Is anyone else intrigued by the G6 GTP?

JST · 10-27-2005, 02:48 PM

Saw one of these in CA, and I was surprised by how clean the exterior design was, and how un-shitty the interior (particularly the seats) looked.

This may not be a GTP, but it is a far cry from typical GM interior design (which in my mind is permanently represented by the 1984 Pontiac 6000 STE).

The specs are certainly decent; 240 hp V6, good torque, 6 speed manual, 4 door. I know the reviews of the cooking variety G6 have been pretty lukewarm, but I have yet to see someone comment on the GTP. It's FWD, which means it isn't worth much as anything but a commuter, but it may be interesting enough to warrant a test drive.

bren · 10-27-2005, 03:15 PM

What's with the one little bit of wood trim around the shifter?

TD · 10-27-2005, 03:27 PM

As one might imply from my thread this afternoon, if I were going to go with a FWD commuter, it's going to be a TSX not some plastic Pontiac POS.

And if I could mentally get over the idea of driving a Pontiac, I'd just get a GTO.

I'm glad GM is improving their products. But this type of incremental improvement will not save them. They need something so good and different from the crap they've peddled in the past to make a clean break in eveyone's minds.

Hell, if Hyundai can do it, why can't GM?

*clyde* · 10-27-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TD

Hell, if Hyundai can do it, why can't GM?

Because Hyundai didn't have millions of life long loyal customers (and even if hyundai did have life long loyal customers, so what?..they were still in their 20s) that actually *gasp* liked their products. We can all bitch and moan about what crap thier products are all day, but it doesn't change the fact that the products are only crap when looked at through our very narrow and selective filters. We don't represent America at large (particularly ff and TD

). The financial problems that GM (as well as Ford and the American arm of DC) don't have the major direct connection to how their products do in the marketplace that most people assume when they don't even bother to scratch the surface, let alone actually look inside.

JST · 10-27-2005, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clyde

Because Hyundai didn't have millions of life long loyal customers (and even if hyundai did have life long loyal customers, so what?..they were still in their 20s) that actually *gasp* liked their products. We can all bitch and moan about what crap thier products are all day, but it doesn't change the fact that the products are only crap when looked at through our very narrow and selective filters. We don't represent America at large (particularly ff and TD

). The financial problems that GM (as well as Ford and the American arm of DC) don't have the major direct connection to how their products do in the marketplace that most people assume when they don't even bother to scratch the surface, let alone actually look inside.

You are right about the weak connection between the financial turmoil at the big two and their products, but I think you are being too easy on them in terms of product innovation. GM, Ford and Chrysler have done a pretty poor job of steadily moving the ball forward on product development, value and perceived product quality. I think that's changing; I think GM has some pretty impressive products, now and in the pipeline, and I think we are beginning to see that at Ford, too (the new Aviator is going to be a smash, the Fusion is getting rave reviews, etc).

While you are right, clyde, that there are a lot of loyal customers out there that don't perceive things the way that ff and TD do, there aren't enough of them. There are more customers out there that (accurately) perceive the Accord and Camry as better attempts to address the basic transportation question than anything that either Ford or GM has sold recently. Upsetting the applecart isn't necessary; we're not talking about building G35s instead of Impalas. We're talking about building Impalas that are as good (or better than) Accords, building CTSs that are better than G35s, and building G6s that are better than Jettas.

Why can't GM and Ford do that? Shamefully, I think they can. They just haven't.

TD · 10-27-2005, 04:18 PM

Hey!

Stop lumping me in with ff.

I would not buy a Pontiac. But that doesn't mean I think the CTS-V or Corvette are crap either.

Of the Big 3, it seems GM is most behind the curve in terms of offering world-class products. And I'm not really referring to "quality" (in terms of things breaking) but rather "perceived quality" (plastic-y with awful seats vs smooth moving switchgear and supportive seats) as well as overall appeal. Chrysler figured out how to make their line "bling". But GM (except for a few exceptions in their product lines) have vehicles that scream "Blindly Loyal and Ignorant Buy American-type". I mean, who would buy a base G6 over, say, an Accord?

ff · 10-27-2005, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TD

Hey!

Stop lumping me in with ff.

Yeah, me too. Hey wait...

I was actually going to post a new thread about the new lineup of Pontiacs. How they have really turned that division around with decent-looking styling, and not-so-cheasy fit and finish. Gone are the days of the Pontiac ribbed body cladding and P145 95R14 tires.

From a distance, the interior of that G6 looks rather nice. Dare I even say "sporty". I'm sure a closer inspection would reveal the same old cheap GM plastics, but at least it looks the part for once.

lupinsea · 10-27-2005, 05:06 PM

Not I. But then I find the Accord (and especially the Camary) to be very bland, too.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem "buying American" and a patriotic part of me would prefer to. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot the Big 2 1/2 make that I want. This due to reasons ranging the gamut from the fit and finish, to reliability, to the cars themselves.

For instance, the new Mustangs certainly seems to be a big improvement over the past model generation. Power is impressive in the V8 version for a car at that price point. Styling, while retro, is probably one of the better renditions out of Ford lately. But it's just not a car that grabs my interest. I don't get the retention of the solid rear axle. The car seems quite heavy. And I'm not convinced it will hold up well over time. The size of the car seems fairly large, too. For the same cost I'd rather go for a new MX-5, RX-8, or (gasp) even the Solstice.

Speaking of Solstice and Pontiac. . . they certainly seem to be moving in a better direction but they product offerings still seem to be so so. I was excited to see the Solstice come to fruition and hit the market if for no other reason than its seems to be an amazing offering from Pontiac. By the reports I've read GM hit it reasonably close on the head with their first attempt. All the good basics are there with AL double wishbone suspension at all four corners, rear wheel drive, close-ratio manual tranny, styling that I think is better than its competitor, surprisingly good handling considering it's a Pontiac, etc.

It's very frustrating to me to see our home-town car manufacturers producing such uninspiring cars. Certainly they have the resources to make some good competitors to the cars JST mentioned in his last post. Whey they don't I have no clue. . . I mean, as long as they're making the things, why not make them good. There are things such as the CTS-V or the Corvette that really do stand out, but why does that have to be the exception?

GM produces some cool concepts but then nothing happens with them. This is a case-in-point. Wish they brought this car to market:

400+ hp V8
RWD
Sexy looking design

Click to enlarge

lemming · 10-27-2005, 05:42 PM

it's refreshing how intelligent you guys can be sometimes.

so, putting aside the financial woes, which are mainly attributable to a legion of retired workers with super-high health care costs......

...the question boils down to: why cannot GM recapture market share? i get reminded constantly that back in the day Chevrolet dominated with some ridiculous market share percentage and what chevy did in terms of pricing was followed in lockstep by the others.

it's simple: it's the wrong business model. back then, there was no competition and now competition is fierce so they will never, ever achieve more than 30% market share ever again. morons if they think otherwise.

when i say wrong business model: i mean it. their business model is predicated on pure gross sales numbers and not per car and when it is per car, like the truck debacle, they get hosed because they're too shortsighted to innovate with more crossover vehicles.

their cars suffer from typical lowest cost bidder mentality, which worked for awhile, but clearly it does not work anymore. but also think about how difficult it is for them to change. i can already see the changes, but at the same time, i, like most of you, have also experienced the levels of fit and finish that BMW or lexus bring to their products and GM is still lagging behind them in fit and finish. at the same time, though, a lot of it IS perception. i've sat inside the new BMWs and i'm not blown away like i was when i first bought one. there are plenty of places where the interiors look very cheap and nasty, especially compared to the interiors of the e34 and e30. same for lexus. i've been inside a brand new rx330. it was well put together, but was i blown away by the quality of the materials? no. not at all. the perception gap is, as always, far larger than the real gap.

i personally wouldn't mind a g6 gtp 6speed for commuting. i can already tell you that in the most important commuting parameter: acceleration, it would be right there with a 330 so much so that it would annoy the 330 owner who has this grandiose vision of sitting in the ultimate driving machine but why can't i shake this GTP or accord v6 coupe off of my tail? torque reigns supreme for commuting and the GTP trumps most comers in that parameter.

JST · 10-27-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lupinsea

Not I. But then I find the Accord (and especially the Camary) to be very bland, too.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem "buying American" and a patriotic part of me would prefer to. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot the Big 2 1/2 make that I want. This due to reasons ranging the gamut from the fit and finish, to reliability, to the cars themselves.

For instance, the new Mustangs certainly seems to be a big improvement over the past model generation. Power is impressive in the V8 version for a car at that price point. Styling, while retro, is probably one of the better renditions out of Ford lately. But it's just not a car that grabs my interest. I don't get the retention of the solid rear axle. The car seems quite heavy. And I'm not convinced it will hold up well over time. The size of the car seems fairly large, too. For the same cost I'd rather go for a new MX-5, RX-8, or (gasp) even the Solstice.

Speaking of Solstice and Pontiac. . . they certainly seem to be moving in a better direction but they product offerings still seem to be so so. I was excited to see the Solstice come to fruition and hit the market if for no other reason than its seems to be an amazing offering from Pontiac. By the reports I've read GM hit it reasonably close on the head with their first attempt. All the good basics are there with AL double wishbone suspension at all four corners, rear wheel drive, close-ratio manual tranny, styling that I think is better than its competitor, surprisingly good handling considering it's a Pontiac, etc.

It's very frustrating to me to see our home-town car manufacturers producing such uninspiring cars. Certainly they have the resources to make some good competitors to the cars JST mentioned in his last post. Whey they don't I have no clue. . . I mean, as long as they're making the things, why not make them good. There are things such as the CTS-V or the Corvette that really do stand out, but why does that have to be the exception?

GM produces some cool concepts but then nothing happens with them. This is a case-in-point. Wish they brought this car to market:

400+ hp V8
RWD
Sexy looking design

Click to enlarge

Mustangs are fricking bulletproof. Reliability would not be a concern of mine...and even if something breaks, it will cost nearly nothing to fix.

Your other points are valid--the Mustang is a big coupe, and it drives like one.

On the G6, never mind. I found a couple of articles that indicate the GTP and the GT share the same suspension, and that the GT's suspension is none too good.

10-27-2005, 02:48 PM	#1
JST 195 Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 24,609	Is anyone else intrigued by the G6 GTP? Saw one of these in CA, and I was surprised by how clean the exterior design was, and how un-shitty the interior (particularly the seats) looked. This may not be a GTP, but it is a far cry from typical GM interior design (which in my mind is permanently represented by the 1984 Pontiac 6000 STE). The specs are certainly decent; 240 hp V6, good torque, 6 speed manual, 4 door. I know the reviews of the cooking variety G6 have been pretty lukewarm, but I have yet to see someone comment on the GTP. It's FWD, which means it isn't worth much as anything but a commuter, but it may be interesting enough to warrant a test drive.

10-27-2005, 05:06 PM	#8
lupinsea Jeeped Join Date: Sep 2005 Carmudgeonly Ride: Modified Jeep Tj and '07 Miata Location: Seattle Posts: 10,214	Not I. But then I find the Accord (and especially the Camary) to be very bland, too. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem "buying American" and a patriotic part of me would prefer to. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot the Big 2 1/2 make that I want. This due to reasons ranging the gamut from the fit and finish, to reliability, to the cars themselves. For instance, the new Mustangs certainly seems to be a big improvement over the past model generation. Power is impressive in the V8 version for a car at that price point. Styling, while retro, is probably one of the better renditions out of Ford lately. But it's just not a car that grabs my interest. I don't get the retention of the solid rear axle. The car seems quite heavy. And I'm not convinced it will hold up well over time. The size of the car seems fairly large, too. For the same cost I'd rather go for a new MX-5, RX-8, or (gasp) even the Solstice. Speaking of Solstice and Pontiac. . . they certainly seem to be moving in a better direction but they product offerings still seem to be so so. I was excited to see the Solstice come to fruition and hit the market if for no other reason than its seems to be an amazing offering from Pontiac. By the reports I've read GM hit it reasonably close on the head with their first attempt. All the good basics are there with AL double wishbone suspension at all four corners, rear wheel drive, close-ratio manual tranny, styling that I think is better than its competitor, surprisingly good handling considering it's a Pontiac, etc. It's very frustrating to me to see our home-town car manufacturers producing such uninspiring cars. Certainly they have the resources to make some good competitors to the cars JST mentioned in his last post. Whey they don't I have no clue. . . I mean, as long as they're making the things, why not make them good. There are things such as the CTS-V or the Corvette that really do stand out, but why does that have to be the exception? GM produces some cool concepts but then nothing happens with them. This is a case-in-point. Wish they brought this car to market: 400+ hp V8 RWD Sexy looking design Click to enlarge Last edited by lupinsea; 10-27-2005 at 05:23 PM.

10-27-2005, 05:42 PM	#9
lemming Western Anomaly Join Date: Oct 2003 Carmudgeonly Ride: White Orca Posts: 16,607	it's refreshing how intelligent you guys can be sometimes. so, putting aside the financial woes, which are mainly attributable to a legion of retired workers with super-high health care costs...... ...the question boils down to: why cannot GM recapture market share? i get reminded constantly that back in the day Chevrolet dominated with some ridiculous market share percentage and what chevy did in terms of pricing was followed in lockstep by the others. it's simple: it's the wrong business model. back then, there was no competition and now competition is fierce so they will never, ever achieve more than 30% market share ever again. morons if they think otherwise. when i say wrong business model: i mean it. their business model is predicated on pure gross sales numbers and not per car and when it is per car, like the truck debacle, they get hosed because they're too shortsighted to innovate with more crossover vehicles. their cars suffer from typical lowest cost bidder mentality, which worked for awhile, but clearly it does not work anymore. but also think about how difficult it is for them to change. i can already see the changes, but at the same time, i, like most of you, have also experienced the levels of fit and finish that BMW or lexus bring to their products and GM is still lagging behind them in fit and finish. at the same time, though, a lot of it IS perception. i've sat inside the new BMWs and i'm not blown away like i was when i first bought one. there are plenty of places where the interiors look very cheap and nasty, especially compared to the interiors of the e34 and e30. same for lexus. i've been inside a brand new rx330. it was well put together, but was i blown away by the quality of the materials? no. not at all. the perception gap is, as always, far larger than the real gap. i personally wouldn't mind a g6 gtp 6speed for commuting. i can already tell you that in the most important commuting parameter: acceleration, it would be right there with a 330 so much so that it would annoy the 330 owner who has this grandiose vision of sitting in the ultimate driving machine but why can't i shake this GTP or accord v6 coupe off of my tail? torque reigns supreme for commuting and the GTP trumps most comers in that parameter. __________________

10-27-2005, 03:15 PM	#2
bren lawn boy Join Date: Oct 2003 Carmudgeonly Ride: e46m3, f25x3,C5 Z06, C4 Vette, 06 CTD Ram, and a trailer Location: Maryland Posts: 14,029	What's with the one little bit of wood trim around the shifter?

10-27-2005, 03:27 PM	#3
TD Founder emeritus Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 21,007	As one might imply from my thread this afternoon, if I were going to go with a FWD commuter, it's going to be a TSX not some plastic Pontiac POS. And if I could mentally get over the idea of driving a Pontiac, I'd just get a GTO. I'm glad GM is improving their products. But this type of incremental improvement will not save them. They need something so good and different from the crap they've peddled in the past to make a clean break in eveyone's minds. Hell, if Hyundai can do it, why can't GM?

10-27-2005, 04:18 PM	#6
TD Founder emeritus Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 21,007	Hey! Stop lumping me in with ff. I would not buy a Pontiac. But that doesn't mean I think the CTS-V or Corvette are crap either. Of the Big 3, it seems GM is most behind the curve in terms of offering world-class products. And I'm not really referring to "quality" (in terms of things breaking) but rather "perceived quality" (plastic-y with awful seats vs smooth moving switchgear and supportive seats) as well as overall appeal. Chrysler figured out how to make their line "bling". But GM (except for a few exceptions in their product lines) have vehicles that scream "Blindly Loyal and Ignorant Buy American-type". I mean, who would buy a base G6 over, say, an Accord?