Pulled over by the 5 0 thread

[3LOU5]

Originally Posted by Alan

Got pulled over today again in a Porsche... jeez these cars are too fun ... I was in the cayman and traffic came to a stop so I decided to cross the line after the 2 cars in front of me did and go into the hov lane which has only certain places you are allowed to go into it .. I was completely wrong for doing it and didn’t realize that in the hov lane the second car behind me was a cop, of course he pulled me over watching the whole thing and didn’t bother the 2 people in front of me who did it first.

I was calm and told him as soon as he approached the window I knew exactly what I did wrong, he started to tell me Alan pulled a knuckle head move doing that (yes he talked in the 3rd person) and how The Porsche is so small it I could have had an accident and the other cars that did it are big .... he also questioned my PBA card and I explained it was from my brother in law.

When he left my car to do whatever they do I immediately called my brother in law and told him I was pulled over and as i’m talking to him the cop calls him which I watching in the rear view mirror and thinking ok this a relief... because once they call the chance of a ticket is low.

The next thing I know is he comes to my window and hands me my stuff back without my PBA card and tells me how I now need to ask my brother in law for a new card and explain why knuckle head Alan made a mistake and needs a new card,

He said I could give you 5 tickets for what you did and I’m just giving you a warning. He must have mentioned the word Porsche multiple times which was weird but I find this whole thing so very weird. They all want their families protected from getting to tickets yet they take your card away when you do something wrong

It’s a weird punishment thing they do and it is really to each other ... strange as shit yes I need to get a new card but they are also making their fellow police officer feel shitty because the card that could save their family is now being used ... all I could say is it’s strange ....

You got lucky that it wasn't a cop on a bike that pulled you over, because I believe he'd have given you a ticket.

Also, I believe that LEOs are more likely to pull over guys in Porsches, BMWs, Benzes and other expensive cars because there's a certain jealousy aspect involved.

And I agree with the majority here about the whole PBA system.

[JST]

Look, the argument you’re making at bottom is a variant of whataboutism, or “everybody’s doing it,” or potentially slippery slopism.

I don’t find the argument that it’s OK to do this obviously wrong and corrupt thing because other people do other obviously wrong and corrupt things persuasive. There’s no bottom to that line of thinking.

Is what AF is doing OK? No. It’s not. Taken on its own terms, it’s wrong, corrupt, and potentially criminal. It’s not an excuse to say “oh well yes but the whole system is corrupt.”

[rumatt]

Originally Posted by JST

I don’t find the argument that it’s OK to do this obviously wrong and corrupt thing because other people do other obviously wrong and corrupt things persuasive.

I wasn't making the argument that the entire system is wrong and corrupt. I was making the argument that if you think what AF is doing is wrong and corrupt, then I don't see how you can be OK with the rest of the legal system.

It would be helpful to hear your answer to the hypothetical about the kid caught with cocaine... and why you think that's not "wrong, corrupt, and potentially criminal".

And whether you'd ever say to a client, "There's a perfectly legal loophole available, but I believe it's wrong and corrupt to use it to get you off"?

I'm getting at the ethics of the person using the loophole, not whether it should exist.

.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by JST

Is what AF is doing OK? No. It’s not. Taken on its own terms, it’s wrong, corrupt, and potentially criminal. It’s not an excuse to say “oh well yes but the whole system is corrupt.”

Criminal ?? That is ridiculous, I am a very easy going person but I take complete offense to being accused of doing anything criminal.

All I did was give my information as well as the card to the police, I didn’t ask for leniency and I didn’t make any bs excuses for what I did wrong ... if the cop gave me a ticket I would deal with it and if he decides not to that is definitely all right with me. When you get pulled over it is the police officers decision to decide to ticket you and also to decide what tickets they will give.

In this case I got in the Police officers words ‘a warning’ you do know police officers do that right ?? You know if I do it again and the same guy stops me he is going to ticket the shit out of me.

Btw I don’t know one person who gets pulled over and says, hey mister police officer please ticket me for what I did wrong and did you notice there is no front plate, please ticket me for that too. Whatever you do don’t let me off with a warning

Let me ask you something else, have you ever been offered anything for free or greatly discounted because you knew someone that worked (not owned) at that establishment, maybe at a restaurant a friend gave you a free drink, maybe a mechanic fixed something for free, maybe you know someone who manages a hotel and gave you a free room ... are you now going to say, no that is wrong I want to pay full price ...

They have an expression and it applies to real life ‘sometimes it all who you know’

Now please when you respond don’t accuse me of something so serious because it is just wrong and highly offensive.

[JST]

Originally Posted by Alan

Criminal ?? That is ridiculous, I am a very easy going person but I take complete offense to being accused of doing anything criminal.

All I did was give my information as well as the card to the police, I didn’t ask for leniency and I didn’t make any bs excuses for what I did wrong ... if the cop gave me a ticket I would deal with it and if he decides not to that is definitely all right with me. When you get pulled over it is the police officers decision to decide to ticket you and also to decide what tickets they will give.

In this case I got in the Police officers words ‘a warning’ you do know police officers do that right ?? You know if I do it again and the same guy stops me he is going to ticket the shit out of me.

Btw I don’t know one person who gets pulled over and says, hey mister police officer please ticket me for what I did wrong and did you notice there is no front plate, please ticket me for that too. Whatever you do don’t let me off with a warning

Let me ask you something else, have you ever been offered anything for free or greatly discounted because you knew someone that worked (not owned) at that establishment, maybe at a restaurant a friend gave you a free drink, maybe a mechanic fixed something for free, maybe you know someone who manages a hotel and gave you a free room ... are you now going to say, no that is wrong I want to pay full price ...

They have an expression and it applies to real life ‘sometimes it all who you know’

Now please when you respond don’t accuse me of something so serious because it is just wrong and highly offensive.

It's police corruption, plain and simple. You can dress it up all you want, you can make excuses for it, you can play it off like it's not a big deal. But it's corruption. It's cops holding people to a different standard based not on their conduct but rather on who they know.

That's not ok.

And the difference between this and a restaurant owner giving me a table toward the front is that a restaurant owner is a private citizen who is free to do whatever she likes with her property, and a police officer is a State employee who works for the public good, not for his or her own private interests. That is a bright line--or it should be. It should not be blurred. You should not use your office to give bennies to your friends, or to let your friends do things you wouldn't let others do. That is the literal, textbook definition of corruption.

Whether it constitutes actual bribery/receipt of bribery under the New York Penal Law is a tougher question. I'm not a New York lawyer and I'm sure it would be a stretch. But it's wrong no matter what.

[JST]

Originally Posted by rumatt

I wasn't making the argument that the entire system is wrong and corrupt. I was making the argument that if you think what AF is doing is wrong and corrupt, then I don't see how you can be OK with the rest of the legal system.

It would be helpful to hear your answer to the hypothetical about the kid caught with cocaine... and why you think that's not "wrong, corrupt, and potentially criminal".

And whether you'd ever say to a client, "There's a perfectly legal loophole available, but I believe it's wrong and corrupt to use it to get you off"?

I'm getting at the ethics of the person using the loophole, not whether it should exist.

.

I don't think that what the police are doing in Long Island is "perfectly legal." I think it's borderline criminal.

S 200.10 Bribe receiving in the third degree.
A public servant is guilty of bribe receiving in the third degree when
he or she solicits, accepts or agrees to accept any benefit from another
person upon an agreement or understanding that his or her vote, opinion,
judgment, action, decision or exercise of discretion as a public servant
will thereby be influenced.

The thing that makes this a little complicated is that the benefit to the cop is somewhat attenuated--but the reason they all look the other way is so that their friends get the same treatment, right? I mean, you honor the PBA thing so that your buddies that have PBA cards also have literal "get out of jail free" cards. So, yeah, I think what we're talking about here is an implicitly agreed upon scheme by the police to use the powers of their public offices to enrich themselves and their friends.

[John V]

Those PBA cards are shite.

A former friend of mine dated a cop for a while and he gave her a bunch of FoP patches, which she scattered across the dash of her car. Kinda the same thing, I guess. Didn't seem to get her out of any tickets

As for cops pulling over the last person in a line of violators (speeders, HoV violators, whatever), that is common. You're the easiest one to pull over.

Anecdotally I've not seen any evidence that cops pull over bright-colored cars or sports cars more than other vehicles. After avoiding being pulled over for years, I got stopped and got a warning for speeding while driving Marisa's CX-5 a couple years ago

[rumatt]

It's not a "get out of jail free" card. It's a "my cop friend isn't here but if he were he would ask you to be lenient, within your discretion" card. It doesn't get you off for murder, it just helps just a little... Just like knowing the DA does.

Interesting angle on it being a bribe. But if you accept your definition of bribery (the payment is the agreement to help out later) then I fail to see how other activities in the DA's office are not illegal bribes as well.

Maybe you think they are?

[Alan]

Jeez Josh ... that is so far fetched, corruption ... bribery

I get the animosity because you unfortunately don’t have a pba card but I think you’re going off on the deep end on this one, but hey I don’t have one now either so I’m pissed too

Also i didn’t say an owner giving you a break I said someone who worked (not owned) the establishment (that’s stealing isn’t it).

[JST]

Originally Posted by rumatt

It's not a "get out of jail free" card. It's a "my cop friend isn't here but if he were he would ask you to be lenient, within your discretion" card. It doesn't get you off for murder, it just helps just a little... Just like knowing the DA does.

Interesting angle on it being a bribe. But if you accept your definition of bribery (the payment is the agreement to help out later) then I fail to see how other activities in the DA's office are not illegal bribes as well.

Maybe you think they are?

I mean, we'll agree to disagree on this one, I guess. I really don't see how people can look at this and see anything other than the rankest, most loathsome corruption.

I can't defend or pass judgment on "other actions in the DAs office" in a vacuum. There are plenty of things that happen with a wink and a nod that are probably over the moral and ethical lines. But in my mind, there's a vast difference between:

(a) "I have a relationship with the DA, so he'll return my calls and listen to me" and
(b) "I have a relationship with the DA, and he'll do me a solid because maybe someday I'll be in a position to help him out."

The first is lobbying. The second is the opening scene of the Godfather.

What strikes me about the PBA card thing, and makes it so odious, are the following two features:

1) It is organized and systemic, apparently--it's a complex, informal system designed to allow cops to scratch the backs of other cops' friends. This isn't a one-off, personal interaction; it's a careful, premeditated construct.

2) It is not a favor or a one off accommodation/act of mercy, it's an (implicit, indirect) quid pro quo. You do the thing because you want other cops to do the thing for you.