RX-8 Test Drive

[lupinsea]

Hope this is being posted in the right forum . . . As many of you know after my fiance and I are married well be selling her Corolla and my Miata and getting a single car that will work for the both of use to cut our car payments down.

With her requirement of four door practicality and my manual transmission, sporty, rear wheel drive desires there wasn't much on the market in our price range. Initially I zeroed in on the BMW 330i (2002) and got a lot of helpful feed back from everyone here on Carmudgeons. Recently I put the RX-8 (2004) back on the list after previously rejecting it. For their respective years they're in the same price range. I have a local BMW fanatic that has offered to let me test drive his car lined up. Hopefully before too long our schedules will permit us to meet up (thanks for the referal Doug). But this last Sunday Stacey and I test drove an RX-8. I thought I'd share some thoughts and insights with you

RX-8
Good news: Stacey saw no "deal breakers" with the car and liked how the rear seat was split by the center tunel. She didn't seem too excited about the relatively small trunk so that seemed to be ok but found the e-brake lever placement very awkward (my thoughts, too), it just seemed out of place. While the RX-8 has a very stiff sports-car ride to it Stacey didn't think it too harsh. However, it's annoying to think the RX-8 will likely get only 5-6 mpg better milage than my Jeep. Very disappointing considering the Jeep has an engine almost 4 times the size of the RX-8 and has the aerodynamic efficiency of a brick wall.

Interior and Ergonomics:
Getting in the RX-8 was easy enough, much easier than the Miata, due to a higher roof line and higher seat position. The interior was obviously far more spacious and there was no sense of mild claustrophobia that can sometimes make itself known with the Miata. The seats were nicely bolstered, again, more supportive of the Miata, and the model we test drove had a power driver's seat. I even sat in the rear seat for a spell as Stacey drove the car. While compact there is a surprisingly usable rear seat in this car. And . . . it's actually kind of fun to be sitting back there. It felt like the back seat of a figher plane or space ship due in part to how the center console runs from the front dash clear to the rear seat back, bisecting the rear seat. Instead of a typical rear bench seat this makes two deep bucket seat. Just the ticket to spice things up for the rear passengers. However, there wasn't enough room to comfortably cross my legs in the back, my typical passenger seating position when my right foot has no pedal to play with. But it was fun enough and enough room for modest trips. Not that I expect I would be riding in the back that much.

The RX-8 has little triangular rotor themes throughout the entire car: in the head rests, on the hood, the rear tail pipe openings, the front air dam. While the rotory is a cool set up you get the sense that the designers went a little overboard reminding you that the engine is so different. Well, these triangular shapes extended to include the shift lever, too. Despite a this it felf ok in hand, though the Miata's simple rounded shape has a much more ergonomic feel. The shift action for the 6 spd manual transmission felt nice, smoother and less notchy than the Miata. The steering wheel felt really good in my hands, too. That was one of the little things I like about the Miata, the way the steering wheel feels like it's just begging you to wrap your fingers around it. It's good to see Mazda retained the ergonomics for the RX-8 steering wheel.

Fun Part, the Test Drive:
We went to University Mazda in Seattle where I bought my Miata 2 years ago. Eric, my salesman at the time, handed us the keys to the RX-8, asked us to keep it under 100 mph, told us to enjoy the car for an hour or so. On the test drive we left the dealership and headed north on the freeway past Northgate, then East and down along Sandpoint Way to the Arboretum and along the northern section of Lake Washington Blvd. While traffic wasn't super heavy it was mid-afternoon and the streets were busy. Not the best time for a test drive but it did afford a glimps of what the car is like.

The RX-8 felt quick and nimble. . . kinda like a Miata, only bigger. I figure this is a good thing. I had a chance to crack the throttle on some twisty roads that I'm very familar with when there was a break in traffic and . . . the car felt gooooood. The chassis was very well compose through the turns and felt solidly planted. No apparent flex or shaking compared to the Miata (my biggest annoyance with the car). The four wheel vented disc brakes very firmly and briskly slowed the car down yet were easy enough to modulate. This is good because of what the car can do to go fast.

Despite having only a ~2 second faster 0-60 acceleration than the Miata (5.9 sec vs. 8.1) the turns seem to come up much faster. And I think I was holding back on the throttle because I wasn't all that familiar with the RX-8 yet. It definitely keeps you on your toes and makes you realize how much more concentration you must have a with a faster car. However, I'm still luke warm on the engine. The rotory is exotic in the world of engines since there is nothing like it and there's something sexy about a 9,000 rpm redline, however, I do miss the punch of a piston engine. Maybe I need to drive the car again when Stacey is either all healed or not with me. I was holding back a bit because I didn't want to hurt her since she's still very sensitive from an operation 2 weeks ago and the car is capable of some very quick dynamic changes (left-right, accelerate or stop). Like the Miata engine, though, you rally need to rev the rotory to get any decent power out of it. Peak torque hits at 5500 rpm and there's a gentle though noticable surge when you hit this point. Fortunately, the engine pulls nicely all the way to redline in a very smoooooooth whine. No harsh vibrations at all. If it wasn't for the warning tone you'd have no idea the engine was approaching 9,000 rpm, it's that smooth.

I hope when I do get a chance to test drive a 330i I will either REALLY like it or REALLY hate it. It would make the decision process all that much easier. I test drove the RX-8 expecting that the packaging would be too cramped, that Stacey wouldn't like it, that I would find the engine performance and characteristics too annoying, that the back seats would be too tight or the trunk too small . . . that the car wouldn't be a good fit for us. But after looking at it and driving it, it could definitely work. Damn. Harder decision now.

BMW 330i vs. Mazda RX-8
After doing some thumbnail calculating I figure the ownership costs would just about be a wash between the RX-8 and 330i. The 330i would get better milage and over a typical 15,000 mile yearly tally that equates to a savings of over $500 (figuring 20 mpg for the RX-8 vs. 26 mpg for the 330i). However, I think the RX-8 would be a less costly car in terms of maintenance. There are no valves to adjust, no timing chains or timing belts. Every 30k just change the 4 spark plugs and replace the fluids . . . that's it. With the BMW the 30k servies (and 60k) seem much more involved and expensive. Not to mention any replacement parts would likely be more pricey for the BMW (pads and rotors in particular since both need to be changed about every 40 k by the sound of it). And I remain leary of the BMW's reliability for some reason. Maybe it's just horror stories and impressions of expensive-to-repair German performance cars? I would also like to take a closer look at the RX-8 consumables costs.

The 330i has been a fixation of mine for a couple months now as I've been researching the car. BMW has a solid heritage in the world of motorsports and seems to build good performance machines. However the RX-8 definitely seems to be a more driver and sports car focused automobile. While the BMW has a rear wheel drive / manual transmission layout the RX-8 does too, but takes everything to the next level. Compared to the BMW's macpherson strut suspension the 8 has a true sports car short / long arm aluminum double wish bone front suspension. This is completely tunable if more camber or caster is desired. . . something the BMW would require aftermarket parts for. Plus it keeps the tire better planted to the road surface for better grip in the turns. Both are rear wheel drive but the RX-8 comes with a torsen limited slip as standard equipment. You can't even option one of those on anything less than an M3.

The 8 weighs almost 300 lb. less than the BMW and that weight is better distributed throughout the chassis, too. Where as the BMW has the weight of a 3.0L I-6 engine smack in the middle over the front axle line, the light weight, tiny 1.3L rotory engine sits very low and completely behind the front axle line (when you pull the plastic engine cover in the RX-8 and look into the engine cavity your first thought is, "wow, I see an alternator but where's the engine?" It's that small.). And the rear mass, the fuel tank, is pulled in front of the rear axle line making for a very low polar moment of inertia which helps the car change direction quickly in turns. Combine the 8's weight and distribution with 238 hp (vs. 225hp 330i) and an engine that'll scream to 9000 rpm and you have one fun machine.

Then there's the other little details such as the carbon fiber driveshaft to reduce rotating weight. The massive vented brakes for excellent stopping, smooth 6 spd manual tranny . . . my head goes out to the sports car characteristics of the RX-8 (and my hear too) but my gut still draws me to the 330i (though I have yet to test drive it) because I think it would be an easier package overall to live with (easier access to the rear seats, better visibility, more accomodating trunk and better milage). Plus, despite higher maintenance costs I think the 330i would age better than the 8.

Hmph, tough decisions lay ahead.

nice writeup

[lemming]

you're doing yourself a huge disservice if you do not at least test drive a g35. even if you have no intention of driving it, just to see how nice it is to have an engine that can breathe but still have great torque characteristics matched with a chassis that is as good as the e46.

obviously you are avoiding FWDers and you don't need AWD. while the air is thin where you're shopping, you still have some options to consider that are fun.

[lupinsea]

Hm, G35?

I had never even considered that car before. The styling had not appealed to me so it just never crossed my mind to look beneath the sheet metal to see what the rest of the car is like. The spec's seem interesting and it can be had with a manual transmission. It's just . . . it seems so bland just looking at it in pictures.

Think you're right about test driving it, though. It would be a disservice not to see what it's like behind the wheel. I'll check out the G35 at some point, too.

[John V]

Originally Posted by lupinsea

Hm, G35?

I had never even considered that car before. The styling had not appealed to me so it just never crossed my mind to look beneath the sheet metal to see what the rest of the car is like. The spec's seem interesting and it can be had with a manual transmission. It's just . . . it seems so bland just looking at it in pictures.

Think you're right about test driving it, though. It would be a disservice not to see what it's like behind the wheel. I'll check out the G35 at some point, too.

The G35 is a great drive. I'd definitely drive one if you're considering an RX-8 or 3 series.

JV

[JST]

Originally Posted by lupinsea

Hm, G35?

I had never even considered that car before. The styling had not appealed to me so it just never crossed my mind to look beneath the sheet metal to see what the rest of the car is like. The spec's seem interesting and it can be had with a manual transmission. It's just . . . it seems so bland just looking at it in pictures.

Think you're right about test driving it, though. It would be a disservice not to see what it's like behind the wheel. I'll check out the G35 at some point, too.

If you are in the used market (which I think is true, no?) G35s with manual transmissions are going to be a bit difficult to find. They are pretty rare, at least compared to 330s.

The G35 is a great drive; it's got a very good chassis and the engine has impressive power and torque. The G35 is also bigger than a 330, and is really closer to the 5er in terms of space (esp. interior space). It drives like a smaller car than it is, though.

It has a nasty and unappealing interior, but dynamically the G35 is hard to fault as an all-arounder.

[lemming]

the only thing i disagree with is the part about motorsport heritage and direct transfer of racing technology being meaningless.

i think that it does matter and if you are paying extra money for a car, there should be something tangible that you can identify, as a car enthusiast, that justifies the cost, no budget or on a budget.

when the Blue Devil is unveiled at NAIAS this year, then we can revisit this aspect of the discussion as to why i would argue that car is superior to the Ford GT.

[equ]

Originally Posted by JST

If you are in the used market (which I think is true, no?) G35s with manual transmissions are going to be a bit difficult to find. They are pretty rare, at least compared to 330s.

The G35 is a great drive; it's got a very good chassis and the engine has impressive power and torque. The G35 is also bigger than a 330, and is really closer to the 5er in terms of space (esp. interior space). It drives like a smaller car than it is, though.

It has a nasty and unappealing interior, but dynamically the G35 is hard to fault as an all-arounder.

The interior and its lesser refinement (for lack of a better word) did it for me when I was comparing 330s and g35s. I didn't really have a budget limit so price didn't matter too much. Also see a thread on a bmw forum of someone who got a bad back from the g35. I was recently in an Infiniti dealer (waiting on my 330 at its service appointment) and noticed how terrible the seats were. Plus the g35c has no rear/trunk room compared to the e46 coupe.

[kognito]

Originally Posted by lemming

you're doing yourself a huge disservice if you do not at least test drive a g35. even if you have no intention of driving it, just to see how nice it is to have an engine that can breathe but still have great torque characteristics matched with a chassis that is as good as the e46.

obviously you are avoiding FWDers and you don't need AWD. while the air is thin where you're shopping, you still have some options to consider that are fun.

What he said. . .but did nissan get that whole front wheel alignment thing straightened out?? or did that just effect the 350Z and G35 coupe??

The dealers by me only stock AWD's we were very close to getting one when Audi made that great offer on 1.8T leftovers

[rumatt]

Originally Posted by lupinsea

I hope when I do get a chance to test drive a 330i I will either REALLY like it or REALLY hate it.

Prediction: you'll prefer the 8.

330 is more comfortable and makes a better family car, but with less feel and worse handling.

The 330 is a great car and I still love mine. But once you're as far down the path of sporty-car-handling insanity as you seem to be (as are many of the folks here) the 330 becomes easy to pick on. After driving an RX8, the 330 feels like a lexus.

I was ready to dump mine at one point, thinking I needed a sportier ride. Then I realized is that what I really need to be doing is learning how to drive (autox / track) and that the 330 is perfectly fine for that, while also being a comfortable daily driver. Now I really like the car again. Go figure.