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Old 10-02-2018, 03:25 PM   #2201
JST
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Originally Posted by clyde View Post
If the context of the argument is that, eventually, plug in EVs will be the norm.

Short term, proprietary charging networks are a needless barrier to entry and a consumer resistance point. The idea that this will not be standardized some day is nearly unthinkable.

It always seems like there's an assumption that everyone will charge their cars at home every night, so charging stations will only be an occasional need, like on road trips. That works for people with dedicated or exclusive parking areas that can be equipped to charge. And that probably covers over 95% of current plug in EV owner use cases. But you all are in a bubble.

Where do people that do not have exclusive parking areas fit in? When, where and how do they charge? Those charging stations are going to be their primary method. They're not going to be willing to drive to the other side of town to spend an hour charging up. They're going to want/demand a charging station on every other corner where they can plug in for a few minutes to give them enough juice to run a few errands, make a commute cycle or two, and then do it again.

Electricity is a commodity as much as gas or salt. Getting the electricity from the generation facility into the car's battery is the same trick no matter what the manufacturer. Is it a good idea for industry to reinvent a massive infrastructure wheel 30 times over (or however many manufacturers there are) at billions or more each time around? Are consumers going to willingly pay for that?

Fortunately, we don't have to worry about Porsche charging more for Porsche Brand electricity than Chevy charges for their electricity because if history has taught us one lesson over and over again, it's that businesses always operates in the consumer's best interest and never tries to force consumers to pay inflated prices when they are locked in without choices.

So, free market, laissez faire, woo hoo, whatever. I don't think you make it to the tipping point without standards. It's better for the industry, it's better for consumers, it's probably better for governments.
Well, part of what's going on here is that the lack of standard (generally) applies to Level 3, DC fast charging--not Level 1 or Level 2 charging. DC fast charging is both a lot of more expensive and a lot more cumbersome than "normal" chargers, but it's also only really for trips--there's no need to plug your car into a fast charger if you're at work all day, or in a parking garage all night.

So I don't think the problem is as big as you think. But what would be the alternative? A government mandate that requires standard outlets? How do you deal with the 80,000 cars that Tesla just sold last quarter that comply with Tesla's standard? How do you incentivize other companies to build their own charging networks, if building the network doesn't help them sell cars? Are you literally going to prohibit Porsche from building an 800V fast charging network because they think it gives them a competitive advantage?
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Old 10-02-2018, 04:11 PM   #2202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JST View Post
Well, part of what's going on here is that the lack of standard (generally) applies to Level 3, DC fast charging--not Level 1 or Level 2 charging. DC fast charging is both a lot of more expensive and a lot more cumbersome than "normal" chargers, but it's also only really for trips--there's no need to plug your car into a fast charger if you're at work all day, or in a parking garage all night.

So I don't think the problem is as big as you think.
If you didn't have ready access to fast charging at your house and/or your work garage, would you still think it's not an issue worth considering?

But what would be the alternative? A government mandate that requires standard outlets? How do you deal with the 80,000 cars that Tesla just sold last quarter that comply with Tesla's standard? How do you incentivize other companies to build their own charging networks, if building the network doesn't help them sell cars? Are you literally going to prohibit Porsche from building an 800V fast charging network because they think it gives them a competitive advantage?[/quote]

US car sales have averaged something around 15 million units/year for the past 20 years, I think. Maybe 180 million of those are still seeing some kind of regular use? If the early adopters get screwed or have to buy another adopter, it's unfortunate, but, meh. Compromising the future benefit of millions in order to protect the infinitesimally small number of existing product purchases owned almost exclusively by those that will adapt just fine—maybe with an internet gripe or two—seems quite short sighted.

Also, from what you describe, it sounds like all the manufacturers would benefit by having someone else build out the charging network who can exclusively focus on that task. Why would I want to incentivize them to build proprietary networks?

What exactly is wrong with a standard connection/charging method? Doesn't necessarily have to government mandated.
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Old 10-02-2018, 07:09 PM   #2203
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I think you may be misunderstanding terminology—“fast charging,” or Level 3 direct current charging, is (still) relatively uncommon, apart from the Tesla supercharger network.

I don’t have access to DC fast charging at home or work. Few people do. But that’s ok, because you don’t need it in those places.

What you need in those places is Level 2 charging—240V AC, typically 30-60 amps. That’s what all EVs now can use, and it’s (relatively) cheap and easy to install.

Would it be great if someone would build out a universal fast charger network? Sure. There’s a zero percent chance of that happening under the current administration. In the absence of political will for incentivizing third party “green” infrastructure, we have to hope that car companies are willing to build their own. Tesla showed the way to do it. I hope other companies follow suit.
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Old 10-02-2018, 11:39 PM   #2204
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Originally Posted by JST View Post
I think you may be misunderstanding terminology—“fast charging,” or Level 3 direct current charging, is (still) relatively uncommon, apart from the Tesla supercharger network.

I don’t have access to DC fast charging at home or work. Few people do. But that’s ok, because you don’t need it in those places.

What you need in those places is Level 2 charging—240V AC, typically 30-60 amps. That’s what all EVs now can use, and it’s (relatively) cheap and easy to install.

Would it be great if someone would build out a universal fast charger network? Sure. There’s a zero percent chance of that happening under the current administration. In the absence of political will for incentivizing third party “green” infrastructure, we have to hope that car companies are willing to build their own. Tesla showed the way to do it. I hope other companies follow suit.
I guess I misspoke with the term "fast charging", but I don't think you're hearing at least part of what I'm saying, either.

The Level 2 charging isn't realistically possible for many people. At home, they have to park some distance away in parking lots and on the street in different spots every night. At work, they park in lots and on the street some distance away. The only place they can regularly charge is at a purpose built charging station. If they can't get something close to a full charge in a short period of time, a plug in EV will not work for them. If they have to drive half way across town to their manufacturer specific charging station every time, that isn't going to work either.

I'm not talking about people stretching to make ends meet. My brother lives in a half million dollar 1 bedroom condo two blocks from the beach. The parking lot at his complex is filled with late model luxury and sports cars. Not a single plug in EV that I've seen because there's no place any of the residents can charge them. Apparently, the topic has come up, and some on their board think they should start planning for an assessment to put in the infrastructure. But no one has any idea how they should do it in a way that won't require them making expensive modifications later when some kind of standard is adopted.

No doubt the current administration and Congress aren't going to do anything to help, but there's no reason a manufacturer association can't set standards and a third party or consortium can't start building that out. It seems like that would be the cheapest, easiest, fastest, and ultimately, most profitable way to proceed. That that's not what's happening suggests to me there's a lot more to the economics of it than I'm aware of.

Tesla proved the concept works. But, they still haven't done scale, just like with their cars. Everyone wins medium and long term if there is more cooperation than competition here. Everyone loses on a longer term basis in comparison the other way.
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Old 10-03-2018, 09:12 AM   #2205
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Clyde makes a really good point, I had no idea each EV out there had its own type of charger needed. I would have thought if I purchased a Chevy bolt I could still use a Tesla charging station

Or another example, let’s say you had the i8 and now want to get the new NSX then if i’m understanding this correctly the in house charger you spent a lot of dolllars on has to be changed, is this right ?

If so I do get JST’s point where for example Porsche thinks if it puts in the infrastructure to support their vehicles it might be a selling point but if the world is going to go electric it should be able to charge any type of ev car.
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:16 AM   #2206
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Thankfully, Porsche is using the SAE standard for its fast charging stations though only the Taycan will be able to charge at the max 350 kW charge rate. Anyway it’s a step in the right direction - we’ll see how things play out in the next few years.

I wonder when/if Tesla will sell an adapter to allow cars with a CCS type plug to charge at super chargers. Seems like it could be a good revenue source atkeast for the next few years.


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Old 10-03-2018, 10:39 AM   #2207
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It surprises me that Tesla doesn't license their tech to other companies such that the owners of those other companies' vehicles can use Tesla's infrastructure. It would be a good source of revenue, I'd think, for a company in need of cash. I understand that Tesla wants people to buy *their* cars, but when your cheapest model is north of $50k...
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:46 AM   #2208
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Interestingly, all their patents are open so no one is blocking anyone from using their tech.

https://www.tesla.com/BLOG/ALL-OUR-P...ARE-BELONG-YOU
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:38 AM   #2209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumatt View Post
Interestingly, all their patents are open so no one is blocking anyone from using their tech.

https://www.tesla.com/BLOG/ALL-OUR-P...ARE-BELONG-YOU
great title
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:30 PM   #2210
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AF--

The vast majority of electric cars--in fact, I'm going to say all electric cars, including Teslas--can use SAE J1772 standard charging equipment. If you install one of these in your house, you won't need to change it when you get a new car.

Teslas have a proprietary charge port that doesn't look like a J1772 plug, though they come with an adapter that makes the car work with J1772 charging equipment.* The Tesla plug is, in a lot of ways, better technically than the SAE standard one, in part because it's physically smaller and in part because you can use it for both AC and DC fast charging.**

DC fast charging is different. There are 3 standards for that, as I noted above. Generally, Japanese cars use CHAdeMO, American and German cars use SAE Combo, and Tesla uses Tesla. Tesla has made a CHAdeMO adapter so their cars can plug into those chargers, and word is that the Tesla standard is similar enough to SAE Combo that an adapter wouldn't be hard, but AFAIK there isn't one yet.

There is no adapter that goes the other way, i.e. letting you plug a non-Tesla into a Supercharger. Tesla has had discussions about licensing with other manufacturers, and has generally opened its patents on this stuff, but the company has been more focused on building out its network so it can sell its cars than licensing the tech.

It's all fairly complicated, but part of what's going on is that legacy manufacturers have, until recently, not been at all serious about selling EVs. As a result, they haven't really cared about building out DC fast charging infrastructure. That's part of the reasons why the incentives just aren't there to make them sit down and hammer out a deal.


*To give you a sense of the head start Tesla has here, they were developing the plug for the White Star (what became the Model S) before the J1772 standard was finalized, so this isn't *just* about them being bloody minded and trying to do a proprietary plug.


**Because Tesla has a proprietary plug, the wall-mounted charging equipment that Tesla sells for AC charging is not compatible with other EVs. If you buy a Tesla wall-mounted charging cable, you will have to get a different one if you got a different EV.
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