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Old 03-01-2019, 01:13 PM   #21
robg
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Which is a whole lot of "fuck you" to your customers. But I get that's beena thing with Tesla from day 1.
Yep. My guess is that Model 3 customers might be ok with it, but its harder to imagine someone spending 80k+ on a new Model S or X without a test drive (unless they're just trading in for a newer one).

They've already essentially done this w/ CPO cars- you can't test drive them. And I don't think you can return them either.

Given that they still have service centers, it wouldn't seem too hard to just allow people to book test drives in 1 of the loaner vehicles.
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Old 03-01-2019, 01:27 PM   #22
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People on TMC are cranky about the next wave of price drops. I loved this quote
It always amazes me when people complain about depreciation of cars or tech. Should be added to the saying about death and taxes. Especially with tesla- they change their pricing atleast once a week it seems.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:38 PM   #23
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But could it really be worse than the average 4 cyl turbo with which it competes at this price point?
I'm not accepting the down sides of an EV if it merely matches the characteristics of a 4 cyl turbo.

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It always amazes me when people complain about depreciation of cars or tech. Should be added to the saying about death and taxes. Especially with tesla- they change their pricing atleast once a week it seems.
And it's worse than that. Tesla has stated from the beginning that they are dedicated to improving efficiency and continuing to offer lower cost vehicles. Then when prices drop people are outraged.


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Which is a whole lot of "fuck you" to your customers. But I get that's beena thing with Tesla from day 1.
How is it a "fuck you to your customers" to make your company more efficient, allowing you to produce better vehicles at lower prices?

They continue dropping prices across the whole range, and included more features in the $35k version than anyone expected. They are producing quality products that people love and they keep getting cheaper so more people can enjoy them.

Man, that's terrible for the customer.
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Old 03-01-2019, 03:43 PM   #24
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"Last year, 78% of all Model 3 orders were placed online, rather than in a store, and 82% of customers bought their Model 3 without ever having taken a test drive. Customers can now buy a Tesla in North America via their phone in about 1 minute, and that capability will soon be extended worldwide. We are also making it much easier to try out and return a Tesla without a test drive. You can now return a car within 7 days or 1,000 miles for a full refund. Customers are becoming increasingly comfortable making purchases online, and that is especially true for Tesla — which is a testament to the products we make."
On CNBC, they just brought up the question of "how quick does Elon return the "full refund"

As of 3:00PM eastern, the 940 million dollar bond payment has not been made
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Old 03-01-2019, 04:10 PM   #25
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How is it a "fuck you to your customers" to make your company more efficient, allowing you to produce better vehicles at lower prices?

They continue dropping prices across the whole range, and included more features in the $35k version than anyone expected. They are producing quality products that people love and they keep getting cheaper so more people can enjoy them.

Man, that's terrible for the customer.
My office building is going through a horrible renovation that is moving thousands of people from individual offices into 36 and 72 sq ft cubes of open office space. The idiotic FAQs and guides that go out regularly include awesome tidbits like:

"Q: I've read that studies have proven open office spaces reduce morale; productivity; and work product quality, while causing increases to stress; disciplinary actions; and sick days. Why are we doing this?

"A: Most changes in life have both positive and negative impacts. We're choosing to only focus on the positive impacts of open office spaces like opportunities for increased communication and collaboration among your colleagues."

How is demanding $35k or more along with everything else buying a car entails for a test drive not saying "fuck you" to their customers? Especially when the driving experience of a Tesla is so completely unlike that of nearly every other car that's ever been made? I'll even give them the benefit of the doubt that the return process will be absolutely no sweat easy peasy two minutes from saying "I want to return this" to everything be done (which we all know the process will be nothing of the sort).

Whatever good things Tesla may be doing in the customer experience, no test drives and no place to look and touch is a fuck you. Nothing less. And please try to remember, or even acknowledge, that the current Tesla customer is still an inside-the-bubble-metro-area-SFH-living, technology-fluent rich dude that wants to be cool and hip among his peers (gender specific on purpose). It's nowhere near being a regular person.

I'd say, "Enjoy communicating and collaborating with your colleagues in your cube while drinking the Kool Aid!" but it looks like you've knocked it back quite a few already.
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Old 03-01-2019, 04:23 PM   #26
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"Q: I've read that studies have proven open office spaces reduce morale; productivity; and work product quality, while causing increases to stress; disciplinary actions; and sick days. Why are we doing this?

"A: Most changes in life have both positive and negative impacts. We're choosing to only focus on the positive impacts of open office spaces like opportunities for increased communication and collaboration among your colleagues."


FWIW, I only half believe the argument I was making. But I do think it has merit.

Allowing test drives increases the cost of the car. If 82%+ of people say "I'd prefer to save $X,XXX on my purchase price than have test drives available" then killing test drives is "screwing" a small minority. Ya cant' make everyone happy, eh?

This offends me less than BMW's approach of neutering the product to save a buck.
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Old 03-01-2019, 04:56 PM   #27
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I'm not accepting the down sides of an EV if it merely matches the characteristics of a 4 cyl turbo.
I guess it depends on how you use it, right? My assumption is that if ~90% of your driving is a commute of, say, <80 miles round trip and you can charge at home, it wouldn't be less convenient than a gas car. Or am I being foolishly naive about EVs? (Of course a used Nissan Leaf could do the same thing at a cheaper price, but I'm assuming the base Model 3 customer would otherwise be leasing something like a base spec 320i).
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Old 03-01-2019, 05:29 PM   #28
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FWIW, I only half believe the argument I was making. But I do think it has merit.

Allowing test drives increases the cost of the car. If 82%+ of people say "I'd prefer to save $X,XXX on my purchase price than have test drives available" then killing test drives is "screwing" a small minority. Ya cant' make everyone happy, eh?
Allowing test drives adds thousands of dollars to a car? I don't believe it. Eliminate all expenses that don't directly return revenue because their finances are so precarious they have no other choice? I can believe that.

Tesla has shown some creativity in the past. Why not now? If the goal is to eliminate the financial burden on the company, there are ways to do it without saying fuck you to their customers.
Aside: maybe you're right. Maybe it's not a fuck you to their customers. You're their customer, not Joe Blow on the street. Maybe it's just a, "Fuck you, Joe Blow. Ima hang with my buddies that are buying what Ima selling and fuck you what you think!" Maybe it's just a fuck you to all the people that might possibly become their customers if they weren't such dicks.
Put a trailer office in a broken up parking lot with a few cars, like Enterprise, and offer 30, 60, or 120 minute rentals for $50 or $200—which can be applied towards purchase. Whatever. Maybe save money and don't have a trailer or people, just cars, and just a few of them. Customers book their rentals online, get a code to unlock and the start the car at the appointed time. It still sucks compared to traditional test drives, but it solves their problem without.

Run a never ending stream of arrive and drive events, also a nominal charge that can also be applied towards purchase.

These ideas have drawbacks to conventional test drives, but have some advantages for both buyers and seller. Nominal fees, limited availability, and inconvenient times and locations weeds out many of the lookie loos and the ones that wind up not buying cover the cost of running the show. Maybe not perfect, but a hell of lot closer to perfect while also solving their problem of their own making than yelling, "fuck you!" in their *potential* customers' faces.
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Old 03-01-2019, 05:43 PM   #29
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Allowing test drives adds thousands of dollars to a car? I don't believe it. Eliminate all expenses that don't directly return revenue because their finances are so precarious they have no other choice? I can believe that.

Tesla has shown some creativity in the past. Why not now? If the goal is to eliminate the financial burden on the company, there are ways to do it without saying fuck you to their customers.
Aside: maybe you're right. Maybe it's not a fuck you to their customers. You're their customer, not Joe Blow on the street. Maybe it's just a, "Fuck you, Joe Blow. Ima hang with my buddies that are buying what Ima selling and fuck you what you think!" Maybe it's just a fuck you to all the people that might possibly become their customers if they weren't such dicks.
Put a trailer office in a broken up parking lot with a few cars, like Enterprise, and offer 30, 60, or 120 minute rentals for $50 or $200—which can be applied towards purchase. Whatever. Maybe save money and don't have a trailer or people, just cars, and just a few of them. Customers book their rentals online, get a code to unlock and the start the car at the appointed time. It still sucks compared to traditional test drives, but it solves their problem without.

Run a never ending stream of arrive and drive events, also a nominal charge that can also be applied towards purchase.

These ideas have drawbacks to conventional test drives, but have some advantages for both buyers and seller. Nominal fees, limited availability, and inconvenient times and locations weeds out many of the lookie loos and the ones that wind up not buying cover the cost of running the show. Maybe not perfect, but a hell of lot closer to perfect while also solving their problem of their own making than yelling, "fuck you!" in their *potential* customers' faces.
I expect that they'll backtrack on this no test drive thing in a few months-- as you point out there's plenty of less crappy ways to save money but still offer test drives. Seems like a lot of their troubles could've been avoided by just having regular franchise dealers. I know that's anathema but, to me, Tesla has become a case study in how great it is to have traditional dealers. Having to self-manage showrooms, servce centers and inventory across the whole world is a huge thing to try and take on. Now, if they eventually move to something like a month-to-month subscription model, then sure go nuts with doing everything online.

And, yeah, as a possible customer my impression of Tesla now is that they're dicks. The whole f'ed up customer hostile CPO buying process is what first made me arrive at that conclusion.
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Old 03-01-2019, 08:04 PM   #30
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And, yeah, as a possible customer my impression of Tesla now is that they're dicks. The whole f'ed up customer hostile CPO buying process is what first made me arrive at that conclusion.
The whole f'ed up customer hostile experience start to finish, top to bottom is what first made me arrive at that conclusion.

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showpo...9&postcount=71
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