Interesting Article - Automaker Proving Grounds

ZBB · 10-18-2005, 04:38 PM

Interesting article on the history of proving grounds:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enth...215.A9465.html

Interestingly, it mentions most of the ones out here in AZ, but doesn't mention the GM proving ground in Mesa. GM decided a few years ago to shut it down and sell it, but announced about a year ago it would stay open. You can see it sometimes when flying in/out of Phoenix -- if taking off to the East, you will see it a few minutes after takeoff off to the right of the plane. The facility is huge -- and the main track is what really sticks out: Its a round track (probably high-speed banked), but the diameter of the circle is about 1.5 miles. Here's a shot via google maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=mesa,+...6728&t=h&hl=en

lupinsea · 10-18-2005, 06:50 PM

Damn, that's an impressive track. I wasn't expecting a perfectly round circle . . . and the shear size of it, too.

Zoomin on the google map link, pretty cool. I wonder about some of the other tracks or courses on there, such as the long parallel straight with the loops at the end?

lupinsea · 10-18-2005, 07:02 PM

Ok, I think I'm officially a dork because I read the whole article and thought it was really cool.

ZBB · 10-18-2005, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lupinsea

Ok, I think I'm officially a dork because I read the whole article and thought it was really cool.

Well... I'm up there with ya... I decided to take a few minutes to see if I could find any of the other AZ proving grounds locations.

I think this is Toyota's:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=85361&...1533&t=h&hl=en

I remember reading about it when it opened -- and this one is in the general area that article described. You'll notice there is a long runway to the NW of the test center -- the article I read back then (early 90s?) mentioned that Toyota flys in cars on a cargo 747 directly to the track...

Edit -- that's actually DaimlerChrysler's (originally Chrysler's). They just sold the land for $400 million a few weeks ago and are leasing the land back until 2007...

I'll see if I can find Toyota's...

Edit 2 -- The first link is Toyota's... Here's DaimlerChrysler's (just a few miles north of Toyota's):
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.87...2967&t=h&hl=en

ZBB · 10-18-2005, 07:15 PM

Here's VW's - it came up with a yellow pages search!
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=17169+...&iwloc=A&hl=en

Here's Ford's - this one is very remote and also has its own airport:
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.87...2967&t=h&hl=en

Here's Nissan's - close to VW...
http://perljam.net/google-satellite-...roving_Grounds

lupinsea · 10-19-2005, 01:11 AM

I find it intersting that so many automakers have set up test tracks or proving grounds in the US. I suppose they have others in different parts of the world but I think it's something of a testament to the variety of different environments found in this country. We have quite a diverse range of climatic and geological regions . . everything from the hot deserts of AZ to steep, frigid, tall mountains, to the very cold northern climates.

Unless I'm missing my guess I'm not sure there are other many countries that have all these different conditions combined within one nation.

Any thoughts on why even foreign automakers are setting up their own test grounds here (as opposed to other countries, not necessarily their home nations)? Is it just the variety of environmental factors here?

And why are so many located in AZ? Is there a combination or convergence of factors that makes that the ideal state for proving grounds. After all, it can't be the only hot state. . .

ZBB · 10-19-2005, 02:20 AM

Remember -- the US is also the world's largest car market, so having a testing center (or 2) in the US makes sense.

As for AZ -- The Big 3 set up theirs here in the 50s. Back then, this place wasn't very populated, so it was easier to do testing on not released product, even in the open. Even when Toyota added theirs in the early 90s, it was at least 10 miles from the nearest development (and that was the Sun City retirement community). Now all except Ford are being encroached on (and DC sold their land to a company that is planning a housing development).

AZ also has a pretty wide range of climates -- you can be on the desert floor outside Phoenix at ~1100 ft above sea level and 110+ in June, and within 2 hours be at 12,000 feet and 75 degrees (and close to freezing at night). About 40 miles from the DC and Toyota sites, there is a section of highway 89 that goes from 2000 ft to 5500 feet in a little over 6 miles (essentially up an almost sheer cliff). The road is quite a blast to drive -- curvy, and fairly limited traffic. That climb used to be the standard test of a cooling system on a hot summer day -- if a car could make the top of the 'Yarnell Grade' without overheating, it could cool in almost anything.

John V · 10-19-2005, 07:05 AM

The Article mentions the American Motors proving grounds in Burlington, WI. Milwaukee region SCCA used to use this location pretty regularly for autocrosses. There is a very large (1000' x 500') parking lot with no light poles on the facility, connecting to their high-speed test tracks. When American motors shut down Chrysler sold the facility to MGA (a crash research company) who still uses it today. I think Milwaukee region still uses it a couple times a year but their Miller Park lot is as big and is just outside Milwaukee. Here's a link. It's half new satellite imagery and half old but you get the idea.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=burlin...9046&t=k&hl=en

*clyde* · 10-19-2005, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lupinsea

Unless I'm missing my guess I'm not sure there are other many countries that have all these different conditions combined within one nation.

Any thoughts on why even foreign automakers are setting up their own test grounds here (as opposed to other countries, not necessarily their home nations)? Is it just the variety of environmental factors here?

Re: The US having a multitiude of enviornments in which to test... top 10 countries by land mass:

1 Russia 17,075,200 km2
2 Canada 9,984,670 km2
3 United States 9,631,418 km2
4 China 9,596,960 km2
5 Brazil 8,511,965 km2
6 Australia 7,686,850 km2
7 India 3,287,590 km2
8 Argentina 2,766,890 km2
9 Kazakhstan 2,717,300 km2
10 Sudan 2,505,810 km2

Add to that what others have said about us being the largest market. Most major auto manufacturers from abroad now have design and manufacturing facilities here as well. The US also has about the best developed road network in the world, with quality ranging from very, very poor to absolutely excellent.

lupinsea · 10-19-2005, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clyde

Re: The US having a multitiude of enviornments in which to test... top 10 countries by land mass:

1 Russia 17,075,200 km2
2 Canada 9,984,670 km2
3 United States 9,631,418 km2
4 China 9,596,960 km2
5 Brazil 8,511,965 km2
6 Australia 7,686,850 km2
7 India 3,287,590 km2
8 Argentina 2,766,890 km2
9 Kazakhstan 2,717,300 km2
10 Sudan 2,505,810 km2

Add to that what others have said about us being the largest market. Most major auto manufacturers from abroad now have design and manufacturing facilities here as well. The US also has about the best developed road network in the world, with quality ranging from very, very poor to absolutely excellent.

I admit I'm woefully ignorant of the specific climactic and environmental conditions in most of the countries in the above list but the mostly seem relatively homogenous with the exception of the U.S.

Russia has some really cold climate but not the blasting hot temps of a hot desert environment.

Canada seems like it would have a large part of the country with a colder climate, too, with some moutainous terrain, but not "that" much variety in terms of temps and weather.

From what little I've read about the Chinese interior I think that country has a pretty wide range and variety of terrain, weather, and climates. . . . but perhaps not the best developed road system not to mention a business climate that I'm not too sure of. Seems relatively stable now but who knows.

And the others. . . don't they have more homogenous climates through each of their countries? Thought I heard somewhere that the US is one of the most climatic and geologically diverse countries on earth. I'm not saying we have unique conditions in this country, just that there are a lot of different conditions in a single country.

But I see that you and ZBB bring up some other factors as well such as our range of infrastructure quality and market importance.

10-18-2005, 04:38 PM	#1
ZBB Relic Join Date: Oct 2003 Carmudgeonly Ride: A very fast golf cart Location: The Valley of the Sun Posts: 12,821	Interesting Article - Automaker Proving Grounds Interesting article on the history of proving grounds: http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enth...215.A9465.html Interestingly, it mentions most of the ones out here in AZ, but doesn't mention the GM proving ground in Mesa. GM decided a few years ago to shut it down and sell it, but announced about a year ago it would stay open. You can see it sometimes when flying in/out of Phoenix -- if taking off to the East, you will see it a few minutes after takeoff off to the right of the plane. The facility is huge -- and the main track is what really sticks out: Its a round track (probably high-speed banked), but the diameter of the circle is about 1.5 miles. Here's a shot via google maps: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=mesa,+...6728&t=h&hl=en __________________ ZBB

10-18-2005, 07:15 PM	#5
ZBB Relic Join Date: Oct 2003 Carmudgeonly Ride: A very fast golf cart Location: The Valley of the Sun Posts: 12,821	Here's VW's - it came up with a yellow pages search! http://maps.google.com/maps?q=17169+...&iwloc=A&hl=en Here's Ford's - this one is very remote and also has its own airport: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.87...2967&t=h&hl=en Here's Nissan's - close to VW... http://perljam.net/google-satellite-...roving_Grounds __________________ ZBB Last edited by ZBB; 10-18-2005 at 07:44 PM.

10-19-2005, 02:20 AM	#7
ZBB Relic Join Date: Oct 2003 Carmudgeonly Ride: A very fast golf cart Location: The Valley of the Sun Posts: 12,821	Remember -- the US is also the world's largest car market, so having a testing center (or 2) in the US makes sense. As for AZ -- The Big 3 set up theirs here in the 50s. Back then, this place wasn't very populated, so it was easier to do testing on not released product, even in the open. Even when Toyota added theirs in the early 90s, it was at least 10 miles from the nearest development (and that was the Sun City retirement community). Now all except Ford are being encroached on (and DC sold their land to a company that is planning a housing development). AZ also has a pretty wide range of climates -- you can be on the desert floor outside Phoenix at ~1100 ft above sea level and 110+ in June, and within 2 hours be at 12,000 feet and 75 degrees (and close to freezing at night). About 40 miles from the DC and Toyota sites, there is a section of highway 89 that goes from 2000 ft to 5500 feet in a little over 6 miles (essentially up an almost sheer cliff). The road is quite a blast to drive -- curvy, and fairly limited traffic. That climb used to be the standard test of a cooling system on a hot summer day -- if a car could make the top of the 'Yarnell Grade' without overheating, it could cool in almost anything. __________________ ZBB

10-18-2005, 06:50 PM	#2
lupinsea Jeeped Join Date: Sep 2005 Carmudgeonly Ride: Modified Jeep Tj and '07 Miata Location: Seattle Posts: 10,214	Damn, that's an impressive track. I wasn't expecting a perfectly round circle . . . and the shear size of it, too. Zoomin on the google map link, pretty cool. I wonder about some of the other tracks or courses on there, such as the long parallel straight with the loops at the end?

10-18-2005, 07:02 PM	#3
lupinsea Jeeped Join Date: Sep 2005 Carmudgeonly Ride: Modified Jeep Tj and '07 Miata Location: Seattle Posts: 10,214	Ok, I think I'm officially a dork because I read the whole article and thought it was really cool.

10-19-2005, 01:11 AM	#6
lupinsea Jeeped Join Date: Sep 2005 Carmudgeonly Ride: Modified Jeep Tj and '07 Miata Location: Seattle Posts: 10,214	I find it intersting that so many automakers have set up test tracks or proving grounds in the US. I suppose they have others in different parts of the world but I think it's something of a testament to the variety of different environments found in this country. We have quite a diverse range of climatic and geological regions . . everything from the hot deserts of AZ to steep, frigid, tall mountains, to the very cold northern climates. Unless I'm missing my guess I'm not sure there are other many countries that have all these different conditions combined within one nation. Any thoughts on why even foreign automakers are setting up their own test grounds here (as opposed to other countries, not necessarily their home nations)? Is it just the variety of environmental factors here? And why are so many located in AZ? Is there a combination or convergence of factors that makes that the ideal state for proving grounds. After all, it can't be the only hot state. . .

10-19-2005, 07:05 AM	#8
John V No more BMWs Join Date: Apr 2005 Carmudgeonly Ride: Ram, MS3, CX-5, RX-8 Location: Glenwood, MD Posts: 14,753	The Article mentions the American Motors proving grounds in Burlington, WI. Milwaukee region SCCA used to use this location pretty regularly for autocrosses. There is a very large (1000' x 500') parking lot with no light poles on the facility, connecting to their high-speed test tracks. When American motors shut down Chrysler sold the facility to MGA (a crash research company) who still uses it today. I think Milwaukee region still uses it a couple times a year but their Miller Park lot is as big and is just outside Milwaukee. Here's a link. It's half new satellite imagery and half old but you get the idea. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=burlin...9046&t=k&hl=en