carmudgeons.com  

Go Back   carmudgeons.com > Automotive Forums > Car Talk > Perseverators Anonymous

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-10-2020, 04:18 PM   #11
JST
195
 
JST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 22,280
I haven't driven an ND. In fact, it's been decades since I've driven a Miata of any kind. I remember them being extremely hilarious fun, though kind of slow.

And, yeah, it's hard to justify rationally paying 10x a cheap Miata for a 987, though I think it's a lot easier to justify 1.5 to 2X an ND for a 981.

That said...the Boxster is just such a good car. It's so much nicer to drive, in terms of fine detail, than any BMW I've driven--I used to prefer it to the E90 M3, and I still prefer it to the F80. The 987 and the 981 are pretty different, but my short drives in 981s leave me convinced that that inherent goodness remains in those cars.

It's the kind of car you can buy and keep for 10 years or more, and every now and then think "I don't drive that enough, I should sell it," and then decide "no, I just like it too much and I'll never find anything better for the price." Ask me how I know.

I still want a 911, but I think I mostly want a 911 because I haven't had one. I don't think the 911 is a better sports car even if it's faster.
JST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2020, 04:46 PM   #12
Alan
What ev's
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by JST View Post
I don't think the 911 is a better sports car even if it's faster.
Now THAT is an interesting debate right there !!

I think the majority here prefer a Boxster/Cayman to the 911 ... me ... I prefer the 911.
Alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2020, 04:55 PM   #13
FC
Solving problems
 
FC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: '21 GTI, '18 M3 ZCP, '13 LR4, '11 Miata
Location: Metro Boston
Posts: 23,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
Now THAT is an interesting debate right there !!

I think the majority here prefer a Boxster/Cayman to the 911 ... me ... I prefer the 911.
Well, I had an '07 987S and I'd take it over the 997TT. I wish I still had that Boxster. But for the minimal use and how new it was at the time, I simply could not afford it.
FC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2020, 04:58 PM   #14
FC
Solving problems
 
FC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: '21 GTI, '18 M3 ZCP, '13 LR4, '11 Miata
Location: Metro Boston
Posts: 23,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by clyde View Post
I don't know what the anniversary edition Miata is going for, but the new ND I would buy would have run about $27k immediately before COIVD.
You can certainly option them sub 30k, but I would want most/all the bells and whistles. I'm just being honest.
FC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2020, 07:00 AM   #15
John V
No more BMWs
 
John V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Carmudgeonly Ride: 987S, Ram, MS3, CX-5, RX-8
Location: Glenwood, MD
Posts: 13,500
Now you're speaking my language. I've had a similar debate going for almost three years, with the extra wrinkle that I already own a late 987S in ideal (for us) spec.

First off, I love Miatas, but I can't see replacing this car with a Miata. They just don't have enough room for long-distance travel, and that's a major use case for us. Second, it's almost equal dollars to go from our car to a new ND. Maybe a used ND2?

Second, I'm with you (FC) on the later four cylinder cars. It seems like they will depreciate faster than any Porsche in recent memory, but the turbo 4 ruins the car, IMO. The sound and feel are all wrong for me.

Third, 981s are great. A little big, and a little disconnected-feeling, but great. The interior and exterior styling are a big step up. But man, I have a hard time ponying up $50k for a used car especially when it only does things *a little* better than a car I already own and love. Some unseen force pulls me back when I see a used vehicle price with five digits and a '5' up front, particularly when I know the number my car would sell for starts with a '2'

I guess if I were in your shoes with an M3 in the garage I'd have a really hard time pulling the trigger on another expensive sports car. I don't really see the point. Don't they execute pretty much the same mission? Maybe that's just an indicator of how detached I've become from modern BMWs. I don't really see the point of the M3, as it exists today
John V is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2020, 07:53 AM   #16
FC
Solving problems
 
FC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: '21 GTI, '18 M3 ZCP, '13 LR4, '11 Miata
Location: Metro Boston
Posts: 23,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by John V View Post
Now you're speaking my language. I've had a similar debate going for almost three years, with the extra wrinkle that I already own a late 987S in ideal (for us) spec.

First off, I love Miatas, but I can't see replacing this car with a Miata. They just don't have enough room for long-distance travel, and that's a major use case for us. Second, it's almost equal dollars to go from our car to a new ND. Maybe a used ND2?

Second, I'm with you (FC) on the later four cylinder cars. It seems like they will depreciate faster than any Porsche in recent memory, but the turbo 4 ruins the car, IMO. The sound and feel are all wrong for me.

Third, 981s are great. A little big, and a little disconnected-feeling, but great. The interior and exterior styling are a big step up. But man, I have a hard time ponying up $50k for a used car especially when it only does things *a little* better than a car I already own and love. Some unseen force pulls me back when I see a used vehicle price with five digits and a '5' up front, particularly when I know the number my car would sell for starts with a '2'

I guess if I were in your shoes with an M3 in the garage I'd have a really hard time pulling the trigger on another expensive sports car. I don't really see the point. Don't they execute pretty much the same mission? Maybe that's just an indicator of how detached I've become from modern BMWs. I don't really see the point of the M3, as it exists today
I agree on your points re: ND vs. Boxster. I've had one and it's a very different vehicle. It's just MUCH nicer. My struggle for a while has been and (continues to be) the high acquisition cost of a 981. I agree. 50k is A LOT for a used car like that. I have no beef owning a 6-10 yo Boxster. But they should not cost that much. I know it was over a decade ago and bought as a steal in the depths of a recession, but the fact that I got a not-quite 2yo 987S loaded and CPO for $40k, makes it tough to swallow >$40k for a 7yo car. But these are different circumstances and supply is much smaller, so I expect the value to hold. The real penalty should be seen as the "extra" $10k tied up on the car.

As for the M3, well, I have young kids with activities. Often times friends need rides to and from games.

If I am being honest, I do have some regrets for not having just bought a GTI instead of the M3 (though I put a MASSIVE amount of value to that ED trip). I had a feeling this may come up. Kids are now walking to school so the sedan is not as needed, and COVID has only made things worse. But I love having it and I love the setup with the Miata. It just looks dumb if I get the 981S.

An additional complication is that the Miata is the designated winter beater. If it goes then I have to commute more in winter in the M3 when that resumes.

But again, since this is likely not to happen until next spring/summer, by then I will have had the M3 for 3 years, so if it becomes a less ideal choice after 3 years of use, that's not that big a deal.

Last edited by FC; 08-11-2020 at 08:40 AM.
FC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2020, 08:20 AM   #17
equ
Alphanumeric
 
equ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Carmudgeonly Ride: 981S, 340i
Posts: 9,112
Quote:
Originally Posted by John V View Post
Now you're speaking my language. I've had a similar debate going for almost three years, with the extra wrinkle that I already own a late 987S in ideal (for us) spec.

First off, I love Miatas, but I can't see replacing this car with a Miata. They just don't have enough room for long-distance travel, and that's a major use case for us. Second, it's almost equal dollars to go from our car to a new ND. Maybe a used ND2?

Second, I'm with you (FC) on the later four cylinder cars. It seems like they will depreciate faster than any Porsche in recent memory, but the turbo 4 ruins the car, IMO. The sound and feel are all wrong for me.

Third, 981s are great. A little big, and a little disconnected-feeling, but great. The interior and exterior styling are a big step up. But man, I have a hard time ponying up $50k for a used car especially when it only does things *a little* better than a car I already own and love. Some unseen force pulls me back when I see a used vehicle price with five digits and a '5' up front, particularly when I know the number my car would sell for starts with a '2'

I guess if I were in your shoes with an M3 in the garage I'd have a really hard time pulling the trigger on another expensive sports car. I don't really see the point. Don't they execute pretty much the same mission? Maybe that's just an indicator of how detached I've become from modern BMWs. I don't really see the point of the M3, as it exists today
I somehow thought you'd sold your Boxster, happy to hear you still have it.

I would have had a 987.2 if I could but they were very hard to find in 2015-16 for what I thought were "reasonable" prices.

Subjectively:

The 987.2 has some major advantages over the 981:
- Better steering feel (hydraulic)
- Simpler cabin/narrower car
- Slightly more playful drive (less smooth susp?)
- Better gearing/none of this 20" nonsense
- A real handbrake, none of this e-brake nonsense

The 981 has
- Better outside looks (especially on the boxster, less on the cayman)
- Better cabin, perhaps comfier seats
- Smoother shifter
- Proper firm brakes
- Perhaps more settled/planted drive; smoother suspension
- A bit better engine sound, non-PSE to non-PSE

There is not much upgrade there if the 987.2 is in good shape. The engines are the same, the gearing and steering are better on the 987.
equ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2020, 08:40 AM   #18
JST
195
 
JST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 22,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by John V View Post
I guess if I were in your shoes with an M3 in the garage I'd have a really hard time pulling the trigger on another expensive sports car. I don't really see the point. Don't they execute pretty much the same mission? Maybe that's just an indicator of how detached I've become from modern BMWs. I don't really see the point of the M3, as it exists today


Quote:
Originally Posted by FC
As for the M3, well, I have young kids with activities. Often times friends need rides to and from games.

If I am being honest, I do have some regrets for not having just bought a GTI. I had a feeling this may come up. Kids are now walking to school so the sedan is not as needed, and COVID has only made things worse. But I love having it and I love the setup with the Miata. It just looks dumb if I get the 981S.
It comes down to whether you need to carry more than 1 person someplace. Obviously the Boxster can't do that. In every other way, the Boxster is the more fun car to drive; I'm not even sure that the M3 is better on trips, because I find that car weirdly tiring to drive on the highway. But really, I remember driving a 986 and an E36 M3 back to back (ish) in 2001 and coming to the same conclusion. I don't think the intended mission of the M3 has changed that much, even if it's porked up a lot over the years and basically turned into an E39 M5.

I take FC's point that it feels extravagant to have both an M3 and a Boxster, and there's some merit to the idea of selling the M3, getting a 981, and replacing the M3 with a GTI (which would do better in the winter, as well). Selling the M3 would also let you avoid expensive out-of-warranty costs in a few years.

But the M3, as unfavorably as it compares to the Boxster, is still a hell of a lot more special feeling car than the Golf--even the R. The days when you *do* have to carry more than one person, you'd miss it.
JST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2020, 08:45 AM   #19
FC
Solving problems
 
FC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: '21 GTI, '18 M3 ZCP, '13 LR4, '11 Miata
Location: Metro Boston
Posts: 23,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by equ View Post
I somehow thought you'd sold your Boxster, happy to hear you still have it.

I would have had a 987.2 if I could but they were very hard to find in 2015-16 for what I thought were "reasonable" prices.

Subjectively:

The 987.2 has some major advantages over the 981:
- Better steering feel (hydraulic)
- Simpler cabin/narrower car
- Slightly more playful drive (less smooth susp?)
- Better gearing/none of this 20" nonsense
- A real handbrake, none of this e-brake nonsense

The 981 has
- Better outside looks (especially on the boxster, less on the cayman)
- Better cabin, perhaps comfier seats
- Smoother shifter
- Proper firm brakes
- Perhaps more settled/planted drive; smoother suspension
- A bit better engine sound, non-PSE to non-PSE

There is not much upgrade there if the 987.2 is in good shape. The engines are the same, the gearing and steering are better on the 987.
I would (and am) willing to consider a 987.2 but a few things hold me back:

- I had one (987.1) and had it over a decade ago. To go back to one after all this time somehow feels weird.
- The discount over 981 is nowhere near what it should be, IMO.
- The 981 looks better is much more modern and that ups the likelihood that I'll keep it for a long time.

But to the extent that I am looking for fun first and speed 2nd, maybe I should be more willing to get a late 987.2S.
FC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2020, 09:21 AM   #20
clyde
Chief title editor
 
clyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 25,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by FC View Post
I know it was over a decade ago and bought as a steal in the depths of a recession, but the fact that I got a not-quite 2yo 987S loaded and CPO for $40k, makes it tough to swallow >$40k for a 7yo car. But these are different circumstances and supply is much smaller, so I expect the value to hold.
Are today's used prices consistent with what they were in January? Right now is a really weird time in the used car market. If we consider January "normal," wholesale used prices are up about 20% overall from normal. I haven't been paying attention to Porsche pricing through this, so I don't know how they fall in comparison to the general market.

Quote:
But again, since this is likely not to happen until next spring/summer, by then I will have had the M3 for 3 years, so if it becomes a less ideal choice after 3 years of use, that's not that big a deal.
By next spring/summer, used car values may have returned to normal as well. Maybe if you can prep yourself today to spend $50k, when the time actually comes, a $44k price is going to be a lot easier to mentally swallow?
__________________
OH NOES!!!!!1 MY CAR HAS T3H UND3R5T33R5555!!!!!!1oneone!!!!11

Team WTF?!
What are you gonna do?
clyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Forums 2003-2008, 'Mudgeon Enterprises - Site hosting by AYN & Associates, LLC