the MCS actually performs as advertised. as is from Car and Driver's 2007 Lightning Lap:
"With the least power and straight-line speed among the entries this time, it’s not surprising that the Mini Cooper S turned the slowest lap time of 3:22.9. But that’s still a good bit faster than the times we extracted from the Volkswagen GTI (3:25.1), Honda Civic Si (3:26.5), and Mazda MX-5 (3:29.3) last year. Furthermore, the Cooper S turned its laps with style.
The Mini’s steering is on the heavy side, but the car turns in eagerly and accurately. It also has an exceptionally responsive degree of lift-throttle oversteer that helps to position the car, providing a driver has developed sufficient sensitivity in his right foot. A limited-slip differential to reduce wheelspin from the inside tire would help acceleration from slow-speed corners, but overall, the Mini is a willing and satisfying player on the track."
we cannot argue over subjectivity, but objectively, there's the data. if you choose to discount it, as always, that's for you to do.
John V
02-03-2008, 11:28 AM
Does Honda still insist on hobbling the Civic Si with horrible tires?
The lightning lap is interesting but not a particularly good indication of a car's inherent "goodness." Which is why I always question certain folks' obsession with lap times. They don't tell the whole picture.
lemming
02-03-2008, 11:38 AM
Does Honda still insist on hobbling the Civic Si with horrible tires?
The lightning lap is interesting but not a particularly good indication of a car's inherent "goodness." Which is why I always question certain folks' obsession with lap times. They don't tell the whole picture.
i use it simply to demonstrate that, the MINI also being on horrible tires and this one in question not even equipped with the LSD unit --is more than a cutesy appliance.
i'm trying to demonstrate a person's limits of logic without resorting to namecalling or being a complete jackass.
(I will ignore Lem's last comment.)
I grant that an MCS may be more fun to drive than a Civic Si. I will add that given the much greater space (esp. in last gen Si), the smooth Honda nature, better ride, much lower cost and better expected reliability, the Si is the better buy for me.
Sort of like, the Elise is likely a sharper, "more fun when playing" car than the Cayman S. I haven't driven one, but based on reviews and weight numbers, I have no problem with that statement. But I can drive to Boston in comfort in the latter but not in the former, they're about the same price and the latter holds it own on the track not too shabbily. Hence for me, it is the better car.
My gf puts 75 miles a day on her 02 Si, and frankly, on balance, I think that car is *better* than the 06 e90 which cost us four times as much. Neither of us were honda fans before and frankly few other cars in their line-up appeal to us (of course the s2k). But if everyone in this board is going for an MCS without even considering an Si for daily driving, it is the success of marketing (colors, options, "motoring", etc. etc.). The honda image seems to give people problems, JST said as much.
BTW, this is a really neat article:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_0706_americas_best_handling_car
It's nice to see that whenever I find the cayman ridiculously comfortable that I'm not out of my mind and that it can be measured objectively... I love the detailed data in this article, and yes it convinced me that an MCS+some kit can be very fun to drive.
lemming
02-03-2008, 12:42 PM
(I will ignore Lem's last comment.)
I grant that an MCS may be more fun to drive than a Civic Si. I will add that given the much greater space (esp. in last gen Si), the smooth Honda nature, better ride, much lower cost and better expected reliability, the Si is the better buy for me.
Sort of like, the Elise is likely a sharper, "more fun when playing" car than the Cayman S. I haven't driven one, but based on reviews and weight numbers, I have no problem with that statement. But I can drive to Boston in comfort in the latter but not in the former, they're about the same price and the latter holds it own on the track not too shabbily. Hence for me, it is the better car.
My gf puts 75 miles a day on her 02 Si, and frankly, on balance, I think that car is *better* than the 06 e90 which cost us four times as much. Neither of us were honda fans before and frankly few other cars in their line-up appeal to us (of course the s2k). But if everyone in this board is going for an MCS without even considering an Si for daily driving, it is the success of marketing (colors, options, "motoring", etc. etc.). The honda image seems to give people problems, JST said as much.
BTW, this is a really neat article:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_0706_americas_best_handling_car
It's nice to see that whenever I find the cayman ridiculously comfortable that I'm not out of my mind and that it can be measured objectively... I love the detailed data in this article, and yes it convinced me that an MCS+some kit can be very fun to drive.
i was responding more to the fact that you were apparently pissing all over Plaz's decision and as far as i can recall, no one really does that sort of thing --esp. to you. ergo, i was questioning your logic and the veracity of your blanket statement.
There appears to be only pair of pants in that family... :eeps:
Yeah, that's what it is.:rolleyes:
lemming
02-03-2008, 02:44 PM
Yeah, that's what it is.:rolleyes:
i've seen your house, dude.
i've even met your dog.
just ignore.
you're doing just fine. ;)
i was responding more to the fact that you were apparently pissing all over Plaz's decision and as far as i can recall, no one really does that sort of thing --esp. to you. ergo, i was questioning your logic and the veracity of your blanket statement.
Don't worry about me. equ's entitled to disagree with my decision, and believe I'm out of my senses for making it. I won't hold his complete wrongness against him. :D
Does Honda still insist on hobbling the Civic Si with horrible tires?
Of course. It wouldn't be Honda if they didn't. Mine came with the all-seasons. And even in a state where it's always summer, it still very difficult to find an example with the optional, slightly better Pilot Exaltos.
In particular, I like ff's comment about how MINI resale is going to tank (evidence please? everything I have read and experienced says the opposite)
The MINI's resale is very good. But that's not my point. My point is that the market for a used $30K econo-hatch MINI, I'll bet, is going to be almost non-existent. Which would result in taking a healthy loss on resale.
and equ's comment about the MINI not being any more fun to drive then the Civic Si - umm - ok, if you say so.
To quote you, "Evidence please?" I realize that the Si isn't German (golly gosh dang bummer...), but it's possible that it might be just as much fun to drive as the MINI. Maybe even more so. The fact that I've already kept and enjoyed my Si for 12 times longer than I kept [and loathed] the MINI, speaks volumes about which I think is a more fun car to drive and own.
But if everyone in this board is going for an MCS without even considering an Si for daily driving, it is the success of marketing (colors, options, "motoring", etc. etc.).
Exactly.
The MINI's resale is very good. But that's not my point. My point is that the market for a used $30K econo-hatch MINI, I'll bet, is going to be almost non-existent. Which would result in taking a healthy loss on resale.
Hunh? The resale's good, but the resale isn't good? You're contradicting yourself here. If there's no market for something, then the price comes down. You can't separate the two.
The fact that I've already kept and enjoyed my Si for 12 times longer than I kept [and loathed] the MINI, speaks volumes about which I think is a more fun car to drive and own.
The new MINIs are totally different cars. Completely. Both figuratively and literally. I wouldn't have considered the old ones.
John V
02-03-2008, 03:52 PM
For giggles, I optioned a MINI how I would get it if I were buying one. It came to $23,600. Cold weather package, LSD and sport suspension. Done. I don't dig the interior, but to me that's a decent amount of fun little car for $24k. :dunno: ...
... until I built up a Mazdaspeed 3. For $23k (no options needed - it comes with the good stuff standard) it's a better value proposition to me than a MINI.
For giggles, I optioned a MINI how I would get it if I were buying one. It came to $23,600. Cold weather package, LSD and sport suspension. Done. I don't dig the interior, but to me that's a decent amount of fun little car for $24k. :dunno: ...
... until I built up a Mazdaspeed 3. For $23k (no options needed - it comes with the good stuff standard) it's a better value proposition to me than a MINI.
I think everyone here knows this, but since this topic spawned off my waffling thread, it's worth reiterating. I can't see me ever buying an MCS for myself. Well, maybe if I had to drive into the city everyday since the dimensions and tiny overhangs seem to make it breeze to park.
Nope, this car is to make my wife happy. That it handles well enough to make it tolerable and possibly even fun to drive, well, that just makes the purchase feasible at all. My wife wanting a Mini is not too different from me wanting a boat (I don't - this is just an example). I'd never (or almost never) use it. My wife never drives unless she has to, and she has never said, "great, I can take the BWM today." She couldn't care less. She wants the Mini for one reason only: Because it looks cool and she thinks she would be so cool driving her Mini.
So, much like a boat, you either find a way to use it to make it worthwhile, or you have to be very rich to own a boat and not mind it only being used a handful of times a year.
John V
02-03-2008, 04:20 PM
My girlfriend wanted a Mini until she saw the Mazdaspeed 3.
She agrees that the Mini doesn't make a whole lot of sense now.
lemming
02-03-2008, 04:24 PM
My girlfriend wanted a Mini until she saw the Mazdaspeed 3.
She agrees that the Mini doesn't make a whole lot of sense now.
i'd agree to a certain extent.
My girlfriend wanted a Mini until she saw the Mazdaspeed 3.
She agrees that the Mini doesn't make a whole lot of sense now.
We cross-shopped the vanilla Mazda 3 when we looekd at Imprezas. She thought the Mazda looked stupid and had no AWD, so it was out. We wound up with the much better looking (than a base impreza) Saabaru Linear. Knowing my wife, she couldn't care less that the Mazdaspeed 3 is fast. It would still look stupid to her.
lemming
02-03-2008, 04:45 PM
We cross-shopped the vanilla Mazda 3 when we looekd at Imprezas. She thought the Mazda looked stupid and had no AWD, so it was out. We wound up with the much better looking (than a base impreza) Saabaru Linear. Knowing my wife, she couldn't care less that the Mazdaspeed 3 is fast. It would still look stupid to her.
i really liked the Mspeed3 when i drove it. :dunno:
but i agree, for most intents and purposes, it's a guy-mobile.
that said, the ones sitting on the lot cost more to drive off the lot than 22k.
seems like the number was 27k on the sticker.
My girlfriend wanted a Mini until she saw the Mazdaspeed 3.
She agrees that the Mini doesn't make a whole lot of sense now.
I couldn't find one to test drive, and the Mazda dealer never called me back, so I can't speak to this. On paper, certainly, the Mazdaspeed 3 is impressive, but that's all I have to go on at this point.
I understand what ff is saying. Resale on Minis is strong, but with any car the resale value of options is typically a fraction of their cost (things like leather, sunroofs and automatics excepted). Ff, I think, is saying that a 32K Mini is going to take a big hit compared to a 24K Mini, and I think he is probably right.
SARAFIL
02-03-2008, 04:59 PM
I think that if you equip a MINI to the $32K level, you'd better be willing to keep the car forever, or take a huge bath on resale value. It's hard to imagine that there'd be a significant market out there for a used econo-hatch in that price range.
This is true... or, maybe you should consider a lease if you go for a heavily-optioned car. While the lease rates are not very low, the residual percentage is very high, and you can use this to your advantage on a heavily-optioned car. For example, on my parent's MINI, the residual after 3 years is over $20k. With accessories and the JCW package, the retail price was around $31k. If they bought this car, they would take a bit hit, because I can't see this car being worth significantly more in 2 or 3 years than a $25k MCS would have been. It will obviously be worth more, but not $6k more. The slightly higher lease rate is justified by the fact that the residual is $2-3k more than this car will likely be worth in 3 years, in my opinion.
If you are looking at a $25k MCS (and at this price you CAN get a nicely equipped car... you can get one with Sport, Premium, and Cold Weather Packs in one of the 3 non-metallic colors and with a standard cloth or leatherette interior for $25,350), this is a car you can feel safe buying without worrying much about resale.
This is not purely a MINI thing though... it applies to BMWs and many other luxury cars too. Whenever you hear someone say how they got hosed on their BMW resale value, they probably had a heavily optioned car (or tried to sell it after a year, but that is another story for another time). The same situation that I described above applies to a BMW... a $36k 328i vs. a $42k loaded 328i will have very close values in 2 or 3 years... so the guy that bought the $42k one is going to take a bigger hit.
If you care primarily about resale value, buy a basic vehicle and select only the most important options. If you must have all the toys, you need to realize that you'll take a larger hit on resale when you get all the options, and therefore you might want to consider the lease option, or consider driving it into the ground! :D
Hunh? The resale's good, but the resale isn't good? You're contradicting yourself here. If there's no market for something, then the price comes down. You can't separate the two.
I understand what ff is saying. Resale on Minis is strong, but with any car the resale value of options is typically a fraction of their cost (things like leather, sunroofs and automatics excepted). Ff, I think, is saying that a 32K Mini is going to take a big hit compared to a 24K Mini, and I think he is probably right.
That, and perhaps an even bigger hit when you realize that finding a potential buyer for your $32K econobox is probably going to be difficult. You're going to have to come down, way down, to the point where it no longer makes sense for potential buyers to "just buy a new one", instead of buying your used one.
lemming
02-03-2008, 06:05 PM
That, and perhaps an even bigger hit when you realize that finding a potential buyer for your $32K econobox is probably going to be difficult. You're going to have to come down, way down, to the point where it no longer makes sense for potential buyers to "just buy a new one", instead of buying your used one.
just to keep it real --i've actually driven a civic Si (it's not clear that all parties involved here have driven the R56?) and it didn't do it for me. i loved the engine....above 5k rpms and that's the whole point of the engine.
but in the end, it was those characteristics that made it more difficult to choose for stop and go driving.
turbo engines have a tremendous torque advantage and lack of torque being a fundamental problem for small 4 cylinder engine cars, it is a difference maker, IMHO.
Don't worry about me. equ's entitled to disagree with my decision, and believe I'm out of my senses for making it. I won't hold his complete wrongness against him. :D
;) I think I just have a secret hankering for a 128i that I'm projecting... The minis are very popular around here, probably for a good reason. RFT's are a no go though with the "roads" that we have. Are you getting summers on those wheels? I keep thinking PS2's have a great, comfy ride for their level of grip & feedback. Due to warm weather, I had 35f/40r on th cayman today (too much by a few psi) and the ride was still very very good. I think bridgestone goes for stiffer, squarer sidewalls that don't take to our deep ruts as well.
just to keep it real --i've actually driven a civic Si (it's not clear that all parties involved here have driven the R56?) and it didn't do it for me. i loved the engine....above 5k rpms and that's the whole point of the engine.
but in the end, it was those characteristics that made it more difficult to choose for stop and go driving.
turbo engines have a tremendous torque advantage and lack of torque being a fundamental problem for small 4 cylinder engine cars, it is a difference maker, IMHO.
Without a doubt.
But on the same token, why does an engine have to constantly to set you back in your seat while in stop-n-go driving? If anything, not having that huge flow of torque right off idle would be beneficial in traffic (unless you're a driver from the north east, and use your gas pedal as an on/off switch) :)
Sorry I missed most of this. I was busy. :)
I have driven the Si and the MINI in various forms. Saying the Civic is more fun really is only saying that you prefer hondas to other types of cars. They are fabulous for what they are. But the MINI in several variations is way more fun for me.
equ, you have come down really, really hard on the MINI in the past couple of days with no other support then you don't like it. Then you say the Si is more fun - and to me the exact opposite is true. I am not insulting your decision, however. You like it better and that's great for you. I just think it's a funny quote b/c i disagree with it so much. You have made it clear in a variety of places that you are a Honda fan. That's great, but imo, that bias is heavily skewing your preception on this question.
ff's comment (and he is also definately a honda fan!), on the other hand appears not to have been as "out there" as I thought it was. Based on Sarafil's post (and he is the expert), I have to say only that I am surprised and retract my comment.
John V
02-04-2008, 07:01 AM
I couldn't find one to test drive, and the Mazda dealer never called me back, so I can't speak to this.
We couldn't find one a year ago (when we were really really motivated to ditch the Jetta) either, but now it's a different story. They're not common, but there is inventory out there.
Then you say the Si is more fun - and to me the exact opposite is true. I am not insulting your decision, however. You like it better and that's great for you.
See post #120.
lemming
02-04-2008, 10:34 AM
Without a doubt.
But on the same token, why does an engine have to constantly to set you back in your seat while in stop-n-go driving? If anything, not having that huge flow of torque right off idle would be beneficial in traffic (unless you're a driver from the north east, and use your gas pedal as an on/off switch) :)
hey man, all i meant was that it takes revs to get the engine to get the car rolling.
you know, the Si sedan is a lot roomier so i'd not mind owning that car at all. but in reality, i drove my neighbor's Si sedan and there are three things that came out of the test drive that does not come out in print:
1. the car is a spacious! it seems bigger inside than an E46.
2. the shifter is awesome.
3. the powertrain really needs to makes revs to move the car --it's on the heavier side of 2950lbs --which to me exacerbates the need to rev the engine to get it rolling from a start.
the R56, for those who have not driven it, is a lot different from the R53 in the sense that the AUC power is much, much greater. in retrospect, i'd like to have a Clubman S for more space, but with the car paid off, i'm wary to trade it in ATM.
with regard to the Mspeed3, i thought it was a good ride. more so than any car i drove in that time period, i could sense the power going through the front wheels (you think the R56 has some torque steer....). i thought the shifter was a kludge for a mazda product and subjectively, i just did not warm to the car like i did to the GTI or the MCS. i really liked the GTI, too. that was my go-to car if the MCS disappointed.
3. the powertrain really needs to makes revs to move the car --it's on the heavier side of 2950lbs --which to me exacerbates the need to rev the engine to get it rolling from a start.
Interesting comment, because mine moves on out from a dead stop without any trouble at all. Quite "peppy" without having to labor. You were coming from a Z-06, though, so that probably has a lot to do with the feeling or absolute torquelessness.
SARAFIL
02-04-2008, 11:29 AM
Interesting comment, because mine moves on out from a dead stop without any trouble at all. Quite "peppy" without having to labor. You were coming from a Z-06, though, so that probably has a lot to do with the feeling or absolute torquelessness.
I have a used '07 Si out front... i drove it a few days ago and it's a nice car, but I agree with the comment that the engine needs more revs before you start to feel some power. The R56, by comparison, has much more pull from slightly above idle and does not need higher revs to get it going. You need to drive one, because the pull from idle is very, very different from your old R53.
lemming
02-04-2008, 02:15 PM
I have a used '07 Si out front... i drove it a few days ago and it's a nice car, but I agree with the comment that the engine needs more revs before you start to feel some power. The R56, by comparison, has much more pull from slightly above idle and does not need higher revs to get it going. You need to drive one, because the pull from idle is very, very different from your old R53.
honestly.
i've been trying to tell that to anyone who'll listen --the people who've listened ended up buying the car.
:dunno:
;)
*i think i'm going to keep mine because it's paid off, so cheap to insure and so frugal that i'd be dumb to try to trade it in.
lemming
02-06-2008, 07:16 PM
Interesting comment, because mine moves on out from a dead stop without any trouble at all. Quite "peppy" without having to labor. You were coming from a Z-06, though, so that probably has a lot to do with the feeling or absolute torquelessness.
f: did you get your ECU recalibrated to deal with hanging revs?
and R&T just wrapped up their year with an Si --one thing the identified was a tendency for the gearbox to go bad on the 2-3 shift. didn't know if you had run into this, also? sometimes they beat the hell out of their press cars so it doesn't extrapolate well.
but they did manage 26mpg for the year.
Back on waffling topic...
My wife is fortunate enough that at her job she has an on-site emergency daycare center (Bright Horizons). There is no option to use them full time, it's for emergencies only. Still, she gets 20 days a year - free.
Today, she decided to try it out. We always assumed she would have to take the train, but a co-worker told her about a garage nearby that was only $17 all day as long as you were in before 9am and out by 7pm (I was amazed).
Bottomline, she left home at 6:45am and thanks to the HOV lane she was there in 35 minutes. She took the 330i because the the V70R has a laughable turning radius (literally like 41-43 feet - my biggest pet pieve by far).
Anyway, all this to say that it looks like that makes another 15-20 days a year where I could drive a fun car to work (unless it's very bad weather). Not a huge difference, but between that and the fact that she has more vacation time than I do, that's a bunch more days a year that I could drive the fun car.
Of course, today sucked for me because on the one day when I don't have to drive the family around I got stuck with the slushie wagon - and this would always be the case. I now feel even more justification for my sportscar.
At the same time, I know she will claim a MINI woud be nice to have for all those days as well as the few other days when we drive downtown...
clyde
02-27-2008, 04:21 PM
She took the 330i because the the V70R has a laughable turning radius (literally like 41-43 feet - my biggest pet pieve by far).
Despite all the temptation in the world, I will let that comment stand on its own. ;) However...
The Armada's turning radius is 41.0'.
Despite all the temptation in the world, I will let that comment stand on its own. ;) However...
The Armada's turning radius is 41.0'.
And that would get very ugly in downtown Boston.
I've been to several parking garages downtown where the last inch of the 330i's turning radius had to be used, and then often use 3 point turns and wait several minutes for other cars to let you by. It's not just that the garages are tight to begin with, but in an effort to milk as much space as possible, they double park cars and reduce the spaces to manuever to next to nothing. Some places wont even let you park yourself, using a convoluted valet system that often takes an eternity to get your car back. Add the low clearance and long overhang and the V70R is a brutal city car.
Finally, we're talking about my wife here. She who hit my 330i in a tight parking garage in Munich within hours of delivery.
The 335 is 36.1' - seems way larger then any of my cars have been for a long time. The e46 was 34.4' - about a foot and a half, so maybe I just dont' remember what it was like. The e36 is 34.1'. I guess i just need to crank the wheel harder.
Edit - those numbers should be cut in half for the radius, so 18.05, 17.2 and 17.05 - not much difference. The V was 18.1 as well. I am just not certain where the edge of the car is I guess.
I checked and the V70R turning radius is 43.3 feet. Not a typo. And for reference, all other V70's of the same gen (including XC's) vary from 35.8 to 39 feet.
The V70R is so bad, I have been unable to make u-turns on u-turn specific lanes despite bearing right as much as possible in anticipation.
So no, no way I am letting my wife take the V70R to Boston for this and all the other reasons I already mentioned (and add fuel economy for the heck of it too).
Not that it matters, but I think those 40' numbers are turning circles, not turning radius (thus the reason I cut them in half for using the radius term). I could be wrong though.
clyde
02-27-2008, 07:17 PM
Not that it matters, but I think those 40' numbers are turning circles, not turning radius (thus the reason I cut them in half for using the radius term). I could be wrong though.
You're right.
lupinsea
02-27-2008, 07:31 PM
My Wrangler has a turning circle of 32.8 ft. :eeps: :stickpoke:
It's also 155.4" long. . . 0.1" longer than a Miata. It'll fit in the parking spot in the garages. And if it's too tall . . . the windshield fold down. Oh, and I bet you wouldn't care about bumping the Jeep into things, too.
Just more of this--> :stickpoke:
FC, check this out:
01 Boxster S, 28k miles, asking $27.9
http://leith.porschedealer.com/preowned_cars/info.php?inventoryid=367007
More interesting is the post by the previous owner who can't stop thinking about his old car:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?p=5153022
I checked and the V70R turning radius is 43.3 feet. Not a typo. And for reference, all other V70's of the same gen (including XC's) vary from 35.8 to 39 feet.
The V70R is so bad, I have been unable to make u-turns on u-turn specific lanes despite bearing right as much as possible in anticipation.
So no, no way I am letting my wife take the V70R to Boston for this and all the other reasons I already mentioned (and add fuel economy for the heck of it too).
Seriously, when we test drove V70Rs, that was my wife's biggest complaint. She was like, "I can't have a car that I can't turn around in front of the house without having to back up. The Ford Fairmont I had in high school had a better turning radius."
I honestly wonder if we'd have one today if the turning radius didn't suck that bad.
My friend with the CLS was thinking about trading b/c he was bored - nobody is buying used CLS's, so the value is like $36k. I imagine lots of other used high priced cars are suffering similarly. Patience might be a great virtue.
My friend with the CLS was thinking about trading b/c he was bored - nobody is buying used CLS's, so the value is like $36k. I imagine lots of other used high priced cars are suffering similarly. Patience might be a great virtue.
I have been watching E39 M5 prices falling in the last three months I have been looking. Should be easy to get a nice one when I am ready in June.
E55's are really low as well for how much they cost new.
Seriously, when we test drove V70Rs, that was my wife's biggest complaint. She was like, "I can't have a car that I can't turn around in front of the house without having to back up. The Ford Fairmont I had in high school had a better turning radius."
I honestly wonder if we'd have one today if the turning radius didn't suck that bad.
It truly is ass. I happen to hate this probably mroe than most becasue I drove W201's (MB 190's) for 9 years. They were unbelievable. I think the truning diameter was 32 feet. MB's have traditionally been great. My unlce had a 1986 SEL420 and I kid you not, with the wheel locked, you would think the inside wheel was broken. Not only was it turned a bunch but it also tilted outward so much you would never think that was normal.
The V70R is embarrassing because nobody would ever think that a car that size would be so bad and they honk at you thinking you are a sucky driver that can't park (or maybe because they are simply Boston drivers). Thro wi the frontoverhag that seems to be 2' long and :ack: . So again, V70R and downtown garages = bad times.
FC, check this out:
01 Boxster S, 28k miles, asking $27.9
http://leith.porschedealer.com/preowned_cars/info.php?inventoryid=367007
More interesting is the post by the previous owner who can't stop thinking about his old car:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?p=5153022
Nice car, but steep price. If I were to buy a 986S right now, I'd buy JV's without thinking twice. But I've come to terms with waiting until '09. We have about $100K worth of remodeling at the end of the year that will have to paid for mostly in cash, so I need to free up $$$ for that. Next winter/spring I'll be ready. I'm not financing my weekend toy.
Here's another thought: variety.
You mentioned the Wrangler and you've said in the past how much you really want one "but". Maybe consider it again.
You'd have the V70R
The ZHP
And a Wrangler
That would be a nice car line up to give you a wide variety of driving experiences. One of the things I like about my Jeep is that it is SO different than our car. It's not fast, handles ridiculously, pitchs a lot, and other wise is a pretty crappy on-road driver. But it's fun. It's so different and unique that those traits get lumped into the charming character of the Jeep. Granted, the new Jeeps that you'd consider have a better suspension design, will ride stock (not like my lifted Jeep), and have a longer wheel based to provide an even better ride than what I have.
Plus the Jeep will give you some towing options (if you need them), and a utility capacity without having to "worry" about the car. I guarantee you won't be worrying about dirt, scratches, or other things with the Jeep the way you probably do with the Volvo. Not to mention about no worries for scuffing the bumper or other low-clearance issues that you have with the Volvo.
Plus plus, the Wrangler would give you the top-down, convertible driving experience in good weather. Or you can also take off the doors, too (my favorite, it's like you're driving a park bench, just awesome, even at 20 mph).
And, if you're not entirely opposed to four cars, you can pick up a Miata for $8-9k, throw in $1-2k in suspension upgrades and have a nice, sub 2500 lb., LSD equipped, roadster with a great shifter / clutch set up, a fast revving engine that would be happy at 7000 rpm all day long, that is also damn near bullet proof reliable.
So, with a $50k "budget":
$0k to hang on to the V70R
$15k to "keep" the ZHP
$25k for the 4-door Wrangler Unlimited
$10 for a nice Miata setup.
Or . . . do you keep the V70R as your 4-door "car", get the Wrangler, sell the ZHP and get a Mini to make your wife happy. With maybe some left over for an even cheaper Miata?
1999 Mitas are going for $5k on the Edmunds.com TMV price listing. 1999 was the coke-bottle body styling of the NB era.
Damn, lup. I was reminiscing about past waffling and I got to this post. Then I realized that this exact idea from your post is what I've had on my mind all week. Especially the bold line.:eeps:
Nothing is likely to happen this year, but I'm wondering if a new MCS + a Wrangler will keep me happy and entertained long enough to delay a sportscar purchase by some time. A few here seem happy enough with an MCS.
I'm wondering if a new MCS + a Wrangler will keep me happy and entertained long enough to delay a sportscar purchase by some time. A few here seem happy enough with an MCS.
I think you'll miss rwd + smoothness (both things that zhp offers).
I think you'll miss rwd + smoothness (both things that zhp offers).
I agree that I would probably miss it (though a wrangler is RWD, really). Then again, this setup would not be permanent. I could just happen to like the setup, or add a cheap RWD sportscar a year or two after these cars, or a used 987S 3.4 even further down the line. Eventaully the V70R would have to be replaced, and depending on how things go, a nice MT 5er wagon could replace it, or even a sedan. We'll see.
For now, I need to test drive MINI's and Wranglers this year - and the roadsters (+911's) too. I may find out in a few months that I was talking out of my ass re:all this (unlikely, though).
lupinsea
04-07-2008, 07:04 PM
Damn, lup. I was reminiscing about past waffling and I got to this post. Then I realized that this exact idea from your post is what I've had on my mind all week. Especially the bold line.:eeps:
:lol: Sorry, I think you have a serious addiction to perseverating. :D
Oh, I know you're interested in the 4-door Wranglers . . . but also test out a 2-door for comparison (Wrangler vs. Wrangler). It could be interesting. I suspect they'll be a bit different.
I think you'll miss rwd + smoothness (both things that zhp offers).
As FC points our the Wrangler is RWD (and 4WD). If he wants smoothness, let some air out of the tires. :cool:
It's all for FC to figure out but I really like having wide discrepancies in driving experience. . . it amplifies one vs. the other. And you can't get much more different than between a Wrangler and . . . well, just about anything else. But especially if you have a Wrangler and a sporty car (V70R, MINI, ZHP, etc.).
It's one reason I was trying to suggest that if FC wants a Wrangler he get a Wrangler and then figure out his other car line-up. Because almost anything else he gets will be so different from said Wrangler.
Where as, yes there'd be a difference betwee the ZHP, sports car, MINI, etc. but it wouldn't be as dramatic.
I had a 80mph on the highway in mind when I said smoothness, and the rear wheel drive for turns. Anyway, you know what I mean.
:lol: Sorry, I think you have a serious addiction to perseverating. :D
Guilty as charged (obviously). There are reasons for this. There is a history and a story behind this, but it's pretty personal. Let's just say it was a coping mechanism from a long time ago. It has stuck around.
Oh, I know you're interested in the 4-door Wranglers . . . but also test out a 2-door for comparison (Wrangler vs. Wrangler). It could be interesting. I suspect they'll be a bit different.
Maybe, but I want the ability to take the wife, kid(s) and dog plus some light cargo out and about. So in that sense, it will have to be a 4-door. If I test drive a 2-door it will be the last-gen Rubicon, but honestly I probaly won't bother.
As FC points our the Wrangler is RWD (and 4WD). If he wants smoothness, let some air out of the tires. :cool:
It's all for FC to figure out but I really like having wide discrepancies in driving experience. . . it amplifies one vs. the other. And you can't get much more different than between a Wrangler and . . . well, just about anything else. But especially if you have a Wrangler and a sporty car (V70R, MINI, ZHP, etc.).
It's one reason I was trying to suggest that if FC wants a Wrangler he get a Wrangler and then figure out his other car line-up. Because almost anything else he gets will be so different from said Wrangler.
Where as, yes there'd be a difference betwee the ZHP, sports car, MINI, etc. but it wouldn't be as dramatic.
The different experience is a big deal to me. Not that any good roadster wouldn't feel different and great compared to the ZHP (nevermind V70R), but that is why the Elise seems so appealing to me. As a toy, it would be a very different experience.
If it were MY decision alone, I frankly would never trade the ZHP for an MCS. As my mom said the other day when presented with the idea (and she is as clueless about cars as anyone can be), "your [ZHP] seems like a LOT mroe car than [the MCS]." But I have other cars to compliment a Mini, and I no longer have the long commute I used to have. Plus it would be a new car, and woudl make my wife very happy.
I had a 80mph on the highway in mind when I said smoothness, and the rear wheel drive for turns. Anyway, you know what I mean.
I do know what you mean. But I rarely take the 330i on the highway for long drives anymore. The V70R is pretty smooth past 100.
lupinsea
04-09-2008, 12:25 AM
Maybe, but I want the ability to take the wife, kid(s) and dog plus some light cargo out and about. So in that sense, it will have to be a 4-door. If I test drive a 2-door it will be the last-gen Rubicon, but honestly I probaly won't bother.
Well, for someone who was considering a 911 because it had rear seats . . . the 2-door Wrangler would have limo-like comfort compared to a 911 rear seats.
You "can" do a 2-door wrangler, they seat 4. But it'd be like a MINI. Only difference is that you don't have to bend down with the Jeep so it'd be sort of easier putting a kiddo in the back.
On the other hand, I almost burst out laughing when we babysat for some friend's kids. We used the Jeep and took them out to the movies. It was funny trying to watch the kids climb (litterally climb) into the Jeep. They had problems getting their feet over the rocker panel. :lol::lol: So I just picked them up and set them in the back. They really liked being up high, though, once in the Jeep.
But undoubtedly the 4-door would be perfect for a family in the Jeep realm. You get more rear legroom, wider rear seat, easier rear-seat access, and more cargo room (with or without the rear seat). With the rear seat folded flat the 4-door's cargo area is down right cavernous compared to my TJ.
So . . . um, would you get a stick or auto in your Wrangler?
Auto = 4 spd
Stick = 6 spd
I purposely chose the auto in my Jeep but that was purely because I wanted it for off-roading. While I do like it in traffic and around town I might have sought out a stick if I didn't do as much offroading. Or at least, not the level of stuff I get into. Not to say you can't offroad in a stick . . they do quite well, but when it get's REALLY hairy the auto's do much better. Smoother and more controled.
Well, for someone who was considering a 911 because it had rear seats . . . the 2-door Wrangler would have limo-like comfort compared to a 911 rear seats.
You "can" do a 2-door wrangler, they seat 4. But it'd be like a MINI. Only difference is that you don't have to bend down with the Jeep so it'd be sort of easier putting a kiddo in the back.
On the other hand, I almost burst out laughing when we babysat for some friend's kids. We used the Jeep and took them out to the movies. It was funny trying to watch the kids climb (litterally climb) into the Jeep. They had problems getting their feet over the rocker panel. :lol::lol: So I just picked them up and set them in the back. They really liked being up high, though, once in the Jeep.
But undoubtedly the 4-door would be perfect for a family in the Jeep realm. You get more rear legroom, wider rear seat, easier rear-seat access, and more cargo room (with or without the rear seat). With the rear seat folded flat the 4-door's cargo area is down right cavernous compared to my TJ.
So . . . um, would you get a stick or auto in your Wrangler?
Auto = 4 spd
Stick = 6 spd
I purposely chose the auto in my Jeep but that was purely because I wanted it for off-roading. While I do like it in traffic and around town I might have sought out a stick if I didn't do as much offroading. Or at least, not the level of stuff I get into. Not to say you can't offroad in a stick . . they do quite well, but when it get's REALLY hairy the auto's do much better. Smoother and more controled.
Well, I need to account for the dog too, which is why the unlimited is a given. Whatever Jeep/SUV we get has to be slushie to free up MT's on all the other cars.
.............
Anyhow, in true ME fashion, I find myself waffling back to my original PLAN (see? it was a good plan all along ;) ).
The PLAN in its latest revision was for the BMW to be replaced by a sportscar (newish Boxster/Elise) and an old (sub-$5K) Cherokee.
I keep thinking that the Cherokee would do (for my purposes) all that the Wrangler Unlimited would but would save me $25k+. I would give up it being a new car, being cooler and having a convertible top, but for a car I wouldn't use very much, I think I rather save the $25K for now. If it turns out it was all wishfull thinking and don't/can't use it as much as I thought I would, then no harm done. I can keep the beater without feeling guilty, or sell it having lost what, $2K? If it turns out we use it a ton, I could then buy a used Unlimited down the road for a lot less than a new one costs now. I still will test-drive them, but I doubt it would lead to anything except looking forward to one a few years down the road. It may be best to wait until our youngest is a toddler anyhow to get more "family use" out of a family convertible.
So what sobered me up? Well, reading a few feedback posts to reviews where some
guys argued my own point - how is it better than a Cherokee? I think it is, but not $25K better - at least not when I'm not 100% sure about the extent of its use. The other was that when I went to pick up my wife from the train last night, there was a guy picking up his wife in a base 987 in silver. It was as vanilla as it could get (though it did have 987S rims), yet it still looked, sounded (and I know it drives) awesome.
Further pushing the sportscar idea is the new development that my mom will now be babysitting our kid at our house. That means 1-2 times a week, I have no babies in the car at all, just me and my wife. Add the 20 times a year my wife takes him to work + vacations + the possibility (if we get pregnant again) that she could be home for 4-6 months + weekends and all of a sudden the sportscar could really get some reasonable amount of use.
Swapping the ZHP for a MINI is very much still in the cards, but getting one would not deter me from getting the sportscar.
lupinsea
04-09-2008, 02:51 PM
The logic of a Cherokee vs. Wrangler makes a lot of sense in your situation. But you do give up the convertableness as you point out. How much is that worth to you? :dunno: Plus the Wranglers have more cargo volume, too. I think even with the rear seats up, too. The Cherokees seem smaller in comparison. . . it could be because they're shorter in body height (more stationwagon proportion) than the Unlimited Wranglers.
Edmunds lists used 2007 Unlimited X's at $19.5k now. In a year or so when you're ready to pull the trigger on a Cherokee/Wrangler they'll probably be down a bit more. Enough? I don't know.
Of course, IF you do go the Wrangler route I'd argue for the Unlimited X line. The Saharas/Rubicon's really wouldn't get you much but some cosmetic stuff that you'd take advantage of. And if you're not going to be driving the vehicle that much, does it make sense to get all the goo-gahs or to keep it simple? And is it worth the $5k premium (used) to get the offroad goodies on the Rubicon edition.
If you get into offroading you can still do a lot without the Rubi . . . heck, most of the guys I run with don't have lockers. I don't even have lockers (but good LSDs).
Anyways, the Cherokees are a more logical choice in a $$/Use consideration.
2004 TJ Wrangler Unlimiteds are now down to $15.6k. My era of Jeep again, so it's a 2-door but with a stretched body. Not as much room as the new 4-door Wranglers but it's cheaper yet still has more room than than my original short wheel base Jeep.
The logic of a Cherokee vs. Wrangler makes a lot of sense in your situation. But you do give up the convertableness as you point out. How much is that worth to you? :dunno: Plus the Wranglers have more cargo volume, too. I think even with the rear seats up, too. The Cherokees seem smaller in comparison. . . it could be because they're shorter in body height (more stationwagon proportion) than the Unlimited Wranglers.
Edmunds lists used 2007 Unlimited X's at $19.5k now. In a year or so when you're ready to pull the trigger on a Cherokee/Wrangler they'll probably be down a bit more. Enough? I don't know.
Of course, IF you do go the Wrangler route I'd argue for the Unlimited X line. The Saharas/Rubicon's really wouldn't get you much but some cosmetic stuff that you'd take advantage of. And if you're not going to be driving the vehicle that much, does it make sense to get all the goo-gahs or to keep it simple? And is it worth the $5k premium (used) to get the offroad goodies on the Rubicon edition.
If you get into offroading you can still do a lot without the Rubi . . . heck, most of the guys I run with don't have lockers. I don't even have lockers (but good LSDs).
Anyways, the Cherokees are a more logical choice in a $$/Use consideration.
2004 TJ Wrangler Unlimiteds are now down to $15.6k. My era of Jeep again, so it's a 2-door but with a stretched body. Not as much room as the new 4-door Wranglers but it's cheaper yet still has more room than than my original short wheel base Jeep.
Yeah, I thought about those too. It depends when I get a back-up SUV. If my brother sells his '00 Cheorkke next year and I can pick it up for 4K or less, I think I would get it to try it out. We'll see what Wrangler prices look like when I'm ready.
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