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Old 10-02-2017, 12:38 PM   #271
John V
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GM is really the only one doing it right at the moment.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:13 PM   #272
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GM is really the only one doing it right at the moment.
Doing what right? If the answer is "building pony cars," I might concede that, if only because I've never driven a Camaro and maybe it's better than a Mustang, even it's uglier than a day old dog turd.

If the answer is really anything else, I have to disagree. GM is doing it basically all wrong.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:15 PM   #273
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I'll just leave this here: "GENERAL MOTORS IS GOING ALL ELECTRIC"

https://www.wired.com/story/general-...-cars-plan-gm/
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:19 PM   #274
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I'll just leave this here: "GENERAL MOTORS IS GOING ALL ELECTRIC"

https://www.wired.com/story/general-...-cars-plan-gm/
Yeah right.

Sorry, that deserves a more fulsome response. GM has been saying variations of this kind of bullshit for 20 years. I don't believe them. Until I see them a) roll out more than just an LG-designed and built econobox, and b) actually start building EV charging infrastructure, I am going to assume all of this is vaporware bullshit that will either never be built or will be rolled out in a shoddy fashion and then killed in their next strategic change of direction.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:01 PM   #275
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GM is really the only one doing it right at the moment.


The new Camaro is a good, maybe great car. The SS that didn't sell is a good car. The Bolt/Volt is probably a great electric option. The Corvette is a Corvette. Their trucks can haul and pull stuff?

It seems to me that they're relying on giant trucks/SUVs again, then marking them down $10-15k at the end of the year? Aside from the Camaro and MAYBE an ATS-V, which is still a stretch, there are no GM products that I'd consider buying new from dealer right now.

Also, Clyde: you were smiling a lot yesterday and I suspect it had to do with what you were driving!
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:29 PM   #276
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Doing what right? If the answer is "building pony cars," I might concede that, if only because I've never driven a Camaro and maybe it's better than a Mustang, even it's uglier than a day old dog turd.

If the answer is really anything else, I have to disagree. GM is doing it basically all wrong.
Clyde's talking about a Camaro. A Camaro is a pony car. Obviously this is just my opinion, but GM is the only one doing that right at the moment, speaking purely of dynamics.

To my eye the Camaro is also 100x better looking than the Mustang, but that's just, like my opinion, man.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:34 PM   #277
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I drove a somewhat modified 2016 Camaro SS today. Not a 1LE, but the mods it has take it further, mostly. About 60 miles of suburban and freeway driving and four autocross runs. Itís given me a lot to think about.
Did you end up in the grass?
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Old 10-02-2017, 04:01 PM   #278
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Big V8. Car go fast. Not complicated. Simple.

But don't buy a GM, because GMs suck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John V View Post
GM is really the only one doing it right at the moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JST View Post
Doing what right? If the answer is "building pony cars," I might concede that, if only because I've never driven a Camaro and maybe it's better than a Mustang, even it's uglier than a day old dog turd.

If the answer is really anything else, I have to disagree. GM is doing it basically all wrong.
So, you're both right.

For reference, the car I drove is a 2016 Camaro 1SS. The suspension is pretty heavily modded with beefier, higher performance parts, spherical bearings, etc. Massively big ass wheels and BFG Rivals 1.5 (I think). Not sure if they're the same size as the V8 1LE, but they might be. Not sure what's been done to make it make more power, but it's had a little bit, plus a tune that uses non-stock throttle mapping. Exhaust is not stock and slightly leaking. It has race seats in front and replacement panels for where the rear seats were in back. I think the car is about 150 lbs lighter than stock.

I was scared of the gas pedal at first and basically just let it idle up to neighborhood cruising speeds at first, which it did with alarming quickness.

When I was merging from one freeway to another, I was doing about 65mpg. I floored it. It instantly (like, before I consciously realized I was going to do it) kicked down about 18 million gears (it's an auto) and I was thrown back in the seat like no one's business.

At that exact point, my mind went, "Whoa," like Keanu Reeves while my eyes moved to the speedo just in time to see the needle passing 100.

I lifted off the gas and don't remember the last time I laughed so maniacally.

And then I looked over my left shoulder to see if I was clear to change lanes. I guess I was clear because I didn't seem to hit anything, but who can really say for sure?

So, there's that.

The interior plastics are hard and cheap GM. The control stalks feel like a modernish interpretation of the stalks in my mom's 1986 Buick Electra T-Type. Better, but not nearly up to the quality feel of any modern Euro or Japanese can and no where near as nice as in my FoST.

At the event, I was looking in the window slit of a V8 1LE and noticed that it had suede(like?) inserts covering many of the hard plastic areas that annoyed me so much in the car I was driving. So, there's that, too.

I can't really call what I did with the car "competitive driving" since I was about 3 seconds off the car owner, but it was an experience completely unlike the FoST. It felt natural. It felt right. My shitty times were due to three main things (in order, I think):
  • Braking too late in a couple key spots
  • Being way off cones even where tardy braking wasn't the reason
  • Trying to learn the throttle

The first one is a known issue with the driver that I've been working on with occasionally promising results. In this case, I don't know if ice mode was ever an issue. There seemed to be two distinct brake feels: one where there was was feedback, and one where there kind of wasn't. It was like brakes would be on hard and I could feel ABS and then a switch to something...softer, but I wouldn't call it that even if I just did. At no point did it seem to not want to slow down. Except when I was sliding backwards when I spun after the finish on my first run.

I'd fix being off the cones with a little more time in the car.

The throttle was a lot of "what the hell?" and it wasn't just me. Someone else took a few runs in the car at the end of the day and at dinner he described a lot of the same as when I felt (but he dealt with it a lot better). The tip in is kind of awkward and the mapping isn't very linear. It's also not stock. The car owner says it's better than stock, but, um, dunno. I also don't know how much more power it's making than stock or how different the natural power delivery might be. The car owner does fine with it. The other guy that drove it yesterday was pretty uncomfortable with it, but not sure it slowed him down at all.

Between my over-abundance of caution with the right pedal and the mapping, I did a pretty lousy job of smoothly rolling on the throttle and finding/keeping the right spot.

Driving the car on the street, I kept marveling at the trueness of vector of rear wheel drive where steering is decoupled from throttle. Even witht he steamroller tires and stiff suspension, the car itself felt remarkably stiff and absorbent of anything the road threw at it.

Getting back into the FoST was what really made the Camaro feel coffin like as opposed to first getting into the Camaro. Getting into the FoST, I felt like Iw as riding 10 feet high and was ensconced in a glass bubble. I felt exposed and vulnerable. It was weird. Then, the controls, buttons and switches in the FoST felt much lighter and slicker.

This all leaves me thinking, well, if not the Camaro, then what? And nothing I can think of really fits better than the Camaro. And I'm still just as conflicted on the turbo4, 1SS, 1LE question if the Camaro is the answer.

And I went for a ride in John V's 330 yesterday for the first time which was also the first time I've been in a car with R comps since 2010. That was not an uncomplicating event.
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Old 10-02-2017, 04:15 PM   #279
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This all leaves me thinking, well, if not the Camaro, then what?


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Old 10-02-2017, 07:25 PM   #280
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///M?

///Maintenance Intensive?
///More Money?
///Myth?
///Marketing?
///Mirage?

Just not feeling any of them at reasonable cost.
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