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Old 11-25-2020, 06:55 AM   #361
equ
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Originally Posted by Josh (PA) View Post
I promise this will be the last time I post this advice, but.....

Get a beater for this vehicle. Something cheap to buy, cheap to insure and not nice so when your son inevitably dings it up, you won't be heartbroken. You're going to drive it maybe 20 times in the next year. 90% of those drives are going to be in bad weather, or to pick up some bulky (ie: interior tearing) item for your soon to be new house or with a couple of dirty kids and a dirty dog or teaching your son to drive. None of those activities benefit from a nice car or purtend to a fun driving experience. All of them have a high degree of risk that either the outside is going to get scratched or the inside is going to get mudded / torn up.
When you're not doing one of the above activities, you and your son will be happy in the front seat of the 2er. The 10% of the time you're doing a family road trip you'll still get more joy from practicality then you will from performance.

Spend $15k- $20k on a 2 gen old base x5, or an a4 wagon, or a w212 wagon, or a CX-7 or a mazda 6 wagon. Get a roof box, a hitch, a set of rubber mats and a set of weather aggressive all season tires and never worry about it again.
I completely disagree.

Worry about the teen (if he even wants to drive) when that time comes. He should be all about bicycles and iphones. Right now, she needs transportation. For most people, who don't want to chase little niggles and don't have time to 'sort' a used vehicle, it means a new, peppy, just right sized car/cuv. A $15-20k w212 or x5 is rolling the dice. It means spending time finding german repair shops as dealers will be too costly for the things large and small that need doing. Other than being faded luxury, those are not better than having a new cx5 in the garage that you do not have to worry about.

A cheap new car is a much better 'beater' (as in worry free) than a used luxo one. Unless you get a hook up from a good seller, like all those nice cars wdc herself sold and even those will be time & money-costly to keep driving as a daily.
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Old 11-25-2020, 07:47 AM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh (PA) View Post
I promise this will be the last time I post this advice, but.....

Get a beater for this vehicle. Something cheap to buy, cheap to insure and not nice so when your son inevitably dings it up, you won't be heartbroken. You're going to drive it maybe 20 times in the next year. 90% of those drives are going to be in bad weather, or to pick up some bulky (ie: interior tearing) item for your soon to be new house or with a couple of dirty kids and a dirty dog or teaching your son to drive. None of those activities benefit from a nice car or purtend to a fun driving experience. All of them have a high degree of risk that either the outside is going to get scratched or the inside is going to get mudded / torn up.
When you're not doing one of the above activities, you and your son will be happy in the front seat of the 2er. The 10% of the time you're doing a family road trip you'll still get more joy from practicality then you will from performance.

Spend $15k- $20k on a 2 gen old base x5, or an a4 wagon, or a w212 wagon, or a CX-7 or a mazda 6 wagon. Get a roof box, a hitch, a set of rubber mats and a set of weather aggressive all season tires and never worry about it again.
Hell of an idea of how much one should spend on a "beater."

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Originally Posted by equ View Post
I completely disagree.

Worry about the teen (if he even wants to drive) when that time comes. He should be all about bicycles and iphones. Right now, she needs transportation. For most people, who don't want to chase little niggles and don't have time to 'sort' a used vehicle, it means a new, peppy, just right sized car/cuv. A $15-20k w212 or x5 is rolling the dice. It means spending time finding german repair shops as dealers will be too costly for the things large and small that need doing. Other than being faded luxury, those are not better than having a new cx5 in the garage that you do not have to worry about.

A cheap new car is a much better 'beater' (as in worry free) than a used luxo one. Unless you get a hook up from a good seller, like all those nice cars wdc herself sold and even those will be time & money-costly to keep driving as a daily.
And a hell of an idea of what "beater" means in the context of cars.

At first, I was in total agreement with Josh on the idea of a "beater," but for slightly more expansive reasons (and a lot less weight placed on some of the ones Josh lists). After skimming the thread again, I'm not sure.

I'm unclear on how critical the need for a car is. The impression I've wound up with is that she wants a car to fit a certain role much more than she actually needs an additional car.

Whether she needs on or not, she looks to have dug herself into some real clyde-level analysis paralysis on the choice at first glance, but upon review, it seems much more clear that there's even more clyde-like self-sabotage going on. WDC wants a new BMW SUV, but doesn't want to spend what it will cost today, so keeps looking at other things and kind of trying to talk herself into them even thought they're not really what she wants. The only two things that fix that are 1) spend the money or 2) let it go and move on. (and yes, that's advice for myself, too)

I could be way wrong about all of that. Most of all, if there's an actual need for an additional vehicle "now," a beater could be the best idea. But a real beater. This is why:

A real beater is an appliance that serves the practical need when you need it while not needing care about appearance, broken/torn/worn things that don't prevent safe and reliable operation (even then, allow some wiggle room), and the driving experience is a byproduct...all at a cost that if it dies and leaves you stranded somewhere in the first year, you'll literally walk away from it with no hard feelings as you start looking for the next one.

Anything resembling "new" is not a beater. Low five figures is not a beater.
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Old 11-25-2020, 07:54 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by clyde View Post
Whether she needs on or not, she looks to have dug herself into some real clyde-level analysis paralysis on the choice at first glance, but upon review, it seems much more clear that there's even more clyde-like self-sabotage going on. WDC wants a new BMW SUV, but doesn't want to spend what it will cost today, so keeps looking at other things and kind of trying to talk herself into them even thought they're not really what she wants. The only two things that fix that are 1) spend the money or 2) let it go and move on. (and yes, that's advice for myself, too)

I could be way wrong about all of that. Most of all, if there's an actual need for an additional vehicle "now," a beater could be the best idea. But a real beater. This is why:

A real beater is an appliance that serves the practical need when you need it while not needing care about appearance, broken/torn/worn things that don't prevent safe and reliable operation (even then, allow some wiggle room), and the driving experience is a byproduct...all at a cost that if it dies and leaves you stranded somewhere in the first year, you'll literally walk away from it with no hard feelings as you start looking for the next one.

Anything resembling "new" is not a beater. Low five figures is not a beater.
This. And, I am not interested in being stranded in an old car on a highway with my two dogs and kid. I have never been interested in that. And, have to admit, it happened in our E70 X5 before it was very elderly or high mileage.

My other issues with the new BMW is i have a very young, green, annoying salesman I also appear stuck with at the biggest dealership here. Takes forever to get information/quotes, then it’s incomplete or riddled with errors. So, I’m frustrated on that score, too. I probably would have ordered some time ago had I been able to get a straight answer from him.

I suspect the only beater I may buy (or co-buy) will be for my son in a few years.

I liked the Mazda; didn’t love it. And that may be OK for now. The price is right.

I still need to drive the Audi wagon, which would be cheaper than a discounted 6-cylinder X3 and potentially easier to live with in hauling dogs around—my prime, recurrent need right now. But there’s an inventory problem on that score. The 2020s are gone (except for some stray A6 wagons) and the 2021s have not come in in any quantity. One comes in; and gets bought. Then it starts all over again.
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Old 11-25-2020, 08:13 AM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clyde View Post
Hell of an idea of how much one should spend on a "beater."



And a hell of an idea of what "beater" means in the context of cars.

At first, I was in total agreement with Josh on the idea of a "beater," but for slightly more expansive reasons (and a lot less weight placed on some of the ones Josh lists). After skimming the thread again, I'm not sure.

I'm unclear on how critical the need for a car is. The impression I've wound up with is that she wants a car to fit a certain role much more than she actually needs an additional car.

Whether she needs on or not, she looks to have dug herself into some real clyde-level analysis paralysis on the choice at first glance, but upon review, it seems much more clear that there's even more clyde-like self-sabotage going on. WDC wants a new BMW SUV, but doesn't want to spend what it will cost today, so keeps looking at other things and kind of trying to talk herself into them even thought they're not really what she wants. The only two things that fix that are 1) spend the money or 2) let it go and move on. (and yes, that's advice for myself, too)

I could be way wrong about all of that. Most of all, if there's an actual need for an additional vehicle "now," a beater could be the best idea. But a real beater. This is why:

A real beater is an appliance that serves the practical need when you need it while not needing care about appearance, broken/torn/worn things that don't prevent safe and reliable operation (even then, allow some wiggle room), and the driving experience is a byproduct...all at a cost that if it dies and leaves you stranded somewhere in the first year, you'll literally walk away from it with no hard feelings as you start looking for the next one.

Anything resembling "new" is not a beater. Low five figures is not a beater.
This well said and in line w/ my thinking. And for the record, our beater is a 2003 325Xit worth maybe $1500. My daughter is driving it to Maine today to have thanksgiving w. her boyfriend. It does an excellent job at being the beater you described.

@WDC
I know I'm the poster child for being stranded, but I'll warn you that new doesn't equate to reliable... espcecially in BMWs. My 1er left me on the side of the road at 21,000 miles when it was two years old with a failed water pump. Actually my 911 did the same at 3 yrs old and 11,000 miles. My older cars (the e46 and e70) have been the most reliable cars I've had in recent memory. Just get the Mazda and put the $20k savings to some cool furniture for the new house.
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Old 11-25-2020, 08:26 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Josh (PA) View Post
This well said and in line w/ my thinking. And for the record, our beater is a 2003 325Xit worth maybe $1500. My daughter is driving it to Maine today to have thanksgiving w. her boyfriend. It does an excellent job at being the beater you described.

@WDC
I know I'm the poster child for being stranded, but I'll warn you that new doesn't equate to reliable... espcecially in BMWs. My 1er left me on the side of the road at 21,000 miles when it was two years old with a failed water pump. Actually my 911 did the same at 3 yrs old and 11,000 miles. My older cars (the e46 and e70) have been the most reliable cars I've had in recent memory. Just get the Mazda and put the $20k savings to some cool furniture for the new house.
The Mazda is the easy no brainer for sure. And LOL, the one thing I don’t need is cool furniture! (But, I do need a cool house.)

Thank you for all your thoughtful advice. I do look forward to some cool beater with a stick for my kid. That will be another fun car chase.
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Old 11-25-2020, 09:14 AM   #366
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This. And, I am not interested in being stranded in an old car on a highway with my two dogs and kid. I have never been interested in that. And, have to admit, it happened in our E70 X5 before it was very elderly or high mileage.
The getting stranded thing happens to new and old cars alike, but the reasons are usually different. With new cars, it's much more likely to be from something sudden that you have no warning on. For old cars, it usually comes from something that you knew about (or should have known about) before it gave up and left you stranded.

Old cars have gone through their teething problems and by the time they get "old," there's a pretty good book on them about how long their component parts last. Buying an older, high-mileage car with service records from someone that you believe has kind of taken care of it and hopefully a PPI from a trusted mechanic should be of limited risk...especially if you're willing to spend a couple more dollars to address any system that's close to or past its expected lifespan in the absence of any evidence it's already been addressed.

New cars just go belly up because something wasn't done quite right at assembly, a bad batch of sensors or other parts (and this has been a bigger deal industry-wide for post-COVID shutdown builds than those built before, but seemed to be improving as of October)...

On a long, cross country trip, I might be a little more confident in the new car, but I wouldn't avoid a well maintained old car. Regular use in a metro area with occasional trips into the country where cell service might have some gaps? I'd probably be more concerned about being left stranded in the new car.
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Old 11-25-2020, 09:52 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by clyde View Post
The getting stranded thing happens to new and old cars alike, but the reasons are usually different. With new cars, it's much more likely to be from something sudden that you have no warning on. For old cars, it usually comes from something that you knew about (or should have known about) before it gave up and left you stranded.

Old cars have gone through their teething problems and by the time they get "old," there's a pretty good book on them about how long their component parts last. Buying an older, high-mileage car with service records from someone that you believe has kind of taken care of it and hopefully a PPI from a trusted mechanic should be of limited risk...especially if you're willing to spend a couple more dollars to address any system that's close to or past its expected lifespan in the absence of any evidence it's already been addressed.

New cars just go belly up because something wasn't done quite right at assembly, a bad batch of sensors or other parts (and this has been a bigger deal industry-wide for post-COVID shutdown builds than those built before, but seemed to be improving as of October)...

On a long, cross country trip, I might be a little more confident in the new car, but I wouldn't avoid a well maintained old car. Regular use in a metro area with occasional trips into the country where cell service might have some gaps? I'd probably be more concerned about being left stranded in the new car.
Valid points for sure. One of the current difficulties now, as Sarafil mentioned, is the delta between decent used car and new discounted car is not so huge. Used cars have really gotten pricey in the last year.

Part of the new car equation is having predictable expenses.

That said, I would buy a vouched-for car from one of you folks in a heartbeat.
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Old 11-25-2020, 10:13 AM   #368
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Valid points for sure. One of the current difficulties now, as Sarafil mentioned, is the delta between decent used car and new discounted car is not so huge. Used cars have really gotten pricey in the last year.
You're telling me about this?



It's not a BMW thing.

OTOH, my monitoring suggests we are past peak and on the decline in used car values...but now in a stage where many dealers have inventory they paid a premium for that they can't sell for the profit they want which will probably take a couple more weeks to even out.

Quote:
Part of the new car equation is having predictable expenses.
Absolutely, but you can counter with a maintenance/repair budget. $40k for a new car with $0 expected in maint/repairs for the first few years vs $5k for a well-maintained beater with $2k/year set for maint/repairs.

There's a scale from old Accord/Camry to new/CPO BMW, but there you go.

Thinking about it in the context of TD's thread...wonder what Stelvios are leasing for and if that might be worth you consideration.
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Old 11-25-2020, 10:31 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by clyde View Post
You're telling me about this?



It's not a BMW thing.

OTOH, my monitoring suggests we are past peak and on the decline in used car values...but now in a stage where many dealers have inventory they paid a premium for that they can't sell for the profit they want which will probably take a couple more weeks to even out.



Absolutely, but you can counter with a maintenance/repair budget. $40k for a new car with $0 expected in maint/repairs for the first few years vs $5k for a well-maintained beater with $2k/year set for maint/repairs.

There's a scale from old Accord/Camry to new/CPO BMW, but there you go.

Thinking about it in the context of TD's thread...wonder what Stelvios are leasing for and if that might be worth you consideration.
Yeah, the Stelvio is cool. Drives like a Giulia on stilts, which is what it is, I guess. Having tried both the X3M and that Stelvio QF, I'd rather have the Stelvio, though both are pretty goofy. I haven't tried the lower end versions of either one, though.
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Old 11-25-2020, 10:46 AM   #370
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If I recall correctly, leasing isn't in the cards for WDC
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