Tesla Model S waffling

[robg]

Originally Posted by ZBB

Just one comment on price... When you factor in fuel cost, the federal tax credit, and AZ's reduced registration cost, the Tesla really competes with cars that are ~25k less. In my case, I managed to keep the loan payment within $1 of what I paid for the Boxster, and I'm spending $150-$200 a month less in fuel cost...



That's the one thing I'm not looking forward to at TMC Connect (the Tesla version of BMWCCA's Octoberfest) next month...

I compared lease to lease: a nicely equipped BMW 535 with an MSRP in the low 60s would've cost me around $500, and a base S60 with tech pkg would've been around 1-1.1k. Even with $200 in fuel savings that's still $300-$400 off. Plus, there's the expensive Tesla maintenance pkg you need to buy on top of that to stay within the terms of the lease i believe. Only way it works out financially is if Tesla resale values maintain their current levels.

NY reg fees are low, so maybe thats part of it.

Also, getting a charger installed in my buildings' garage would've ranged from impossible to huge PITA.

[JST]

Originally Posted by bren

I still don't get it.

If you were looking at two houses, and one was LEED and one wasn't, you shouldn't chose the former just because it might cost more? The amount of dollars spent doesn't change the impact on the environment.



I have a friend who is waiting on a Model S and only has a passing interest in "cars". He's doing it because he believes in the tech and "eco" stuff.

The Tesla crowd consists of auto enthusiasts, eco geeks, techno weenies, and cool hunters all in about equal proportion.

Robg has a point--I wouldn't be driving the Tesla if it weren't for how much fun it is. At the same time, the Panamera is equally impressive, performance-wise, and costs about the same, and I have no desire at all to own one of those. So, I think there's more than rationalization there. The Tesla really does do things that the Porsche doesn't, and those things are meaningful in terms of deciding whether to splash out a huge chunk of cash on a car.

[robg]

Originally Posted by JST

The Tesla crowd consists of auto enthusiasts, eco geeks, techno weenies, and cool hunters all in about equal proportion.

Robg has a point--I wouldn't be driving the Tesla if it weren't for how much fun it is. At the same time, the Panamera is equally impressive, performance-wise, and costs about the same, and I have no desire at all to own one of those. So, I think there's more than rationalization there. The Tesla really does do things that the Porsche doesn't, and those things are meaningful in terms of deciding whether to splash out a huge chunk of cash on a car.

Yeah- but the Tesla is way better looking than the Panamera. I don't know about you, but if I don't like the way a car looks, I could care less about how well it performs. Actually, the Tesla is the best looking 4 door you can buy at any price. Even when taking sports cars into account, only an Aston Martin DB9 looks better IMO. That is a huge selling point.

[lemming]

Originally Posted by bren

I still don't get it.

If you were looking at two houses, and one was LEED and one wasn't, you shouldn't chose the former just because it might cost more? The amount of dollars spent doesn't change the impact on the environment.



I have a friend who is waiting on a Model S and only has a passing interest in "cars". He's doing it because he believes in the tech and "eco" stuff.

Bren: my point is like when we are justifying minimal savings in order to spend a significant amount of money. "i'd like a $4000 outdoor grill, because we will do takeout less"; "i'd like a $10,000 john deere lawn tractor because it's more fuel efficient than the Husqvarna".

it's logic with roots in syllogism.

you buy a Tesla because it's cool. it has a unique driving experience and it offers something different. for some people, that car will be a 6 series gran coupe. some people it will be a panamera. but for others, it will be a Tesla.

my point is, don't hide because a weak economic argument in order to try to sell the car --it detracts from one's credibility as an intelligent person who can engage in adult point/counterpoint. saving $3000 a year in fuel is not enough to justify $985 to $1385 a month for a car lease payment.

it's cool. stop there. that's enough of a point.

[bren]

Originally Posted by lemming

my point is, don't hide because a weak economic argument in order to try to sell the car --it detracts from one's credibility as an intelligent person who can engage in adult point/counterpoint. saving $3000 a year in fuel is not enough to justify $985 to $1385 a month for a car lease payment.

it's cool. stop there. that's enough of a point.

I agree that being "eco" is no reason to over-extend yourself - it's one of the reasons I'm not driving one. But if you have the means....

To your example - maybe spending an extra hundred bucks a month is worth not burning fossil fuels to someone (which seems to be the case for many.) That's your decision to make as the consumer.

[JST]

Originally Posted by lemming

Bren: my point is like when we are justifying minimal savings in order to spend a significant amount of money. "i'd like a $4000 outdoor grill, because we will do takeout less"; "i'd like a $10,000 john deere lawn tractor because it's more fuel efficient than the Husqvarna".

it's logic with roots in syllogism.

you buy a Tesla because it's cool. it has a unique driving experience and it offers something different. for some people, that car will be a 6 series gran coupe. some people it will be a panamera. but for others, it will be a Tesla.

my point is, don't hide because a weak economic argument in order to try to sell the car --it detracts from one's credibility as an intelligent person who can engage in adult point/counterpoint. saving $3000 a year in fuel is not enough to justify $985 to $1385 a month for a car lease payment.

it's cool. stop there. that's enough of a point.

Lemming, the point isn't that a Tesla will save you money versus buying a Volt or even a Mustang. It won't. No amount of gas savings will make up the difference.

The only point is that when you are thinking about how much a Tesla costs, you should keep in mind fuel savings. Depending on how much you drive and what other cars you are considering, that can be meaningful.

[lemming]

Originally Posted by JST

Lemming, the point isn't that a Tesla will save you money versus buying a Volt or even a Mustang. It won't. No amount of gas savings will make up the difference.



The only point is that when you are thinking about how much a Tesla costs, you should keep in mind fuel savings. Depending on how much you drive and what other cars you are considering, that can be meaningful.

This clarity of point is often lost when a Tesla owner is in the messiah-induced daze.

And I would agree with this --there is a semantic difference.

[John V]

Originally Posted by JST

At the same time, the Panamera is equally impressive, performance-wise, and costs about the same, and I have no desire at all to own one of those. So, I think there's more than rationalization there. The Tesla really does do things that the Porsche doesn't, and those things are meaningful in terms of deciding whether to splash out a huge chunk of cash on a car.

This is actually a really good point (the bolded part). Now, I've never driven either of them, but if I had to drive a big, heavy four door that had sporting intentions, the Tesla is a lot more appealing. The fact that the Tesla is cheaper when you look at the estimated total ownership cost makes it a slam dunk.

[lemming]

Originally Posted by John V

This is actually a really good point (the bolded part). Now, I've never driven either of them, but if I had to drive a big, heavy four door that had sporting intentions, the Tesla is a lot more appealing. The fact that the Tesla is cheaper when you look at the estimated total ownership cost makes it a slam dunk.

there are a lot of Panameras on my commute and most are Turbo or Turbo S models --which retail for significantly greater than 150,000USD. I do not think this car has the same demographic as that of the Tesla --and one should not fault a person for choosing a Panamera. they're using subjective criteria which are not unlike those that Tesla owners, when honest, are using.

which is my central thesis. choosing a Tesla is subjective. if you go by sheer objective criteria, it's not a well crafted argument that holds water.

so, let's leave it in the realm of subjectivity and stop trying to make it objective.

[bren]

Buying a Panamera over a Tesla is just dumb.