EVs

[John V]

I won't argue price and I wasn't arguing price.

[dan]

Do you think there's a way we can shoehorn a net neutrality argument into this thread as well?

[JST]

I mean, I’m not really arguing price either, I’m just pointing out that when people are talking about the Taycan in this thread, they’re not talking about the Turbo S and they’re mostly not even talking about the 4S. They’re talking either about the base Taycan, which is legitimately a fair amount slower than the Model 3, or they’re talking about the CrossTurismo, which comes as a “4” base, meaning it’s somewhere between the base Taycan and Taycan 4S.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by JST

That's fair. Having driven the Taycan and owning a Model 3, I am not sure I'd really characterize the Taycan as "more emotive" than the Model 3. It looks better (from some angles, though the Taycan "face" is less and less attractive the more I see it). It makes fake motor noises. It has a lot of Porsche badges. But...it's an EV. It drives like an EV. It's slower than the Tesla and costs more. It handles better and in that sense is more fun to drive, but to me it doesn't feel much like a sports car.

I haven't driven a Mach E, though I can see the arguments for the Mach E over the Model Y. It's certainly a nicer looking car.

I guess all of this is very subjective. I might still end up with a Taycan or a Mach E (or even a Lyriq) instead of whatever the next Tesla is, assuming the charging network issue doesn't turn out to be a deal breaker. But it's really hard for me to say "wow, the legacy guys have finally figured this out in a way Tesla hasn't by building cars that appeal to me emotionally," when I just don't see much difference between the widgets they're building and the widgets Tesla is building, and the "emotion" of the Taycan and the Mach E seem to come just from the badges that they are wearing.

Of course anything that involves appearance is going to be subjective. While the original S was "handsome," I guess, when introduced nine years ago (June 2012), the ones rolling off the line today look exactly the same (and rumors are that it will continue on for another few years) and the three other additional models introduced in the past nine years all look like the S.

And that look is boring. The lines are boring. They are so egglike that those who called the original Taurus egglike 35 years ago should retract their original comments based on new information. They are so boring they don't even stir negative reactions (although the front of a 3 still looks like a mouthless Keanu Reeves in The Matrix when I realize it's a 3 I'm looking at).

The best I can say is that the consistency in their design language is impressive and a Tesla certainly looks like a Tesla.

The other manufacturers are launching cars that have lines. That have shapes. That provoke responses with more feeling than yawns. For me, anyway.

The Spartan interiors of Teslas have always been a turn-off for me, but I get others like it. The interiors in the other manufacturer's cars are much more appealing to me. They seem like much warmer and enjoyable places to spend driving time.

Tesla may still have a slight edge in range, but most of the others seem to have far surpassed the "what do I reasonably need in a day plus an anxiety relieving cushion?" line that will cover most people most of the time (certainly to the point that I should be able to reasonably regurgitate the "range doesn't matter because you can plug it in overnight" arguments I've been hearing from some for the past few years).

"But proprietary charging network! AAAAAAHHHHHH!" While it may not be a completely solved problem yet, where was Tesla with it's ubiquitous charging network nine years ago? I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that charging networks will be anything other than a moot point nine years from today.

I think my original point was that in nine years of hawking real world electric cars, Tesla never got me excited about electric cars as a thing and they never got me excited about their cars as cars. In the past few months, a number of manufacturers have drawn my interest in their new/upcoming cars...that happen to be electric.

That, I think, is the trick.

And despite objectively massive multi-year advantages, and the likely truth that without Tesla, the other manufacturers wouldn't be where they are today without them, Tesla didn't turn that trick.

Am I representative enough to matter? I don't know. I'm just thinking that if I am, or close to it, Tesla will be remembered for being like many other innovative pioneers that changed the world before taking up permanent residence in the back pages of wikipedia.

[dan]

I'm doubling my short TSLA position

[clyde]

Originally Posted by JST

I mean, I’m not really arguing price either, I’m just pointing out that when people are talking about the Taycan in this thread, they’re not talking about the Turbo S and they’re mostly not even talking about the 4S. They’re talking either about the base Taycan, which is legitimately a fair amount slower than the Model 3, or they’re talking about the CrossTurismo, which comes as a “4” base, meaning it’s somewhere between the base Taycan and Taycan 4S.

I will take a no-spec base Taycan over the bestestmostest 3 at twice the price all day every day until the day I die. At more than twice the price, I'll do without.

That's not anti-Tesla or pro-Porsche. It's that the Taycan strikes me as cool and would meet my needs and is therefore something I want. The 3 would meet my needs, but does not strike me and is therefore not something I want.

Fuck, I even tried to get myself interested enough in a 3 to drive one as a possible alternative to the Camaro, but I kept coming back to "Why should I waste my time? I don't want one."

[robg]

Originally Posted by Josh (PA)

As I see it, those two things are range and recharging network, which to me, are the biggest two things that matter right now in this space.

I like the Taycan CrossTurismo, and the Audi sibling far more from a looks and real car standpoint. I think the polestar and I4 are nice packages as well. I know my use case is outside of most peoples' here, but I need a car that will reliably do 350 miles on a tank of gas highway cruising at 80mph. As soon as there is an EV that can do that for $60k while carrying 4 ppl in the cabin and a dog in the trunk, I'm in.

Caveat, I don't want to shift into drive on a touch screen, I want turn signal stalks, I want comfortable seats and good ergonomics.

Gotcha. You are a more extreme road tripper than me-- no way my family will ever spend that much time in a car in a single day. Seems like the Mach E w/ the big battery comes closest to your needs right now, so maybe in a few years it'll be at a solid 350 miles of range.

Regarding the charging network, I was watching a review of the Mach E the other day on a youtube channel called "Alex on Autos". SOunds like he actually bought a Mach E as his personal car and gave his observations after a few k miles. He's had a Model 3 before as well. One interesting point he made was the Electrify America now has as many sites as Tesla does but fewer overall chargers. But he made the point that because there are much fewer cars taht can take advantage of EA's high speed charging, the practical effect is that almost never have to wait to charge. He gave an example of charging at an EA station while looking acorss the road a Tesla supercharging station where there was a line of cars waiting to charge.

Personally, I'm not too concerned with charging networks since I've realzied that 95% of my usage doesn't involve longer road trips. But it was an interesting point that I hadn't thought about before. I know Tesla superchargers are still easier to use, but EA and the automakers are starting to roll out "plug and charge" so that you wont have to mess around w/ apps, payment, etc when you're trying to charge. (as an aside, wtf is up with charging networks and apps? Why not just allow use of a credit card? Was watching an epiode of "harry's garage" and it sounds like there's 1 network in the UK that allows this atleast)

[JST]

I appreciate that the Model 3 styling (and that Tesla styling generally) doesn't move people. It is what it is.

I find criticism of the "spartan" interiors on Teslas harder to understand, since that's the way everything is headed these days. The Mach E looks like a carbon copy of a Tesla interior in most ways, though with Ford seats (whether that's good or bad depends on whether you like Ford seats). The Taycan looks like someone was told to take the inside of a Panamera and make it look as much like a Tesla as possible. The seats are good, though.

And I have my own gripes about Tesla the company and Tesla the car, including the loss of tactile buttons (but everyone is copying that!) and the loss of a physical key (ditto!).

I'm all for people buying EVs, and I hope more people do. If Ford and Porsche copying Tesla but putting them in different wrappers is what it takes to get all of you into EVs, I'm cool with that.

[John V]

Admittedly, I'd have a lot more interest in buying a Tesla if Musk wasn't involved with the company anymore.

[JST]

Originally Posted by John V

Admittedly, I'd have a lot more interest in buying a Tesla if Musk wasn't involved with the company anymore.

That's also very valid. The guy is an assclown.

I'm sick to death of his bullshit, honestly.