carmudgeons.com  

Go Back   carmudgeons.com > Automotive Forums > Car Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-09-2013, 11:06 AM   #351
lemming
Western Anomaly
 
lemming's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: White Orca
Posts: 16,583
Quote:
Originally Posted by John V View Post
Screw CPO. The only real way to stay ahead of the game is to buy used and sell before the car gets too "used." I've done that for years and have essentially driven cars for free for the entire time (minus expendables). Of course to do that you have to be impervious to the new shiny thing phenomenon.

and i'm following your lead. thanks!

recent car i'm at the plateau for depreciation (E61) and the other one has already increased in value (the 3.2).
__________________


lemming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 11:08 AM   #352
JST
195
 
JST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 24,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by John V View Post
Screw CPO. The only real way to stay ahead of the game is to buy used and sell before the car gets too "used." I've done that for years and have essentially driven cars for free for the entire time (minus expendables). Of course to do that you have to be impervious to the new shiny thing phenomenon.
Well…

You also have to have the time and the ability to fix shit when it breaks. I haven't been keeping track, but my sense is that you've done a number of things to the ZHP to keep it in good shape that might be beyond the time or ability of the average joe.

Just thinking about the stuff that broke on my E61, the warm glow of BMW ownership would have worn off pretty quickly if I'd had to pay shop rates to get it fixed.
JST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 11:13 AM   #353
lemming
Western Anomaly
 
lemming's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: White Orca
Posts: 16,583
Quote:
Originally Posted by JST View Post
Well…

Just thinking about the stuff that broke on my E61, the warm glow of BMW ownership would have worn off pretty quickly if I'd had to pay shop rates to get it fixed.


yeah. i know. i'm now "in it". but somehow it's easier knowing that a 4 year old car that sold for almost $70k.....anyway.

and as for inflation adjustment, unless I'm using the wrong calculator, I think 911s are more expensive than in the mid-80s, when they were hand built.

Targa in 1984 money adjusted to 2013 is $76k. It's unlikely that one can get a new 911 Targa for anything less than 85k.

I just used an inflation calculator.
__________________


lemming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 11:26 AM   #354
John V
No more BMWs
 
John V's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Carmudgeonly Ride: Ram, MS3, CX-5, RX-8
Location: Glenwood, MD
Posts: 14,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by JST View Post
Well…

You also have to have the time and the ability to fix shit when it breaks. I haven't been keeping track, but my sense is that you've done a number of things to the ZHP to keep it in good shape that might be beyond the time or ability of the average joe.

Just thinking about the stuff that broke on my E61, the warm glow of BMW ownership would have worn off pretty quickly if I'd had to pay shop rates to get it fixed.
Ehhh... nothing I've done to that car has been particularly difficult. Maybe the worst one was replacing the rear diff bushing and re-sealing the diff cover. Everything else has been pretty simple stuff. Shocks, brakes, radio...

The real problem is I can't afford the depreciation of buying a new BMW. I guess I could afford the payments on a $55k car but for it to be worth $30k in 5 years... I can't afford that.
John V is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 12:37 PM   #355
robg
Carmudgeon
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,225
Post a recent picture of your vehicle(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemming View Post


yeah. i know. i'm now "in it". but somehow it's easier knowing that a 4 year old car that sold for almost $70k.....anyway.

and as for inflation adjustment, unless I'm using the wrong calculator, I think 911s are more expensive than in the mid-80s, when they were hand built.

Targa in 1984 money adjusted to 2013 is $76k. It's unlikely that one can get a new 911 Targa for anything less than 85k.

I just used an inflation calculator.
Weird. Just found window stickers for an 87 carrera and targa. The targa was only $75 more! Base to base it looks like the 87 coupe was about 83k compared to 84k for the 991. The metallic paint was listed for $715 in 87 dollars - and it's pretty much the same today at 710! (So they've essentially cut the price in half for that option). By 1988, the price for a base 911 climbed to 86k in 2013 dollars. And in 89 it climbed to 96k!! They did add 4 more speakers, a sunroof and an alarm to the std equipment list though. Lol

Last edited by robg; 12-09-2013 at 12:49 PM.
robg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 01:15 PM   #356
lemming
Western Anomaly
 
lemming's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: White Orca
Posts: 16,583
Quote:
Originally Posted by robg View Post
Weird. Just found window stickers for an 87 carrera and targa. The targa was only $75 more! Base to base it looks like the 87 coupe was about 83k compared to 84k for the 991. The metallic paint was listed for $715 in 87 dollars - and it's pretty much the same today at 710! (So they've essentially cut the price in half for that option). By 1988, the price for a base 911 climbed to 86k in 2013 dollars. And in 89 it climbed to 96k!! They did add 4 more speakers, a sunroof and an alarm to the std equipment list though. Lol
from a historical perspective, in subjective terms, for a car that was somewhat more over-engineered, the modern 911 compared to its 1980s ancestor is a pure money machine. because so much of its cost is spread over the 981 and 991 platforms.

in total, the modern 911 seems more expensive to me, based on what is going into it.

i'm not arguing that the 1980s 911 was cheap. it's not. it's basically a hair dryer powering a car that had not changed since 1967.
__________________


lemming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 01:39 PM   #357
robg
Carmudgeon
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,225
Post a recent picture of your vehicle(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemming View Post
from a historical perspective, in subjective terms, for a car that was somewhat more over-engineered, the modern 911 compared to its 1980s ancestor is a pure money machine. because so much of its cost is spread over the 981 and 991 platforms.

in total, the modern 911 seems more expensive to me, based on what is going into it.

i'm not arguing that the 1980s 911 was cheap. it's not. it's basically a hair dryer powering a car that had not changed since 1967.
At best, I'd call it a wash since the engineering costs of late 80s 911 had long since been paid but the production costs were probably higher relatively. But the fact that Porsche wasn't as efficient at producing 911s back then should t be counted against a modern 991. Personally, I find nearly every tangible aspect of "quality" to be higher in the new car.

I'm not even sure I buy into the "over engineered" myth of 80s German cars and Porsches in particular. The current 991 has up to date engine, suspension and electronics. In fact porsche is leading the industry in some aspects now - for example their electric steering is considered the best. The air cooled 911s lagged in that regard. And as far as which one is "over built" I bet the modern one blows the old one away in terms if using high strength steel that wasn't available back then.

You could also compare prices of a base cayman to a 944 and I think the cayman would come out favorably. So i think buyers get more than they did for their money back then due to intelligent platform sharing and better production techniques.

Don't get me wrong - I love air cooled 911s but I think we view them (and other old cars) through rose tinted glasses.

Last edited by robg; 12-09-2013 at 01:51 PM.
robg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 02:32 PM   #358
lemming
Western Anomaly
 
lemming's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: White Orca
Posts: 16,583
Quote:
Originally Posted by robg View Post
At best, I'd call it a wash since the engineering costs of late 80s 911 had long since been paid but the production costs were probably higher relatively. But the fact that Porsche wasn't as efficient at producing 911s back then should t be counted against a modern 991. Personally, I find nearly every tangible aspect of "quality" to be higher in the new car.

I'm not even sure I buy into the "over engineered" myth of 80s German cars and Porsches in particular. The current 991 has up to date engine, suspension and electronics. In fact porsche is leading the industry in some aspects now - for example their electric steering is considered the best. The air cooled 911s lagged in that regard. And as far as which one is "over built" I bet the modern one blows the old one away in terms if using high strength steel that wasn't available back then.

You could also compare prices of a base cayman to a 944 and I think the cayman would come out favorably. So i think buyers get more than they did for their money back then due to intelligent platform sharing and better production techniques.

Don't get me wrong - I love air cooled 911s but I think we view them (and other old cars) through rose tinted glasses.
i do not disagree with you, but i wonder how many 996, 997 or 991 cars will be on the road in 20 years? in and about Boston, i see a lot of hair dryer power 911s. i'm not sure if that's simplicity more than overengineering.

in my humble opinion, and this is the same for BMW, there is a clear line of demarcation where the era of engine rebuilds and disposable engines starts --and i think for Porsche that began in 1999.
__________________


lemming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 02:35 PM   #359
zach
swinging for the fences
 
zach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: 987, X7 M60i, e36 M3
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 5,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemming View Post
i do not disagree with you, but i wonder how many 996, 997 or 991 cars will be on the road in 20 years? in and about Boston, i see a lot of hair dryer power 911s. i'm not sure if that's simplicity more than overengineering.

in my humble opinion, and this is the same for BMW, there is a clear line of demarcation where the era of engine rebuilds and disposable engines starts --and i think for Porsche that began in 1999.
I keep seeing your name in this thread and click, hoping that you've posted a picture of your new wagon.
zach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 02:40 PM   #360
lemming
Western Anomaly
 
lemming's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: White Orca
Posts: 16,583
Quote:
Originally Posted by zach View Post
I keep seeing your name in this thread and click, hoping that you've posted a picture of your new wagon.
i apologize.

i will. (it's dirty as hell) every time i drive it, it's freaking dark outside (AM or PM).

will do from garage on my way home.
__________________


lemming is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A recent picture of my garage rumatt Car Talk 10 07-05-2007 12:22 PM
Post recent pics of your car(s) nate Car Talk 34 03-24-2004 10:25 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Forums © 2003-2008, 'Mudgeon Enterprises - Site hosting by AYN & Associates, LLC