Tesla Model ≡ Thread

[JST]

Originally Posted by clyde

I have tons of skepticism about that comparison even if I can't be certain until I live with one for a while.

A well-damped, taut chassis is something you can feel and appreciate with every motion of the car no matter what its non-zero speed or proximity to the edge of its envelope. The behavior and feel at its limits are something separate. It's what you feel when you're taking a casual stroll with the car, not what it's like to try dancing with it.

The first time I really understood this was on an off-ramp at an anonymous and totally unremarkable speed the first night I had the RX-8. The tiniest changes in throttle input had a most predictable and natural effect on the car's arc. This was not in a high-strung, nervous, or twitchy kind of way, but rather in a this-is-how-it's-supposed-to-work way. It was not something that any "normal" driver would have noticed, but very much present and someone attuned to vehicle dynamics couldn't miss.

Perhaps you have not met my commute. There is one (1) off-ramp involved and it is usually bumper to bumper.

Still, yes, I'll concede that the Porsche feels nicer than the Tesla even in (most) low speed driving. My point is that if you think that you have to run from 0-60 in 3 seconds or whatever to note and take advantage of the Tesla's unique power delivery, that's just not right. It makes itself known and appreciated constantly in urban driving.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by JST

Perhaps you have not met my commute. There is one (1) off-ramp involved and it is usually bumper to bumper.

Still, yes, I'll concede that the Porsche feels nicer than the Tesla even in (most) low speed driving. My point is that if you think that you have to run from 0-60 in 3 seconds or whatever to note and take advantage of the Tesla's unique power delivery, that's just not right. It makes itself known and appreciated constantly in urban driving.

As I said, I can't be certain without living with it for a while. In lieu of that, I try to picture scenarios where having instant torque available with a dip of the right foot would be more helpful than thinking "oh well" with either a clutch or torque converter to get through first. I see those as frequently occurring in urban driving, but also quite fleeting and even when not, happening in a singular dimension.

I am not convinced of my mental projections because I understand there is potentially quite a bit going on that I don't have the right experience base to draw conclusions.

What I am pretty sure of is that if something like my Camaro or a Cayman or an E30 M3 or a or a or a... had a Tesla propulsion system, it would be a most fantastic car combining close to most of the best possible car-feels into a single package. I expect that to happen someday, but it doesn't sound like we're there yet.

Everything I've read, watched, or heard suggests to me that the Taycan is the closest to that yet and why it's something that is happening in the back of my head for what to do after the Camaro.

Meanwhile, everything I've read, watched, or heard suggests to me that at their best, Teslas are kinda nice cars (if you can overlook shitty build quality and tolerances) that truly excel in the single dimension of acceleration and that leaves me cold because in my weighting acceleration is more of a pass/fail where failure isn't necessarily a show stopper and anything exceeding pass is not valued.

Again, you've lived with both and I haven't. I am cognizant of this.

edit- and if I was buying a car for your commute, I'd be looking at "a nice place to spend time sitting" as 90% of the criteria, and it's hard to imagine actually using anything more interesting than an Accord. Because, why?

[JST]

Originally Posted by clyde

As I said, I can't be certain without living with it for a while. In lieu of that, I try to picture scenarios where having instant torque available with a dip of the right foot would be more helpful than thinking "oh well" with either a clutch or torque converter to get through first. I see those as frequently occurring in urban driving, but also quite fleeting and even when not, happening in a singular dimension.

I am not convinced of my mental projections because I understand there is potentially quite a bit going on that I don't have the right experience base to draw conclusions.

What I am pretty sure of is that if something like my Camaro or a Cayman or an E30 M3 or a or a or a... had a Tesla propulsion system, it would be a most fantastic car combining close to most of the best possible car-feels into a single package. I expect that to happen someday, but it doesn't sound like we're there yet.

Everything I've read, watched, or heard suggests to me that the Taycan is the closest to that yet and why it's something that is happening in the back of my head for what to do after the Camaro.

Meanwhile, everything I've read, watched, or heard suggests to me that at their best, Teslas are kinda nice cars (if you can overlook shitty build quality and tolerances) that truly excel in the single dimension of acceleration and that leaves me cold because in my weighting acceleration is more of a pass/fail where failure isn't necessarily a show stopper and anything exceeding pass is not valued.

Again, you've lived with both and I haven't. I am cognizant of this.

edit- and if I was buying a car for your commute, I'd be looking at "a nice place to spend time sitting" as 90% of the criteria, and it's hard to imagine actually using anything more interesting than an Accord. Because, why?

I think I noted in a quick review of the Taycan that it left me pretty cold. It's...nice? But it's tuned to resemble driving a Panamera, and it doesn't feel particularly special from an EV standpoint. Plus it's big and heavy.

The criticisms you make of Teslas are certainly true of Models S (and X). They are much less true of Models 3. The suspension and feel in the 3 is far from perfect, but it's also pretty good -- not just for an EV, but for an anything. I can't speak to how it might feel when autocrossing or something, but for around town it has decent feel, reasonably good suspension tuning, and is overall an insane value for 60 grand--I honestly prefer driving it to driving the Taycan, and it costs literally half as much as the 4S or whatever the midline trim is.

EDIT:

Here's a useful rack-up of the current EV state of the art.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ar-contenders/

The Model 3 is 1100 lbs lighter than the Taycan, and it feels every bit of that.

[John V]

Originally Posted by clyde

What I am pretty sure of is that if something like my Camaro or a Cayman or an E30 M3 or a or a or a... had a Tesla propulsion system, it would be a most fantastic car combining close to most of the best possible car-feels into a single package. I expect that to happen someday, but it doesn't sound like we're there yet.

Yes! Somehow I've not been able to put this into words, but this is it for me.

This really is what I'm waiting for. A Tesla without having to buy and own and deal with a Tesla.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by robg

Taking it off the table, I'll either end up most likely getting something like an Audi S5 SB or spending a lot more and getting some form of Taycan.

There is something about the A5/ S5 sportback I just love, to me it is one of the best looking sedans around, it has this stance that whenever I see one I notice …

As far as the Taycan, I am surprised lately I have been seeing quite a few of them around … it is a pretty cool car but I never sat in one so I am curious if it is tight inside like the Panamera.

[JST]

Yes, it’s a lot like a Panamera inside. Maybe slightly tighter, though the glass roof makes it feel bigger.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by JST

I think I noted in a quick review of the Taycan that it left me pretty cold. It's...nice? But it's tuned to resemble driving a Panamera, and it doesn't feel particularly special from an EV standpoint. Plus it's big and heavy.

The criticisms you make of Teslas are certainly true of Models S (and X). They are much less true of Models 3. The suspension and feel in the 3 is far from perfect, but it's also pretty good -- not just for an EV, but for an anything. I can't speak to how it might feel when autocrossing or something, but for around town it has decent feel, reasonably good suspension tuning, and is overall an insane value for 60 grand--I honestly prefer driving it to driving the Taycan, and it costs literally half as much as the 4S or whatever the midline trim is.

EDIT:

Here's a useful rack-up of the current EV state of the art.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ar-contenders/

The Model 3 is 1100 lbs lighter than the Taycan, and it feels every bit of that.

It's funny. The Panamera holds some appeal to me, so poo-pooing the Taycan for being too Panamera-like may not be helping your case as much as intended.

Also, is there a reason a car should "feel particularly special from an EV standpoint"?

Then, you point me to that C&D article (which I'm guessing is also in the paper issue that arrived yesterday, but I probably won't open for six months because I'm that far behind) which I skimmed through most of, but read the 3 and Taycan sections and the descriptions for both reinforced my existing preconceived notions: 3 is numbers, clinical, and cold while the Taycan has all the best parts of a well executed performance car that is powered by electricity rather than gasoline.

I also found the C&D piece disappointing that so much of the very short blurbs on each car were dedicated to batteries, range, and charging times. These things matter and are big consideration points if thinking about purchasing one, but I think we're past the point (including full size "reviews" and not just these quick hit blurb things) that so much focus is placed on what should just be data points in the data sheets at the expense of talking about how they drive, feel, how they compare with each other, and what they do differently than each other/what they bring to the table that that others don't.

[JST]

Yes, if you want an electric Panamera, you should buy the Taycan.

I personally never had any interest in the Panamera, so it doesn’t hold much appeal for me. But if that’s what floats your boat, knock yourself out. IDGAS.

I’m just saying the Tesla is better. And it’s better partly because of all the ways in which it is different.

You don’t like Tesla so you are primed to think that argument is bullshit. That’s fine. I also DGAS whether you buy a Tesla.

[robg]

To me sitting in the taycan elicits more of the Porsche sports car feel than the panamera due to the lower seating position and the view over the bulging front fenders. In person, the car is so drop dead gorgeous (To my eyes) that I almost don’t care how it drives. The ride/handling balance feels as close to the mythical “magic carpet ride” as I’ve experienced since driving a mcclaren many years ago. I don’t recall feeling that driving a panamera but it’s been a while. If I am going to get something that big and heavy it’s got to have a hatchback IMO - so it’s be cross turismo for me probably

I do think the model 3 is a more rational choice but I can’t seem to get excited about it (and the thought of giving any money to Elon musk becomes less appealing by the day) I don’t think a direct competitor to it has emerged yet since most long range EVs are crossovers. Will be interesting to see what Audi does with the next gen a4/a5 on the PPE platform


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[John V]

I mean part of it is not wanting to give Elon Musk any money. But mostly it's the way Tesla continues to make idiotic choices with their interior and interfaces. I realize that Elon's eventual goal is to completely eliminate the driver, but that's orthogonal to my thinking about cars.