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Old 09-13-2019, 01:44 PM   #1
clyde
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Feels like I've been here before

I am feeling the itch to replace the Camaro, exscept I kinda don't want to, except I do. I'm torn in a bunch of ways for a bunch of reasons.

In short, the context is this:

I think the car is past its prime for national autocross competition and I'll be more happy competing in something else next year.

It has 36,000 miles on it and Carvana's latest offer is $18,017. For reference, I paid $19,000 for it new 18 months ago.

My main problem is that I don't know what to get to replace it. I'm okay spending up to $40k, but I get less and less okay the further I'm north of $30k. The only car I *want* in that range is a 2017+ Camaro SS 1LE. It ticks the boxes and I want it, but 17s and 18s have an ABS calibration issue that might be problematic for me (prone to ice mode). It's fixed for the 19s, but the 19s are ugly.

The 1LE is not favorably classed, but is probably on stronger ground than the turbo Camaro in its class. At least until Elon issues an OTA update for the 3 Performance and insta-obsoletes the 1LE. As it stands, the 3 with some more traditional development may be a run away class leader...or one of a couple other cars could be. But the 1LE makes the right V8 noises.

Pricing for 1LEs is...odd. When I bought my car, I could have bought a leftover 2017 1SS 1LE for about $31k. I think I posted before that part of my plan was to sell the turbo after a year or so for close to what I paid for it and buy a 1LE for a $31k minus 1 year depreciation, or high $20s. Well, there was nothing close in that range a year ago. Used, they were all going for more than I could have bought one new. Flash forward another year and the only ones with ask prices in the high $20s have super high miles and/or stories and/or heavily modded that would be a PITA and/or expensive to undo. Can find 17s and 19s with ask prices in the low/mid $30s all day long. maybe I can get one for $29-$30? Great. But I can probably get a new 2019 for $34 today and maybe $32 or even as little as $30 next month (depending on incentives). The 19s are ugly, but they fix the ABS issue and come with a fancy rear view mirror camera/display that is supposed to vastly improve rearward visibility. The 2020s mostly fix the ugliness mistake of 2019, but they're a little more, but not so much more that it doesn't make sense. I just really don't like climbing that ladder to spending more for incremental gains.

Somehow, whatever is making my car non-depreciating seems to be bouying the rest the rest of the Camaro platform. How unfair.

The other cars I've been thinking about:

2013-2016 FRS/BRZ to run in SSC, which is a spec class. It requires purchase of a suspension kit from Tire Rack and running a spec tire. There's a lot that appeals. As a spec class, everyone runs the same car with the same parts and the same tires (and I have a feeling that the tire wars are going to be bloody and expensive next year in the other street tire classes). The class is healthy sized and has had a lot of good competition its first two years. The cars are cheap and cheap to own. A set of tires easily fits in the back seat. The downsides are that I don't want the car and don't want to run the car

ND2 Miata. Because Miata. It'll be a good car in its stock class at least next year and there is a simple upgrade path to a higher prep level that will probably exist for a couple years after that.

E9x M3. Car seems to be the car for its class, maybe. The 2011 ZCP seems to be the one to have. DCT or stick doesn't seem to matter much. Everyone seems to like them. They're priced nice right now. But they're range limited. Oh, and that rod bearing problem. Plus, I don't really wanna.

Civic Type R. I don't really want to, but maybe I should drive one before ruling it out?

And then there's this...

I could start modding my car for one of two higher prep levels. I may be able to create a competitive car that is still streetable, but I'd be really nervous about driving it to/from travel events and I'd really want a truck and trailer. That quickly becomes the most unreasonably expensive out of pocket solution, but also makes the most logical sense if I do anything.

The most logical sense is to keep the Camaro and resign myself to a miserable year or find someone to codrive with and put it off for a while longer.
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:48 PM   #2
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Oh, the 2020 EcoBoost Mustang would also be a contender, but probably more $ than I want to spend on it and it hasn't been classed yet, so, iffy.
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:16 AM   #3
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Is the ABS calibration going to be a big issue in competition? I guess when wet, but will you trigger it with sticky tires on the dry?

My 987.1 Cayman occasionally got confused by bumps when braking and could lengthen the braking distance. There was a particular off-ramp that did it. Never felt it on the 997, which had much better brake feel nor on any 981 (GT4 or Boxster S).

A quick read of your thoughts, I focus on the "emotion" words. E.g. miserable... That means you should make a jump. You've also pretty much written out what you want: the SS 1LE. They are expensive for the same reason that you didn't lose any seeming money. Bite the bullet and buy the best one you can. Don't go from a car that you owned from brand new to a high mileage one.
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:28 AM   #4
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Agreed. Youve been talking about a V8 ponycar for...as long as Ive known you. Buy one. Scratch the itch.

Based on what you said above Id buy a new one. Its more expensive on the front end but Camaros weirdly seem to hold their value, so...treat yoself.
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:35 PM   #5
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We've talked some about this topic a bit. I know autocross has become a very important part of your decisions, so I would say to get something that is very competitive or "the car" in whatever class you want to run. If you're like my new outlook on this, you're going to think about what you could have done differently, but if you're in a car other than "the car" for the class with the best prep, we know the outcome won't be what we want. That's the reason I was driving the Civic Si this year.

If top national event autocross results are a secondary motivation for your next purchase, get your V8! Even with a V8, I think you would do well but may not fully be where you want to be in autocross results with the V8.

I still love my FR-S and will eventually get to the STX class where I want to be, but I don't think you would love SSC. Though, they're great cars and the rules stability seems ideal for next year.

I hate saying it because I will probably be running against you at local stuff in my FR-S next year, but I think your answer is the ND2 Miata. It is "the car" for the class and only needs some tires, Konis, and a front bar.

I love the M3s and the Type R, but I don't know if they'd be your best choice?

It's not on your list and you've already had the FoST, but I enjoyed the Civic Si this year and enjoyed being in a competitive car. My coworker who bought his FoST when you did just traded his for a new Si and loves the Si. I think it puts you down the road you went several years ago, so I don't think I can recommend it for you, but I really like the new Si!

C6 Corvette? They're not for me, but they also have a V8.
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:42 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clyde View Post
Carvana's latest offer is $18,017. For reference, I paid $19,000 for it new 18 months ago.
That is incredible.

I wouldn't drive it next year if it's not competitive. If there isn't a competitive car that you want, find a co-driver for a year. Then you can either keep the camaro if you like it, or buy something fun without having to worry about classing.

An ND2 miata does sound pretty fun though.
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:56 PM   #7
clyde
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Quote:
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Is the ABS calibration going to be a big issue in competition? I guess when wet, but will you trigger it with sticky tires on the dry?
The 2016-2018 ABS calibrations are prone to enter an "ice mode like state" (some of the GM engineers and test drivers on another forum, while acknowledging the condition exists, are adamant that it not be called "ice mode") in certain common autocross conditions. It's most likely where there is a rapid and hard brake application on a bumpy section or beginning before the car is stable after a quick transitional maneuver.

Basically, vertical chassis motion relative to the wheels puts the car at risk. "Better" shocks reduce the issue significantly, but there really aren't any better shocks available without spending way too much money...and while it reduces the frequency of events, it doesn't eliminate it.

Tires with more grip than OE are part of what cause the events. The computer is calibrated with OE tires and expect OE levels of traction. When it gets to the edge of what the computer thinks the tires can handle an event begins even thought the tires on the car can handle more.

Drivers that initially stab the brakes have more of a problem with it than those that squeeze at initial brake application. On my car, it's only affected me a handful of times, but my codriver has experienced it at least once at almost every event we've done together.

It's a real issue that affects the regular SS Camaros worst. Some really good drivers have run the car and moved on because of it. Like I said, it's an issue in the turbos, but not as bad. The SS 1LEs don't suffer from it as bad because of the magnetic shocks. I think the 2018 1LE got a revised calibration and that might be usable to "fix" the other 2018 cars (not clear that 1) it was re calibrated or 2) if it was, that it can be used...SCCA Solo rules need some kind of documentation from GM to make it ok)

---

I hear you all on what i should do. I don't really understand the Camaro pricing in the new and secondary markets...I'm just trying to roll with it. I'd like to get out of the current car while I can get my money. If I bought a 1LE (new or used) for $30 or a little higher, I'm basically where I would have been two years ago, right?

The ND2 intrigues me a lot and I have to stop myself from thinking about it, lest it gain too much traction.

The more I think, the less money I want to spend and instead set the difference aside for competition budgets. This past year was going to be a big cost year for travel and event entry as planned and it wound up being more expensive than that for a variety of "what are you gonna do? " reasons. For example... $35 or $80 to replace a single missing lugnut?

ALl the money stuff is pretty fresh and I haven't paid my credit card statements covering the past few weeks yet. I imagine it won't be so raw after that.
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:12 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by clyde View Post

It has 36,000 miles on it and Carvana's latest offer is $18,017. For reference, I paid $19,000 for it new 18 months ago.
That is incredible. The car owes you almost nothing.

I thought this seemed like a pretty good deal til reading what you paid.

Big difference between 1LE and 2LT? I wonder how much premium

Oh, and what sight do you use to decode this car? seems like they are showing an inflated MSRP and no link to the window sticker.

I wonder how much of a premium is the "Hot Wheels" stickers?
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:40 PM   #9
clyde
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Originally Posted by kognito View Post
That is incredible. The car owes you almost nothing.

I thought this seemed like a pretty good deal til reading what you paid.

Big difference between 1LE and 2LT? I wonder how much premium

Oh, and what sight do you use to decode this car? seems like they are showing an inflated MSRP and no link to the window sticker.

I wonder how much of a premium is the "Hot Wheels" stickers?


Mixing a whole lot of apples and oranges.

That car is a 2.0T four banger with the 2LT package. That package in 2018 was basically the "Technology Package" of larger (8" vs 7") center screen, Bose and two extra speakers that my car has; heated and ventilated leather seats, dual zone climate, eight speed slushie; and remote start (although you can get the 2LT with a stick and sans remote start, too).

2LT was only available on the 4 and 6 cylinder cars. The V8s were either 1SS (which were similarly equipped to the base/1LS smaller engine cars) or 2SS which included everything from the 2LT and a little more. The differences across these packages were all basically comfort/convenience type things.

The cars came/come with a few ala carte performance options, most being dealer installed. There's a brake package, a springs/shocks/bars package, a HD cooling package, etc. There's also a dealer installed "1LE Suspension Package" for the V8 cars that includes parts of the full 1LE pacakge.

The V8 and V6 cars have had a 1LE package available since 2017 model year.

On the V6, the 1LE package replaced the V6s standard shocks, springs and bars with those of the regular V8 versions, (I think) added the HD cooling package, and black satin wrap for the hood.

The V8 1LE package includes stiffer springs, mag shocks, slightly different suspension geometry allowing a lot more camber, much wider wheels, a very trick and magical electronic LSD, HD cooling, big brakes, and allowed the further selection of Recaro seats and a performance data recorder (PDR) that records data and video available.

In 2019, a 1LE package was made available for the four cylinder that includes the same V6 1LE package and opened the door to Recaros and the PDR.

The 1LE for the V8 is a $7k option (MSRP) and $4500 for the four cylinder (and i think similar pricing on the V6). The Recaros add another$1600 and PDR $1300.

The Hot Wheels thing was a special color, some interior trim, and stuff like that. Nothing really meaningful, but makes the car feel a lot nicer. There is also an RS package that adds some LED things, changes some trim colors,upgrades the instrument area dash display (enough that I've thought about retrofitting), and includes 20" (vs 18" base) wheels, but nothing really performance meaningful.

MSRP on my car was $29ish. The car you're looking at is a much "nicer" car. Much of what reminds me that I have a cheap GM car is in the interior and they are (mostly) suitably addressed on the car you linked. Whether that makes it worth the MSRP or what they're asking, You need to do some research. Chevy does not do a good job at making window stickers available (Ford is amazing). If the dealer doesn't have it on their site, you need to ask them for it.
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Old 09-15-2019, 09:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clyde View Post
Mixing a whole lot of apples and oranges.

That car is a 2.0T four banger with the 2LT package. That package in 2018 was basically the "Technology Package" of larger (8" vs 7") center screen, Bose and two extra speakers that my car has; heated and ventilated leather seats, dual zone climate, eight speed slushie; and remote start (although you can get the 2LT with a stick and sans remote start, too).

2LT was only available on the 4 and 6 cylinder cars. The V8s were either 1SS (which were similarly equipped to the base/1LS smaller engine cars) or 2SS which included everything from the 2LT and a little more. The differences across these packages were all basically comfort/convenience type things.

The cars came/come with a few ala carte performance options, most being dealer installed. There's a brake package, a springs/shocks/bars package, a HD cooling package, etc. There's also a dealer installed "1LE Suspension Package" for the V8 cars that includes parts of the full 1LE pacakge.

The V8 and V6 cars have had a 1LE package available since 2017 model year.

On the V6, the 1LE package replaced the V6s standard shocks, springs and bars with those of the regular V8 versions, (I think) added the HD cooling package, and black satin wrap for the hood.

The V8 1LE package includes stiffer springs, mag shocks, slightly different suspension geometry allowing a lot more camber, much wider wheels, a very trick and magical electronic LSD, HD cooling, big brakes, and allowed the further selection of Recaro seats and a performance data recorder (PDR) that records data and video available.

In 2019, a 1LE package was made available for the four cylinder that includes the same V6 1LE package and opened the door to Recaros and the PDR.

The 1LE for the V8 is a $7k option (MSRP) and $4500 for the four cylinder (and i think similar pricing on the V6). The Recaros add another$1600 and PDR $1300.

The Hot Wheels thing was a special color, some interior trim, and stuff like that. Nothing really meaningful, but makes the car feel a lot nicer. There is also an RS package that adds some LED things, changes some trim colors,upgrades the instrument area dash display (enough that I've thought about retrofitting), and includes 20" (vs 18" base) wheels, but nothing really performance meaningful.

MSRP on my car was $29ish. The car you're looking at is a much "nicer" car. Much of what reminds me that I have a cheap GM car is in the interior and they are (mostly) suitably addressed on the car you linked. Whether that makes it worth the MSRP or what they're asking, You need to do some research. Chevy does not do a good job at making window stickers available (Ford is amazing). If the dealer doesn't have it on their site, you need to ask them for it.

I used the encoder on this page https://chevroletforum.com/forum/vindecoder.php And it comes up with different price data than on the car link I posted above. Big difference. I'd rather be better educated before making the hour + drive to check out this car in person.

I guess I'll give them my contact data and ask for the window sticker info.

Thanks for your input!
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