Tesla Model S waffling

[3LOU5]

ZBB, those are all good points.

I suppose I really should read ALL the info pertaining to this car before offering my opinion. If someone can take an "1800 mile road trip to some very remote areas" without any major charging issue, then I suppose that's good enough for me.

I'll be interested to read about your experiences on your road trip....

[kognito]

Last night, someone with a Porsche Panamera (red) was clocked at 150mph, chased, and crashed into a building on Mercer Island, then the car caught on fire.

I'm guessing Porsche's stock price won't be effected.

[Plaz]

Originally Posted by JST

I understand what all you guys are saying, but it still strikes me as like someone saying they don't want to buy a Model T because a horse can forage wherever you go and doesn't need gas.

Maybe, but more like because there aren't gas stations everywhere we want to go yet.

I fully expect battery capacity and weight, and charger accessibility, to both improve dramatically over the next few years. It's not so much as a matter of black vs. white as what particular shade of grey is comfortable enough for me to make the leap. Not a matter of if, but when.

[Sharp11]

Those charging stations are proprietary though - if you took the plunge in the past and bought a Tesla roadster, you're out of luck. Got a Leaf? Same problem.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/will-e...andardized.htm

I'd feel more comfortable if there were some kind of standard being proposed for this issue, but there doesn't seem to be. Some kind of partnering for an infrastructure - right now the Tesla sedan is the hot item, but five years from now, who knows?

I've been an early adopter in the audio business, I did it twice and lost a lot of money twice when Sony and Korg decided to pull the plug on the "promising new, game-changing technology" I had invested heavily in. :sigh: I did find a buyer (in europe) for my super expensive Sony digital mixing board, but I'm still sitting on a Korg Oasys.

I love the idea of the overnight charge at home, but keep in mind, the faster the charge the more house current is being drawn - that means at the highest charge rate, you're equivalent draw is that of a washer, dryer, A/C unit, Fridge and some other things running. At the lowest speed you're only equaling a trickle current.

It's new and expensive, so one has to have the means and spirit to be an early adopter, and while it's a better economical investment than the Tesla Roadster, it's still far more costly, all around, than a Honda Accord hybrid - which looks to be a pretty nice and perhaps best of the lot hybrid.

[John V]

Originally Posted by Sharp11

I love the idea of the overnight charge at home, but keep in mind, the faster the charge the more house current is being drawn - that means at the highest charge rate, you're equivalent draw is that of a washer, dryer, A/C unit, Fridge and some other things running. At the lowest speed you're only equaling a trickle current.

Why is this an issue?

I suppose I could see it if you happen to live in an area that experiences summer brown-outs and you have a need to charge the thing during the day.

[JST]

Originally Posted by Sharp11

Those charging stations are proprietary though - if you took the plunge in the past and bought a Tesla roadster, you're out of luck. Got a Leaf? Same problem.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/will-e...andardized.htm

I'd feel more comfortable if there were some kind of standard being proposed for this issue, but there doesn't seem to be. Some kind of partnering for an infrastructure - right now the Tesla sedan is the hot item, but five years from now, who knows?

I've been an early adopter in the audio business, I did it twice and lost a lot of money twice when Sony and Korg decided to pull the plug on the "promising new, game-changing technology" I had invested heavily in. :sigh: I did find a buyer (in europe) for my super expensive Sony digital mixing board, but I'm still sitting on a Korg Oasys.

I love the idea of the overnight charge at home, but keep in mind, the faster the charge the more house current is being drawn - that means at the highest charge rate, you're equivalent draw is that of a washer, dryer, A/C unit, Fridge and some other things running. At the lowest speed you're only equaling a trickle current.

It's new and expensive, so one has to have the means and spirit to be an early adopter, and while it's a better economical investment than the Tesla Roadster, it's still far more costly, all around, than a Honda Accord hybrid - which looks to be a pretty nice and perhaps best of the lot hybrid.

Tesla's approach with the Model S is actually pretty smart. The "charger" for the S is part of a cable that goes with the car. One end is the proprietary connector that goes into the car--the other can be fitted with a variety of adapters, from a 110V house plug to a 240V, 50 amp plug (the "NEMA 14-50" that is widely used in RV parks).

There are a variety of charging standards beyond simply "plug it in to an outlet." There is J1772, which Tesla and (every?) other EV complies with, which is a 240V charging standard (so-called "Level 2 charging"). There are competing DC quick charge formats, including CHAdeMO, SAE/combo, and Tesla's Supercharger. At this point, the SAE standard hasn't been widely deployed, but Tesla's standard should be easily compatible. Tesla is developing a CHAdeMO adapter. So far as I know, no one has signed on to license the Superchargers (though query whether the Tesla-developed Mercedes B class EV will be able to use them).

Bottom line? Yes, there is a bit of a format war, but it's unlikely to be a real a problem for someone buying a Model S.

I'm not sure why power draw is an issue, either. Some houses can't do a full 100 Amp circuit without a panel upgrade, I guess, but both ZBB and I are only doing 50 Amp circuits, anyway.

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by John V

Why is this an issue?

I suppose I could see it if you happen to live in an area that experiences summer brown-outs and you have a need to charge the thing during the day.

I'm in CT, we have the highest electricity rates in the country - don't know how that affects the "fill up" though it's worth noting.

[ZBB]

Originally Posted by Sharp11

Those charging stations are proprietary though - if you took the plunge in the past and bought a Tesla roadster, you're out of luck. Got a Leaf? Same problem.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/will-e...andardized.htm

I'd feel more comfortable if there were some kind of standard being proposed for this issue, but there doesn't seem to be. Some kind of partnering for an infrastructure - right now the Tesla sedan is the hot item, but five years from now, who knows?

There is a standard... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

The standard was originally for AC charging -- and there are tens of thousands of compliant J1772 chargers publicly avail across the US (go to plugshare.com to see where they are). These can be used by all EVs sold in the US over the last few years -- including the LEAF, and all Teslas (although both the Roadster and Model S need an adapter to use, but the adapter comes standard with the car). These can provide up to 20kW of power, although most of the public chargers provide ~6kW (208v at 30A).

The standard was updated for DC Fast Charging, and the first DC fast chargers are just now starting to roll out. The first cars that can use J1772 DC will go on sale in 2014 -- BMW i3 and Chevy Spark (and possibly the Golf EV). The Model S will be able to use these also, but will require an adapter (Tesla hasn't formally announced one, but they have confirmed that they use the J1772 DC standard protocols -- only with a proprietary (and smaller) connector port on the car.

There is also a competing DC standard called CHAdeMO -- which was developed in Japan and adopted by Nissan. CHAdeMO is optional on the Leaf, and there are a few hundred CHAdeMO chargers across the US. Tesla has announced a CHAdeMO adapter for the Model S that will go on sale in a few months. Both J1772 DC and CHAdeMO will provide 50-135kW of power (although the current CHAdeMOs generally are 50kW.

Tesla's Superchargers are not completely proprietary. They use the J1772 DC standard -- but do have a proprietary connector. This keeps non-Teslas from using the Superchargers (which is only fair, since Tesla is providing them at no charge to Tesla owners). Think of Apple, where they use a standard (like USB) but with a proprietary connector (Lightning)...

As for the Roadster not being able to use Tesla's Superchargers -- keep in mind that the Roadster came out in 2008 and had a limited production run (capped at 2500 and produced through 2012). The first car sold that could use any DC charging was the Leaf, but it was only added for the 2012s as an option.

On top of all this, nearly all EVs can connect to a regular 120V and/or 240v outlet. I connect my car to a 240V 50A outlet at home -- which charges at a continuous 40A and delivers 10kW to the car.

Edit: That "How Stuff Works" article you linked to does not have a publish date -- but appears to be 2-3 years old (it mentions the "J1772-2009" spec, so it was written after 2009...). A lot has happened since then -- including the adoption of Level 3 charging (the article only mentions Level 1 and Level 2 charging -- Level 3 is DC Fast Charging). One of the companies listed there has now gone bankrupt (A Better Place) -- their battery swap model did not prove profitable. The article mentions ChargePoint -- which is still around and is one of the 2 big EV charging networks in the US. Chargepoint offers standard J1772 charging and has started introducing CHAdeMO units (some of which can add a J1772 DC port as an upgrade)...

[ZBB]

Originally Posted by Sharp11

I'm in CT, we have the highest electricity rates in the country - don't know how that affects the "fill up" though it's worth noting.

What is your cost per kWh? You can then estimate how much electricity would cost for an EV.

If you drive 1000 miles per month, a Tesla would use approx 300kWh to drive. There's about a 15% inefficiency in charging -- so to get 300kWh into the car, you'd have to pull ~350kWh through your meter.

The national average cost for electricity is 12¢ per kWh -- so 350*0.12 = $42 per month. To compare, an ICE that averages 28mpg would cost $125 to fill up (at $3.50 per gallon).

In my case, we have a Time of Use plan with our utility, so I always charge at night, and pay slightly under 7¢ per kWh. Since getting the Tesla, our electric bill has gone up by about $40 per month...

[bren]

Originally Posted by JST

Some houses can't do a full 100 Amp circuit without a panel upgrade....

This company sells a switching device that ties into an existing 240 circuit so that you can share between appliances and the car. It senses when the dryer (or whatever) is running and disables the car side to help manage the draw on the panel.

http://evsellc.com/