Finally drove Wrangler unltd (Rubicon)

[John V]

I don't really see the point of owning ANY of those vehicles where you live. That being said...

The JGC and 4Runner have at least a modicum of civility on the road. They're not bad on the freeway, they're reasonably quiet, and they provide far more off-road capability you would ever need (which is to say, you need none and they both have some).

Maybe I'm reading your writeup incorrectly. Here's how I read what you wrote: it didn't have much room, it had miserable lights, miserable brakes, knobby tires that weren't well suited to on-road use, lots of body roll, wouldn't be comfortable or quiet on longer trips, was slow to accelerate... honestly, what's the point?

[lupinsea]

Originally Posted by John V

Yes, I understand your point of view. But you seem to be an extremely dedicated off-road enthusiast who has access to some proper terrain to enjoy a vehicle like a Jeep. FC is talking about using this as a general "around town" kind of vehicle and he lives in New England. Not exactly prime off-roading territory. Do you see the difference?

No. You, obviously, are forgetting about FC's neighbor's yards.


Regardless.

I think if he compares it to a JGC I suspect the JK will have more general space inside. I know my aunt's circa '02 JGC doesn't have all that much room inside (about as much as our Volvo V50 with only a smidge more headroom) and with it's solid front and rear axles probably rides about as well as the JK. Actually, I think the JK would ride even better because of it's longer wheel base and newer suspension design with longer control arms.

It won't be until you get to the very latest JGCs with the IFS that you'll get any measurable ride improvement.

Compared to a 4Runner? That'd be much tougher.

I'm positive the 4Runner will have a better ride. I'm sure it'll be more powerful, too. Not sure about the cost, though. If you go old enough, yeah, I can see it being much cheaper. FC would get pinched by two factors with the JK: 1) they're still pretty new and 2) Wranglers usually keep their value reasonably well.


In any event, FC has mentioned his desire for some kind of rough road vehicle with some towing / utility capability so he doesn't bash up the V70R on the rough(er) roads and snowy roads and such. Also a good inclement weather vehicle. There are other vehicles such as the higher riding Subarus (Forester?) that might be a good fit, maybe an Audi Allroad (though I'd not recommend it), or the lighter mini-utes like the Rav4 or something. Basically, something with a bit more ground clearance.

But if he's looking to haul stuff they may not cut it. As for that the JK Unlimiteds are, ahem, limited in their 3500 lb. tow rating. So that'd be about the same as some of the smaller mini-utes. The JGC knocks this up to a 5,000 lb. limit. And I'm not sure about the 4Runner or other vehicles.

In any event, the JKs fulfill many of his "uses" and he'd get his Jeep kick.



Maybe it's an east coast/NE vs. west mentality or something, but I don't see the idea of an SUV as a completely horrible concept. Even in suburbia. They have their place with their stronger frames, taller ground clearances (drive over snow, rather than through it?), and stronger payload / towing ratings that I could imagine would even be useful in his part of the country.





FC, have you also looked at a 4-door pick-up like the 4-door Toyota Tacomas or a 4-door Nissan Frontier? That'd give you seating for 4 or 5 but have a durable truncated pick-up bed for messier loads and such for any yard work. Not to mention a pretty good towing rating, probably around 5,000 lb. Your dog(s) could be in the back if you fit a canopy back there or maybe they could be up in the passenger cabin's backseat if there's room.




.

[FC]

Originally Posted by John V

I don't really see the point of owning ANY of those vehicles where you live. That being said...

The JGC and 4Runner have at least a modicum of civility on the road. They're not bad on the freeway, they're reasonably quiet, and they provide far more off-road capability you would ever need (which is to say, you need none and they both have some).

Maybe I'm reading your writeup incorrectly. Here's how I read what you wrote: it didn't have much room, it had miserable lights, miserable brakes, knobby tires that weren't well suited to on-road use, lots of body roll, wouldn't be comfortable or quiet on longer trips, was slow to accelerate... honestly, what's the point?

Well, I always thought my brother's Cherokee would be like that, and the lights, brakes, ride, speed all are worse than on the JK. Perhaps the JGC and 4Runner are better. I would hope they are. Neither of these SUV's is significantly larger than the JK. I would not be taking it on longer trips. None of the other faults are that much better (if at all) on the other SUV's mentioned.

Why the JK over these traditional tough SUV's? It's a family convertible, it looks cool, I've always wanted a wrangler, you can hose off the interior (which I can get muddy and go to great lengths now to avoid), and it is awesome off road well, because you never know.

Why a "tough" SUV as opposed to a highlander? Because if I'm going to have a spare car specifically for messy duties/crap weather, I want something that will never, EVER get stuck, that can have spare towing ability because "you never know," that has been designed to take some punishment in case I need to carry very heavy loads in the cargo area, etc.

You, Ed, equ, rwg et al can keep saying I live in New England and I don't need an SUV. I never once argued that. I've not had an SUV all these years. I could have bought one in '05, instead I bought the Saabaru. I could have bought one in late '06, instead I bought a super-sporty wagon. I've spoken with my wallet and backed up what I say. I don't like SUV's as everyday cars. I hope to continue to resist that if there is a sportswagon alternative. But if I can afford to own a cheaper SUV to be used specifically in a way that my other cars cannot, then I will. I've ranted and wished I had an SUV for certain tasks for years. I would like to allow myself that luxury now.

I've said this before, and I will say it again: An SUV is far more practical, usable, and necessary to me than a sportscar.

If cars are tools, then an SUV is a table saw, allen wrenches, telescopic mirror, and voltmeter to the hammer, drill, and screwdrivers that my V70R is. A sportscar is lucuma ice cream by comparison. Delicious indeed, but unnecessary.

[FC]

Originally Posted by lupinsea

FC, have you also looked at a 4-door pick-up like the 4-door Toyota Tacomas or a 4-door Nissan Frontier? That'd give you seating for 4 or 5 but have a durable truncated pick-up bed for messier loads and such for any yard work. Not to mention a pretty good towing rating, probably around 5,000 lb. Your dog(s) could be in the back if you fit a canopy back there or maybe they could be up in the passenger cabin's backseat if there's room.

I have to say, I never gave that a thought. But talk about absurd resale values on Tacomas - at least last time I checked.

I had always heard that wrangler had poor towing ratings due to the short wheelbases. Doesn't the JK ultd improve on that?

[John V]

It's not an East coast / west coast thing, I don't think. SUV's are everywhere here. I just hate driving them. Clyde's Armada is great for towing the race car to events and it is extremely handy to have for hauling loads of tires... but it's so incredibly clumsy I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to drive every day. If towing weren't a need and I just needed to get through snow, deal with potholes and make the occasional trip to the big box store I'd much rather have a wagon or (gasp) a CR-V type vehicle.

If I lived in a place where off-roading options were aplenty I would sure as hell be looking at an old Jeep to have around.

[lupinsea]

Originally Posted by FC

I have to say, I never gave that a thought. But talk about absurd resale values on Tacomas - at least last time I checked.

I had always heard that wrangler had poor towing ratings due to the short wheelbases. Doesn't the JK ultd improve on that?

Well, if the resale on the Tacomas have dropped (?) then it might be a good time to get into the market. And again, as a more utilitarian, not-used-as-offten vehicle I'd look for the oldest model year that had the 4-doors.

Ah. . 2002 4-Door Tacoma ~$12k.

• 3705 lb. curb weight (not too bad)
• 1400 lb. payload in bed
• 5000 lb. towing capacity
• 190 hp, 220 ft-lb. V6 (pretty close to the Wrangler, actually)
• 16 mpg combined

You know, most of this is pretty close to the JK except for the towing capacity. The top and doors don't come off. But you get a separate, exterior cargo bed and more towing capacity at about $5000 less than a used JK.





As for the Wrangler towing capacity. . . Yes, the Unlimiteds improve on the 2-door towing capacity. It goes from 2000 lb. to 3500 lb.

It has a lot to do with the wheel base, rear multi-link suspension, and stuff because the drivetrain on my 2000 lb. capacity Wrangler (for example) is nearly identicle to the cherokees of the same era and those had 5000 lb. towing capacities.

I think if the rear susupension on the Unlimiteds was replaced with leaf springs it'd increasing the towing capacity significantly. In fact, I think Jeep is making something like that for non-U.S., middle-east market Wranglers. . . bumps the towing capacity to ~7500 lb.

[lupinsea]

Originally Posted by John V

It's not an East coast / west coast thing, I don't think. SUV's are everywhere here. I just hate driving them. Clyde's Armada is great for towing the race car to events and it is extremely handy to have for hauling loads of tires... but it's so incredibly clumsy I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to drive every day. If towing weren't a need and I just needed to get through snow, deal with potholes and make the occasional trip to the big box store I'd much rather have a wagon or (gasp) a CR-V type vehicle.

If I lived in a place where off-roading options were aplenty I would sure as hell be looking at an old Jeep to have around.

Well ok.

To me it depends on the SUV. I've been in some that feel fine. Others like the Hyundai Tucson that feel like crap. As to their clumsiness. . . sure in comparison to sedans, sports cars, etc. But for what they are? Eh. I'm not bothered by it.

In a perfect world I'd have a sports/sporty car to drive regularly and a back up utility vehicle for camping, outdoor recreation, hauling duty, messy loads, big cargo area, etc. etc. etc. I don't expect my utility vehicle to be sporty at all. Heck, just look at their dimensions, high center of gravity, and spects.

I guess I don't get too excited about their relative crappy handling and such. They are what they are.

[SARAFIL]

Originally Posted by lupinsea

Well, if the resale on the Tacomas have dropped (?) then it might be a good time to get into the market. And again, as a more utilitarian, not-used-as-offten vehicle I'd look for the oldest model year that had the 4-doors.

Ah. . 2002 4-Door Tacoma ~$12k.

• 3705 lb. curb weight (not too bad)
• 1400 lb. payload in bed
• 5000 lb. towing capacity
• 190 hp, 220 ft-lb. V6 (pretty close to the Wrangler, actually)
• 16 mpg combined

I would highly recommend the Tacoma. Not sure what they are going for these days, but I know that they are very solid trucks, well put together, extremely reliable, they hod their value very well (meaning you can drive it for years and still get good money for it when you are ready to move on), and offer great utility. My father had a 2002 xtra cab for a while, and it was a very nice truck - it would be my number one pick if I had to buy a truck. The size is nice too... it's big enough, but not a huge full size truck if you just need it for small jobs.

[John V]

Originally Posted by lupinsea

I guess I don't get too excited about their relative crappy handling and such. They are what they are.

I'm not saying it should handle like a sports car. I'm saying that given the options that are out there for what FC plans to do with such a vehicle, it seems like a questionable choice. Why buy a rough and tumble off-road SUV when you don't need such a vehicle? It's just going to be frustrating in 95% of the situations you encounter day-to-day.

[FC]

Originally Posted by John V

I'm not saying it should handle like a sports car. I'm saying that given the options that are out there for what FC plans to do with such a vehicle, it seems like a questionable choice. Why buy a rough and tumble off-road SUV when you don't need such a vehicle? It's just going to be frustrating in 95% of the situations you encounter day-to-day.

Um, it won't be driven day to day. It will be driven when the V70R is not the best vehicle for the job. Yes, we're talking about only a couple to a few thousand miles a year at best.