carmudgeons.com  

Go Back   carmudgeons.com > Automotive Forums > Car Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-22-2018, 10:11 AM   #61
lemming
Eastern Promises
 
lemming's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: Blue Pig
Posts: 13,711
good choice, TD.
__________________


lemming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2018, 12:25 PM   #62
robg
Crotchety
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by clyde View Post
Will be interesting to see how it all develops. At some point, things should clarify. Until then, I'm constantly trying to build a metal crosswalk. In the end, owning a vehicle will require maintenance and repairs. The systems may change, the method of repair and replace may change, and costs and service times may change, but it's all the same. Just depends what pops out over there when you poke it here.
Yep. Regarding the battery pack, it stands to reason that in 8-10 years a new battery pack of the same capacity will be much cheaper. I suppose the uknown is whether Tesla would bother offering new/refurbished packs with the original capacity or if they'd sell you one with an upgraded capacity (and commensurate price). Then again, by that point, I wouldn't be surprised to see aftermarket companies stepping in with replacements (the car would be out of warranty anyway by that point). Of course, that leads to another unknown as to what post-warranty non-Tesla service looks like. Based on this article, it looks like Tesla is working on a program to support non-Tesla techs / DIYers but who knows:
https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/tesla...acement-parts/
robg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2018, 07:13 PM   #63
TD
The Waffle King
 
TD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 20,815
Okay, so I went and bought a Tesla

So...

Iíve now taken the car on a couple of road trips and Iím officially annoyed with the trip/supercharger planning built in to the NAV. It assumes you are going to drive like a grandmother.

I headed out this afternoon heading home to DC from Ithaca NY. I left with about a 90% charge, ~230 miles showing on the range.

It had me head in to Binghamton NY to hit the supercharger there. I was supposed to get 30 min of charge there and then go to Harrisburg PA for another 20 min charge. I was to get home with about 15% of battery.

I arrived at Binghamton with about 190 miles of range. After about 35 min, it throttled back my charging after telling me I had enough charge to resume my trip. I spent another 10 min adding more charge but at a significantly reduced charging rate. Finally I gave up and got on the road.

Within 10 min, it was advising me to keep it under 70 mph if I wanted to make it to my destination. It was showing Iíd be at 5% of battery at Harrisburg. Clearly it didnít factor in either my driving style or the fact that this portion of the trip was almost entirely in mountains.

Thatís too much anxiety for me so I turned off the routing and had Waze route me to the supercharger in Scranton. Iím here having dinner now and topping off. Iíll probably still need to add 10-15 min of charge in Harrisburg but I wonít be at risk of coming up short.

Still, I am pissed at the planning functionality. Know that I donít drive 65 and that this is a series of climbs, there was no way it was going to make the 197 miles from the Binghamton SC to the Harrisburg SC on a stated range of 220 mi (what I left Binghamton with). Now Iím stuck making three stops on a trip that would be 5:30 in an ICE vehicle.

Iím not annoyed with the overall Tesla road trip limitation, just with the trip planning. If it would have let me get a full charge in Binghamton, I would not have had to stop until Harrisburg. It should have been able to figure out that I needed it. And it should not throttle my charge rate if I decide I need more juice, especially with only 1 charger out of 8 occupied.

Matt and Josh, how do you guys deal with this? Iím thinking Iíll have to just do my own planning and not put my destination in the system. I have it charging now without a route loaded and itís not throttling it back - just charging away.

I hate it when things that try to be too smart end up being maddening as a result. Working around ďfeaturesĒ like this really negatively impact the experience.
__________________
"The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion." - Arthur C. Clarke


http://spreadingromney.com

Last edited by TD; 04-15-2018 at 07:31 PM.
TD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2018, 07:18 PM   #64
rumatt
Mugwump
 
rumatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: E46 330i, E91 325xi, Chevy Colorado, Cayman R
Location: NY
Posts: 16,120
Wow that sounds terrible.

They don't use crowd sourced data from other drivers to learn how much battery the various sections of road consume? Ie, learn where the hilly roads are.
rumatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2018, 09:44 PM   #65
JST
195
 
JST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,827
Quote:
Originally Posted by TD View Post
So...

Iíve now taken the car on a couple of road trips and Iím officially annoyed with the trip/supercharger planning built in to the NAV. It assumes you are going to drive like a grandmother.

I headed out this afternoon heading home to DC from Ithaca NY. I left with about a 90% charge, ~230 miles showing on the range.

It had me head in to Binghamton NY to hit the supercharger there. I was supposed to get 30 min of charge there and then go to Harrisburg PA for another 20 min charge. I was to get home with about 15% of battery.

I arrived at Binghamton with about 190 miles of range. After about 35 min, it throttled back my charging after telling me I had enough charge to resume my trip. I spent another 10 min adding more charge but at a significantly reduced charging rate. Finally I gave up and got on the road.

Within 10 min, it was advising me to keep it under 70 mph if I wanted to make it to my destination. It was showing Iíd be at 5% of battery at Harrisburg. Clearly it didnít factor in either my driving style or the fact that this portion of the trip was almost entirely in mountains.

Thatís too much anxiety for me so I turned off the routing and had Waze route me to the supercharger in Scranton. Iím here having dinner now and topping off. Iíll probably still need to add 10-15 min of charge in Harrisburg but I wonít be at risk of coming up short.

Still, I am pissed at the planning functionality. Know that I donít drive 65 and that this is a series of climbs, there was no way it was going to make the 197 miles from the Binghamton SC to the Harrisburg SC on a stated range of 220 mi (what I left Binghamton with). Now Iím stuck making three stops on a trip that would be 5:30 in an ICE vehicle.

Iím not annoyed with the overall Tesla road trip limitation, just with the trip planning. If it would have let me get a full charge in Binghamton, I would not have had to stop until Harrisburg. It should have been able to figure out that I needed it. And it should not throttle my charge rate if I decide I need more juice, especially with only 1 charger out of 8 occupied.

Matt and Josh, how do you guys deal with this? Iím thinking Iíll have to just do my own planning and not put my destination in the system. I have it charging now without a route loaded and itís not throttling it back - just charging away.

I hate it when things that try to be too smart end up being maddening as a result. Working around ďfeaturesĒ like this really negatively impact the experience.

TD--

Sorry, that sucks. The Tesla trip planning software is decent, but I've found that it works better if I do the planning on my own. It simply doesn't take into account as many variables as it should. As you probably know, "rated" range is calculated at about 300 kwH/mi, so if you're using more than that you need to adjust your range expectations accordingly. There are websites that help plan for stuff like this, if you want to geek out about it. For example: https://evtripplanner.com/


That said, I've never run into a situation where the Supercharger throttled my charge based on it thinking I had enough juice to reach my destination. I haven't kept up with the most recent software revisions, but I don't *think* it works that way. At least it didn't used to.

What does happen, and what you may have run into, is that Superchargers will throttle back as you get closer to the full capacity of the battery. So it will charge very quickly to 80 percent or so and then start slowing down. The final 5-10 percent of charge takes forever. If you arrived with 190 miles of range, you were already near 80 percent of battery capacity when you plugged in. It doesn't surprise me that after 30 min or so it throttled way back--it would have done that no matter what your destination was. That's just the physics of the battery.

Because of this, stopping three times can actually be faster than stopping twice. If you're charging a battery at a lower state of charge it will charge faster than one at a higher state of charge. The 10 to 15 min charge from 20 percent will add a lot more range than an additional 10 to 15 min from 80 percent.
JST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2018, 10:13 PM   #66
ZBB
Relic
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: A very fast golf cart
Location: The Valley of the Sun
Posts: 11,003
Sorry you aren’t having the best experience.

When using the in-car trip planner, I usually charge until I have a 20% buffer for the next leg — which is an extra ~40 rated miles above what the car thinks is needed to go. If I had a bigger battery, I’d use 15% instead.

But I highly recommend using evtripplanner.com for planning and rated mile estimates. I typically set it to a speed multiplie of 1.1 (ie 10% above the google-reported average traffic speed.) I then typically drive about 5 over the posted limit. I usually arrive at the next stop sighing 2-3 rated miles of the evtripplanner estimate.

Couple of things that you may not be aware of:
- sounds like you have the car set to display rated miles. That assumes you will get the EPA mileage, and does not take your driving style into account. Highway driving will always result in using more rated miles than actual — since the EPA cycle is a mix of highway and city, and the Tesla is more efficient below about 60.

- Supercharger throttling is a curve based on battery charge. You only get the fastest charge when the pack is low, and the charge rate will slow down noticibly when the battery is above 60% or so, and the last 10% isn’t much faster than charging at home. It does not throttle you just because you “have enough” per the on-board planner to get to the next stop.

- the fastest time to your destination may actually mean more Supercharger stops instead of skipping some. You should target arriving at a Supercharger with low battery (under 20%) and charging to roughly 30-40 rated miles past what you need to get to the next stop. Keeping the supercharges when your battery is lower will keep the stops shorter.

- wind can impact your energy use. Headwinds are like driving faster and tailwinds give extra range (google “Tesla winds and elevation” from the car’s browser and bookmark a handy tool to see the impact...).

Safe travels...
__________________
ZBB
ZBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2018, 05:42 AM   #67
John V
I only like old BMWs.
 
John V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Carmudgeonly Ride: 987S, Ram, MS3, 330Ci, CX-5, RX-8
Location: Glenwood, MD
Posts: 12,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by JST View Post
TD--

Sorry, that sucks. The Tesla trip planning software is decent, but I've found that it works better if I do the planning on my own. It simply doesn't take into account as many variables as it should. As you probably know, "rated" range is calculated at about 300 kwH/mi, so if you're using more than that you need to adjust your range expectations accordingly. There are websites that help plan for stuff like this, if you want to geek out about it. For example: https://evtripplanner.com/
I'm assuming you meant 300Wh/mi, not 300kWh/mi?
John V is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2018, 06:26 AM   #68
JST
195
 
JST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,827
Yeah, sorry!
JST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2018, 09:08 AM   #69
ff
.
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,729
Quote:
Originally Posted by TD View Post
it throttled back my charging after telling me I had enough charge to resume my trip. I spent another 10 min adding more charge but at a significantly reduced charging rate. Finally I gave up and got on the road.
That would drive me a little nuts. There are plenty of people that love having a circuit board do the thinking for them (maybe the same people that love automatic-transmission'ed Camrys), but I'm not one of them.

I suspect that the crippled charging feature is saving someone else a few pennies here and there. And/or maybe your batteries will survive more charging cycles, trickle charging whenever possible. And since you have enough, in the computer's eyes, to get where you're going...

That got me to thinking, what happens when you run out of battery out on the interstate? Get towed to the nearest charging station?
ff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2018, 09:24 AM   #70
FC
Solving problems
 
FC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: '15 eGolf, '13 LR4, '11 Miata
Location: Greater Boston
Posts: 20,517
I don't have a Tesla, but the eGolf has given me plenty of range anxiety even when I thought I had plenty of juice. It's a great city car but it blows on the highway and I cannot trust it on any trip remotely approaching its range. Weather and speed affect its range too much to count on it.
FC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Forums © 2003-2008, 'Mudgeon Enterprises - Site hosting by AYN & Associates, LLC