Tesla Model S waffling

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by ZBB

Other than the composite structure, you're describing the Model S.

The Tesla is basically all aluminum... And it already gets a $7500 federal subsidy, with state susidies of $5k to $7500 avail from many states...

Well, Audi and Jag have built aluminum unibodies as well - and that's great , but I'm thinking something more exotic and more complete - and something that would get the weight down into an area that's truly impressive - the current weight of the Tesla model S is 4600lbs (our large Infiniti M35x weighs in at 4000 and has a ton of room) - imagine if it were half that.

As for federal involvement, I'm think the subsidizing of materials with which to build the car - directly to the manufacturer - it's the only way to really get "light weight car" industry off the ground. And that's where the focus should be. Imo.

[ZBB]

Very good points.

But I wonder who will be the fast follower to Tesla's strategy... Everyone is following Toyota on hybrids -- but it took years for anyone other than Honda to offer hybrids (Honda beat Toyota to market in the US by a few months with the '99 Insight). Ford licensed Toyota's technology and released the Escape hybrid in '04, but the next non-Toyota or Honda hybrid on the market was the '07 Altima -- and since nearly all now offer at least one hybrid.

[lemming]

Originally Posted by ZBB

Tesla does not use rare earth metals in the Model S: http://www.teslamotors.com/en_CA/for...metals-model-s

They do use lithium in the battery, but lithium is not classified as rare earth. I don't know the source country, but Chile and Australia are the largest producers -- combined they have over 3x the production as China. Tesla also has a battery recycling program in place - http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesl...ycling-program

taken literally, i understand your point of view. taken more broadly, the point is to question the impact of the battery packs and the sourcing of the materials and that impact.

it needn't be just China. it's any country that will ignore modern US standards (EPA).

and we've touched upon the recycling issue. the most fair way to say it is, it's nebulous at best, not 100% recycling, and needs to be reduced to practice to see how well it works out. right? we can speculate, but they haven't had to deal with that issue just yet in a meaningful way.

[JST]

Originally Posted by ZBB

Very good points.

But I wonder who will be the fast follower to Tesla's strategy... Everyone is following Toyota on hybrids -- but it took years for anyone other than Honda to offer hybrids (Honda beat Toyota to market in the US by a few months with the '99 Insight). Ford licensed Toyota's technology and released the Escape hybrid in '04, but the next non-Toyota or Honda hybrid on the market was the '07 Altima -- and since nearly all now offer at least one hybrid.

I'm disappointed that it is not BMW. It may be Mercedes, given Daimler's involvement with Tesla. It may also be Toyota, for the same reason.

If I were God of the Auto Industry, though, you know who I'd designate to be Tesla's fast follower?

Lincoln.

Why?

Because Lincoln doesn't have anything to lose. Unlike BMW or Mercedes, a line of stylish electric vehicles wouldn't cut into Lincoln's core product line. It wouldn't undercut Lincoln's brand identity, because Lincoln doesn't really *have* a brand identity. Setting Lincoln up as Ford's electric car company would tie the company to future technologies and innovation in a way that the current lineup just can't do.

It would be a bold strategy, and couldn't rely on half-measures. You'd have to go chips all-in: a new platform, new tech, and broom out every existing Lincoln save for maybe--MAYBE--the MKZ hybrid. But it would be quite a statement and would finally give Lincoln a reason for existing.

[ZBB]

Wait... are you saying Lincoln has a core product line?

[bren]

Lincoln still exists? huh.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by JST

I'm disappointed that it is not BMW. It may be Mercedes, given Daimler's involvement with Tesla. It may also be Toyota, for the same reason.

If I were God of the Auto Industry, though, you know who I'd designate to be Tesla's fast follower?

Lincoln.

Why?

Because Lincoln doesn't have anything to lose. Unlike BMW or Mercedes, a line of stylish electric vehicles wouldn't cut into Lincoln's core product line. It wouldn't undercut Lincoln's brand identity, because Lincoln doesn't really *have* a brand identity. Setting Lincoln up as Ford's electric car company would tie the company to future technologies and innovation in a way that the current lineup just can't do.

It would be a bold strategy, and couldn't rely on half-measures. You'd have to go chips all-in: a new platform, new tech, and broom out every existing Lincoln save for maybe--MAYBE--the MKZ hybrid. But it would be quite a statement and would finally give Lincoln a reason for existing.

So, when does Ford buy Tesla and rebrand?

[JST]

Originally Posted by bren

Lincoln still exists? huh.

Originally Posted by ZBB

Wait... are you saying Lincoln has a core product line?

I rest my case.

[ZBB]

Originally Posted by lemming

taken literally, i understand your point of view. taken more broadly, the point is to question the impact of the battery packs and the sourcing of the materials and that impact.

it needn't be just China. it's any country that will ignore modern US standards (EPA).

and we've touched upon the recycling issue. the most fair way to say it is, it's nebulous at best, not 100% recycling, and needs to be reduced to practice to see how well it works out. right? we can speculate, but they haven't had to deal with that issue just yet in a meaningful way.

So how do you propose powering your laptop and other mobile devices? They use lithium batteries also.

Or are you only worried about it since there is an alternative to electric cars called the internal combustion engine? The process of obtaining oil is even more dirty than obtaining lithium. At least with the lithium, we only need to obtain enough volume to make the battery. With oil, you use at least the same volume a few times per month.

I'm really not an eco-weenie, but starting to sound like one! I'm an economist by training, so one of the things I admire most is efficiency. And if I can get efficiency and performance, even better -- and the Tesla gives me both of those...

[lemming]

Originally Posted by ZBB

So how do you propose powering your laptop and other mobile devices? They use lithium batteries also.

Or are you only worried about it since there is an alternative to electric cars called the internal combustion engine? The process of obtaining oil is even more dirty than obtaining lithium. At least with the lithium, we only need to obtain enough volume to make the battery. With oil, you use at least the same volume a few times per month.

I'm really not an eco-weenie, but starting to sound like one! I'm an economist by training, so one of the things I admire most is efficiency. And if I can get efficiency and performance, even better -- and the Tesla gives me both of those...

all of my devices combined would not amount to 1/100th of a Tesla battery --that argument is a true syllogism and as you are an economist, i run an R&D dvision and we tend to be fact and data driven. clyde would be the first to point out that i'm not always clear, however.

i'm not espousing the internal combustion engine over anything. i'm pointing out the raw materials issue with this approach. you bring up the cost to get oil. i can bring up the cost to burn coal to fire the plants to generate electricity. but we'd both be out of bounds because we're not addressing the impact of Li mining.

i'm not an eco-weenie, either. i like to be aware of the issues 360 degrees, though, and have an objective point of view that is defensible.