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Old 01-03-2020, 12:38 PM   #1351
clyde
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Right, which is what I said above--they are going to class it in a place where they hope to bury it and prevent people from campaigning it, so that they don't have to deal with it.

As much as this unnamed SEB member claims to be embracing the future, the attitude is "this electric family sedan scares the members because it doesn't vroom vroom like everything else, but while some members are so terrified of this grocery getter that they want to exclude it entirely from competition, in my magnanimity I will allow it to compete so long as it does so only with purpose built sports cars."
Posts crossing in the digital ether...

I don't think they're trying to keep people from campaigning them. I think they're trying not to fuck up everybody else's day if someone does.

Zack Barnes to put a name to him. I don't think that's what he was saying at all. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't agree.
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Old 01-03-2020, 12:55 PM   #1352
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Okay, so what's your alternative proposal that maintains at least a passing resemblance to consistency in preserving competitive balance in healthy classes?

I think your posts have described a position of, "Leave it where it is, if letting the very small number of people that want to run the car drive away the comparatively very large number of people that want to drive other cars and, unlike Tesla drivers, have been showing up, too bad."

I'm sure you wouldn't characterize it like that, but that's what it sounds like.

I do wonder how my own plans influence my thinking. The car I'm probably going to buy would have competed with it directly in 2019 and done horribly at most events just because of weather. At the same time, that was my plan when I expected it to stay in the class. i didn't think it was the right decision to put it there originally, but once made...okay.

The more I've thought about it, the more I've been thinking this is a very good correction in line with the program's goals which include favoring cars that people show up in over cars that might be a good fit, but come with tons of uncertainty, doubt, inspire fear...and people really don't show up in.

There were 53 drivers in BS at Nats last year, 6 in Teslas. At the other eight National Champ Tour events, 5 of 77 drivers were in Teslas. 12 of 101 drivers across 11 Pro Solo events.

I have no insights into what's going to happen, but if I had to guess, I'd be least surprised by a single EV class in 2021 growing to 3-5 EV classes by 2030 with the number of classes dependent on how many sporty EV car models exist by then.

I mean, Teslas are relatively new, so saying that the drivers "don't show up" in them seems wrong. In fact, it seems like 10-12 percent of drivers driving Teslas is a pretty big number, given that we're talking about a single model. Maybe that's wrong, but it doesn't seem like people are unwilling to campaign them.

Sure, there's a whole lot of uncertainty and fear about what Teslas mean for autocrossing amongst the membership. A lot of people (including, I submit, you) irrationally dislike them. There's really only one way to change that, and it isn't dumping them in a class where they won't have an impact--it's letting them compete and seeing what happens. If they turn out to be an overdog, you can always reclass them, and the good news about that approach is that you'd have data to back up your decision, rather than just fear of the unknown.

A single EV class is really, really dumb. That part I can't emphasize enough. The EVs that will be available in 2021 and 2022 are going to be different enough that classing them all together won't make sense. The whole world is switching to electric and hybrid propulsion; SCCA can't wall them off in a garden and pretend they don't exist. The only sensible approach is to integrate them as quickly as possible and let people get used to them.

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Okay, so what's your alternative proposal that maintains at least a passing resemblance to consistency in preserving competitive balance in healthy classes?
Leave it in B stock, where it appears so far to be competitive but not dominant? The fact that it has a weather advantage is interesting, but so what? Some years that will matter a lot. Some years it won't matter at all. That kind of gamble is part and parcel of picking the car you want to compete with.

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Old 01-03-2020, 01:45 PM   #1353
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I mean, Teslas are relatively new, so saying that the drivers "don't show up" in them seems wrong. In fact, it seems like 10-12 percent of drivers driving Teslas is a pretty big number, given that we're talking about a single model. Maybe that's wrong, but it doesn't seem like people are unwilling to campaign them.
A few people ran 3s last year to prove a point or just see what would happen and had no plans of continuing with the car into 2020 (and there's another that did and is now very salty). Perhaps a more telling presentation of the numbers would also show how many individual drivers there were in addition to how many times they drove. So, if four events each had 10 drivers and some of those drivers were at multiple events, we could see there was 1 Tesla driver out of 25 unique drivers we'd get a clearer picture.

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Sure, there's a whole lot of uncertainty and fear about what Teslas mean for autocrossing amongst the membership. A lot of people (including, I submit, you) irrationally dislike them. There's really only one way to change that, and it isn't dumping them in a class where they won't have an impact--it's letting them compete and seeing what happens. If they turn out to be an overdog, you can always reclass them, and the good news about that approach is that you'd have data to back up your decision, rather than just fear of the unknown.
I don't irrationally dislike the car, but if it fits your narrative, have at it.

Reclassing cars in street should happen for three reasons: 1) promote healthy participation across all classes, 2) better satisfy the membership's wants and 3) fix mistakes. #3 is a last resort. Experimentation is fine to a degree. They put it in BS and saw what happened. It got a significant performance bump OTA after classing, proved to be unstoppable in anything other than perfect weather on high grip surfaces, and people didn't come out to play with them.

For a car as popular, hip, and amazing as the 3 is supposed to be and with the favorable classing it had last year, 10% of class participation is not that impressive.

Lesson learned with supporting data that it's a destablizing presence that people don't want to run. So, they did something about it.

That's what you're asking for, right?

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A single EV class is really, really dumb. That part I can't emphasize enough. The EVs that will be available in 2021 and 2022 are going to be different enough that classing them all together won't make sense. The whole world is switching to electric and hybrid propulsion; SCCA can't wall them off in a garden and pretend they don't exist. The only sensible approach is to integrate them as quickly as possible and let people get used to them.
If there would only be a single EV class for all eternity, I'd agree with you, but I don't see that happening. It's a lot more likely EVs and ICE cars will be mixed in the same classes than there being only 1 EV class for more than a couple years - with the speed of expansion directly related to how many people show up in them and/or show a desire to do so.

You're also way out in front on the "whole world is switching to electric" thing. Take a look at the ages of cars in the Street classes. While there's a lot of late model stuff, the average age of Street class cars is probably 5-7 years old (not including ES). Yet you're demanding a comprehensive solution and integration model for cars that don't even exist yet?

You're also suggesting there is a foregone conclusion that the club has to immediately accommodate EVs. The club moves into the future at a ploddingly slow pace, yes. But the members don't move all that fast either. If the membership demands faster action, the club will respond. But, so far, the demand for action is coming from people that openly state they aren't going to show up anyway.

It's only my speculation that they'll add an EV class in 2021.

So, I'll ask again, what's your alternative proposal that maintains at least a passing resemblance to consistency in preserving competitive balance in healthy classes?
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Old 01-03-2020, 01:53 PM   #1354
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Originally Posted by clyde View Post
A few people ran 3s last year to prove a point or just see what would happen and had no plans of continuing with the car into 2020 (and there's another that did and is now very salty). Perhaps a more telling presentation of the numbers would also show how many individual drivers there were in addition to how many times they drove. So, if four events each had 10 drivers and some of those drivers were at multiple events, we could see there was 1 Tesla driver out of 25 unique drivers we'd get a clearer picture.



I don't irrationally dislike the car, but if it fits your narrative, have at it.

Reclassing cars in street should happen for three reasons: 1) promote healthy participation across all classes, 2) better satisfy the membership's wants and 3) fix mistakes. #3 is a last resort. Experimentation is fine to a degree. They put it in BS and saw what happened. It got a significant performance bump OTA after classing, proved to be unstoppable in anything other than perfect weather on high grip surfaces, and people didn't come out to play with them.

For a car as popular, hip, and amazing as the 3 is supposed to be and with the favorable classing it had last year, 10% of class participation is not that impressive.

Lesson learned with supporting data that it's a destablizing presence that people don't want to run. So, they did something about it.

That's what you're asking for, right?



If there would only be a single EV class for all eternity, I'd agree with you, but I don't see that happening. It's a lot more likely EVs and ICE cars will be mixed in the same classes than there being only 1 EV class for more than a couple years - with the speed of expansion directly related to how many people show up in them and/or show a desire to do so.

You're also way out in front on the "whole world is switching to electric" thing. Take a look at the ages of cars in the Street classes. While there's a lot of late model stuff, the average age of Street class cars is probably 5-7 years old (not including ES). Yet you're demanding a comprehensive solution and integration model for cars that don't even exist yet?

You're also suggesting there is a foregone conclusion that the club has to immediately accommodate EVs. The club moves into the future at a ploddingly slow pace, yes. But the members don't move all that fast either. If the membership demands faster action, the club will respond. But, so far, the demand for action is coming from people that openly state they aren't going to show up anyway.

It's only my speculation that they'll add an EV class in 2021.

So, I'll ask again, what's your alternative proposal that maintains at least a passing resemblance to consistency in preserving competitive balance in healthy classes?
It sounds to me like they should be banned.

EDIT: I've said all I can say on this. I think the classing decision is dumb, but whatever. It's not my hobby, and my opinion is worth exactly zero. I had some casual interest in trying to get back into it, but have no desire to run in SS, which maybe is just an excuse on my part, who knows?
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Old 01-03-2020, 02:26 PM   #1355
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I promised myself I wouldn't post here anymore, but I figured there would be an uproar over this re-classing so I poked my head in to find myself correct. So against my better judgement...

First, I'm on the Street Prepared advisory committee but I'm not on the SEB or the S(treet)AC. But, from a rulesmaking standpoint, we try to class cars by class philosophy as well as performance. Ultimately we don't want something that meets the philosophy of a class while falling outside the performance envelope.

Second. The M3P was initially classed in BS because the expectation was that it would be competitive with cars like the 1M, the M2, the Cayman, the ponycars, etc but that its weight, lack of tire and camber would really limit its ultimate performance. As it turns out, on a majority of courses the Tesla is the best out of those cars despite being pretty limited in tire and camber and carrying a lot of weight. What Clyde failed to mention (or I missed it) is that the car was competitive during national events while driven by a far from top-tier driver. When Nationals rolled around, a top-tier driver won in the car despite having almost zero seat time in it, and having no prep done to the car other than tires. The car will get faster with decent shocks (the factory shocks are awful). I think it'll get a lot faster with a sway bar change as well. It's outside the performance envelope of BS.

Another nuance we take into account when classing cars is "course and condition dependency." Even though a Corvette Z06 might run the same times as a Miata on some courses, we don't class them together because a minor course change within the typical range of elements will cause a major disparity to emerge. This is the Tesla's trump card. It is fast regardless of conditions and regardless of course design because of the ability of the computers, software and AWD system to make use of every bit of traction available. These cars accelerate just as hard in a straight line in the wet as they do in the dry. Think about sealed asphalt versus concrete. Or a gravelly lot versus concrete. Nothing can touch the Tesla in anything other than ideal conditions. The only way you could really kill one of these is to design a truly speed-maintenance course with no acceleration zones. These don't exist in National SCCA Autocross.

Okay, so SS seems like a stretch. Except, does it? SS is only 0.2 seconds faster than AS, on average, on a typical course. SS is made up of a lot of nutty cars, but most of their performance is not usable around an autocross course on 200TW tires. The NSX is the closest analogue, and I grant you that under most conditions the NSX will be faster than the Tesla. But it's also really wide, and we saw at Nationals that width can be a penalty. Would I pick an M3P for SS? Most of the time, no, but it's honestly not a bad choice. It will come off of corners faster than anything in the class, no question. It currently doesn't slalom as well, but with some better shocks and a bar, it won't be far off. In damp or wet conditions the M3P will destroy everything in the class. And history tells us that Nationals is almost never completely dry.

Finally, and this is another thing we take into account... do people want to autocross these? I talked at length with the Nationals winner about the M3P and he said he hated autocrossing it. In his words, it's no fun at all once you get past the initial shock and awe of "point the wheel where you want to go, mash the pedal and let the computers figure it out." He ran the car at Nationals to prove a point - that it doesn't belong in the class. The prior year's winner (previously in a 1M) also showed up in one and he also told me it was no fun, but that he thinks it's the only chance he had. Now, autocrossers can be lemmings for sure, but these are two top-tier drivers (the guy who won this year is really an alien driver) and I trust their judgment.

Bottom line, as clyde already stated... the SEB had a tough decision. 1) Let BS, which has been one of the most diverse and popular classes, dwindle and die at the hands of a clear overdog, or 2) Move the car to a class where it isn't a clear overdog but is still capable of winning or trophying under most conditions. I think they made the right decision.
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Old 01-03-2020, 04:08 PM   #1356
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Thanks for the perspective (coming from somebody who has never tried your sport)...
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Old 01-03-2020, 05:36 PM   #1357
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Points taken--and apologies to clyde for any earlier surliness.
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Old 01-03-2020, 11:18 PM   #1358
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Points taken--and apologies to clyde for any earlier surliness.
No apologies necessary, but thanks.

FWIW, I wrote most of my posts today in between doing things at work that I really didn't want to do. So, for whatever impact that had on what I said or how, my intent was to be neutral and try to talk about the best place to go from here and how to get there. If that's not what happened, I'm sorry.
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Old 01-03-2020, 11:20 PM   #1359
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Ha ha ha very much same.
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Old 01-20-2020, 07:36 PM   #1360
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A single EV class is really, really dumb. That part I can't emphasize enough.
There were some announcements a couple days ago at the SCCA Convention. Still waiting on better wording, but as described on the SCCA's Solomatters Facebook page:

The EV-X class is aimed at 100% electric sports car-based automobiles giving them them a home to highlight their unique capabilities. This category is intended to appeal to regional/local competitors as well as National Solo events. It will also be eligible for competition at Tire Rack Championship Tour and ProSolo events, giving 100% electric vehicles a home that highlights their unique capabilities. This class is not eligible for contingency or Super or Ladies Challenges but will be eligible for the Bonus Challenge.
Not entirely clear yet where this (and the other non-EV related announcements that no one likes) came from.

My prediction is that 2021 will have at least two EV classes
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