08-07-2020, 10:42 AM | #31 |
dogged
Join Date: Dec 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: '22 M440 xDrive GC
Posts: 13,337
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There are a 4-door few cars still out there that offer a manual:
Crosstrek, Impreza, and WTI Mazda3 Mini is bringing them back VW GTI VW Jetta Some Audis A few BMWs Some Toyota trucks/econoboxes Probably some others I'm not remembering... |
08-07-2020, 11:03 AM | #32 | |
195
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Sorry, when I said "4 door" I was thinking sedans. As far as I can tell it's just the WRX, Civic Si and Jetta GLI. You're right that there are a few additional hatchbacks with sticks. |
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08-07-2020, 11:05 AM | #33 |
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13,514
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+ Civic Sport, Si, Type-R (all 4-doors)
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08-07-2020, 11:51 AM | #34 | ||
Chief title editor
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The modern manuals I've had experience with in recent years have had such major downside in everyday use that I'd be lying if I said they were net positives (if a better than average modern slushie was also available) to the driving experience. And those cars have had performance characteristics that preclude playful use on public roads in all but the rarest of conditions. At best, it's been neutral, but mostly they've been net negative. For the Camaro specifically...I don't know how much the manual experience of the turbo matches the V8. I don't know if the DBW behavior is similar. I do know that the V8 has enough power that full throttle first and second gear will not be good choices on the street and that third gear will do just about everything well enough that the other five forward gears may as well be decorative. OTOH, I know that an automatic in the Camaro provides a pretty dramatically entertaining, yet controlled, experience at 65 mph when it instantly kicks down a few gears at full throttle to shoot a gap while a manual tranmissioned car need to be downshifted and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait for the gap to open providing a less dramatic and entertaining, yet much more nauseating (due to much a more sketchier and sensitivity to throttle movement while waiting for the gap to open) experience in that very common everyday scenario. Modern day manuals don't give me anaphylactic reactions like plates of crabs do, but that doesn't make them good. I categorically refuse to accept the premise that a modern car is a better car or provides a better experience just because it has a manual transmission installed because it's no more true than an alternative fact. It sure seemed to up until maybe 15-20 years ago, but it's now clear that was much more an example of correlation than causation. Denying that is a choice to believe what one wants to believe independent of what the facts present. That's my view.
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08-07-2020, 11:54 AM | #35 |
Western Anomaly
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: White Orca
Posts: 16,639
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@clyde: I like your comment about the need to go back to pre-2000 cars.
The best driving experience I’ve ever had was when my 1999 M3 got t-boned and in the interim, I bought a 1991 MX5 Miata. To this day, nothing else matches that car for a great analog driving experience (if you were ever in a rush, that was a problem, but...)
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08-07-2020, 12:13 PM | #36 | |
Hello.
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Carmudgeonly Ride: '09 X3, '11 328xiT, '11 135i C, '17 c2, '19 X5
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Josh (PA) - '19 X5 '17 991.2 C2 Cab '11 135i Convertible '11 328xiT '09 X3 |
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08-07-2020, 12:16 PM | #37 |
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I probably wouldn’t have bought an Accord; I thought about test driving one but then lost my mind and bought the M3.
It’s also true, though, that I’ve made buying decisions with “stick” as a sine qua non. I wouldn’t have bought an E61 auto; I wouldn’t have bought a Countryman auto. I wouldn’t buy an A4 auto. Not sure if/when I’ll be in the market for a mainstream sedan, but if I were...well I guess I could learn to love the GLI? I don’t expect Honda to keep building Accords, if I and others aren’t buying them. But I lament their loss. Your point about multi gear lockdown is right, I guess, but does that make up for the times when you feel an elemental connection with the car during a well executed up or down shift? It doesn’t really for me, partly because the chances to shoot gaps like that in my daily driving are basically non existent. And while I hear you on the quality of today’s manuals, it’s certainly not universally true. The M3 is good, and even the 5.0 Mustang has its charms (though smoothness isn’t really one of them). |
08-07-2020, 12:17 PM | #38 |
195
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Ha, yes, Josh—but as much as I disliked rhe Countryman, I disliked the automatic countryman even more!
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08-07-2020, 02:32 PM | #39 | ||
Chief title editor
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As you point out re: Countryman, when the automatics are lousy, they're lousy. And, as you also pointed out at the time, when the manual transmission is lousy, it can be lousy enough to admit a mistake and move on. Quote:
That said, the V8 Camaro also has automatic rev matching downshifts. It has to be enabled (I think with each start up) and has two huge fucking paddles on the steering wheel to do it. At face value, I'd rather it not have them, but if the DBW throttle is as wonky as the turbo's and makes downshifting more reliable and consistent, I'll use it because I just don't get any pleasure downshifting for a red light, speed camera, or slower traffic ahead...and there are about 37,000 of those events in-between opportunities for enjoyable downshifts. For upshifts, fighting the car to execute bizzaroly timed shift mechanics is not my idea of fun or making an elemental connection. I'll take your word that the M3's is good, but everything in real world driving is so far from the car's edges that it doesn't matter. The car is too good for itself to be fun.
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08-07-2020, 02:38 PM | #40 |
Relic
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 12,470
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This is also why I like the E90 with the taps opened a little bit. The torque curve means that you have to drive it, NA w/ ITBs means that the throttle is super responsive (when programmed correctly), there's no irritating turbo lag like the N55 and B58, and because it's relatively low torque, you get to rev it out.
Stock, the S65 is a little unsatisfying because the exhaust and tune cork it up so much, but fix the exhaust and tune it and yum. And it's just comfortable enough to meet the minimum threshold for work.
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