EVs

[clyde]

I was just watching this Magnus Walker video of the base Taycan wagon and it dawned on me. I already knew that I liked the Taycan. There's a lot I really like about the Cadillac Lyriq. If I get over the "Mustang" part of the Mach E's name, there's a lot to like there, too. The Polestar 2 is nice. And on and on.

All these electric vehicles have me kind of excited for cars. The ones I just named are all cars I can see myself owning. There's a manufacturer that, maybe, is doing electric vehicle specific things better than the others, but not much. And again, just "maybe." But that manufacturer is not represented on that list. The only vehicles they make are electric and they definitely built a better mousetrap. Initially.

But why aren't any of them on this list? Outside and in, the ones on the list look interesting to me. They look cool. They make me feel something. The manufacturer not represented makes cold, boring eggs that look funny. The ones on the list build cars like they know what they're doing and they tend to build cars that are screwed together well. The manufacturer not represented builds cars with an attention to detail like the Friday afternoon shift at a 1970s era GM plant. [JST says that last line isn't worth a whole lot. Ok. -ed] The manufacturers represented build real cars, not sophomoric butthole jokes.

I think the sleeping giant has woken. I don't know if the upstart manufacturer will ultimately prosper or die, but the tortoise and hare story comes to mind.

[JST]

The "Teslas are built like shit" takes from people who haven't owned a Tesla are not worth a whole lot.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by JST

The "Teslas are built like shit" takes from people who haven't owned a Tesla are not worth a whole lot.

That a multi-time owner's take on a "this manufacturer builds boring cars that have grown stagnant while many others are launching emotive cars" is to only pinpoint a minor aside supported by industry and market wide conventional wisdom is of similarly dubious value.

But, perhaps accurate and correct, so so noted and the original post has been edited to reflect.

[robg]

Yep - this pretty much aligns with my thoughts as well. Ever since the introduction of the Mach E and Taycan, I'm not seeing enough that's special about Teslas to make up for some of the downsides. Tesla does still do some things better than any other manufacturer , but to me, those things are not compelling enough to make up for the some of the downsides. I liked the looks and specs of the Model S enough to almost convince myself to buy one a few years ago, but in the end, it just wasn't the complete package i was looking for. The fact that I'm much more excited about the Taycan CT also shows that EVs are finally getting good enough to have wider appeal. I know the Model S still wins on "value for money" but at 80k+ there has to be an emotional component as well.

[Josh (PA)]

Originally Posted by robg

Yep - this pretty much aligns with my thoughts as well. Ever since the introduction of the Mach E and Taycan, I'm not seeing enough that's special about Teslas to make up for some of the downsides. Tesla does still do some things better than any other manufacturer , but to me, those things are not compelling enough to make up for the some of the downsides.

As I see it, those two things are range and recharging network, which to me, are the biggest two things that matter right now in this space.

I like the Taycan CrossTurismo, and the Audi sibling far more from a looks and real car standpoint. I think the polestar and I4 are nice packages as well. I know my use case is outside of most peoples' here, but I need a car that will reliably do 350 miles on a tank of gas highway cruising at 80mph. As soon as there is an EV that can do that for $60k while carrying 4 ppl in the cabin and a dog in the trunk, I'm in.

Caveat, I don't want to shift into drive on a touch screen, I want turn signal stalks, I want comfortable seats and good ergonomics.

[robg]

Originally Posted by Josh (PA)

As I see it, those two things are range and recharging network, which to me, are the biggest two things that matter right now in this space.

I like the Taycan CrossTurismo, and the Audi sibling far more from a looks and real car standpoint. I think the polestar and I4 are nice packages as well. I know my use case is outside of most peoples' here, but I need a car that will reliably do 350 miles on a tank of gas highway cruising at 80mph. As soon as there is an EV that can do that for $60k while carrying 4 ppl in the cabin and a dog in the trunk, I'm in.

Caveat, I don't want to shift into drive on a touch screen, I want turn signal stalks, I want comfortable seats and good ergonomics.

Gotcha. You are a more extreme road tripper than me-- no way my family will ever spend that much time in a car in a single day. Seems like the Mach E w/ the big battery comes closest to your needs right now, so maybe in a few years it'll be at a solid 350 miles of range.

Regarding the charging network, I was watching a review of the Mach E the other day on a youtube channel called "Alex on Autos". SOunds like he actually bought a Mach E as his personal car and gave his observations after a few k miles. He's had a Model 3 before as well. One interesting point he made was the Electrify America now has as many sites as Tesla does but fewer overall chargers. But he made the point that because there are much fewer cars taht can take advantage of EA's high speed charging, the practical effect is that almost never have to wait to charge. He gave an example of charging at an EA station while looking acorss the road a Tesla supercharging station where there was a line of cars waiting to charge.

Personally, I'm not too concerned with charging networks since I've realzied that 95% of my usage doesn't involve longer road trips. But it was an interesting point that I hadn't thought about before. I know Tesla superchargers are still easier to use, but EA and the automakers are starting to roll out "plug and charge" so that you wont have to mess around w/ apps, payment, etc when you're trying to charge. (as an aside, wtf is up with charging networks and apps? Why not just allow use of a credit card? Was watching an epiode of "harry's garage" and it sounds like there's 1 network in the UK that allows this atleast)

[JST]

Originally Posted by clyde

That a multi-time owner's take on a "this manufacturer builds boring cars that have grown stagnant while many others are launching emotive cars" is to only pinpoint a minor aside supported by industry and market wide conventional wisdom is of similarly dubious value.

But, perhaps accurate and correct, so so noted and the original post has been edited to reflect.

That's fair. Having driven the Taycan and owning a Model 3, I am not sure I'd really characterize the Taycan as "more emotive" than the Model 3. It looks better (from some angles, though the Taycan "face" is less and less attractive the more I see it). It makes fake motor noises. It has a lot of Porsche badges. But...it's an EV. It drives like an EV. It's slower than the Tesla and costs more. It handles better and in that sense is more fun to drive, but to me it doesn't feel much like a sports car.

I haven't driven a Mach E, though I can see the arguments for the Mach E over the Model Y. It's certainly a nicer looking car.

I guess all of this is very subjective. I might still end up with a Taycan or a Mach E (or even a Lyriq) instead of whatever the next Tesla is, assuming the charging network issue doesn't turn out to be a deal breaker. But it's really hard for me to say "wow, the legacy guys have finally figured this out in a way Tesla hasn't by building cars that appeal to me emotionally," when I just don't see much difference between the widgets they're building and the widgets Tesla is building, and the "emotion" of the Taycan and the Mach E seem to come just from the badges that they are wearing.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by JST

That's fair. Having driven the Taycan and owning a Model 3, I am not sure I'd really characterize the Taycan as "more emotive" than the Model 3. It looks better (from some angles, though the Taycan "face" is less and less attractive the more I see it). It makes fake motor noises. It has a lot of Porsche badges. But...it's an EV. It drives like an EV. It's slower than the Tesla and costs more. It handles better and in that sense is more fun to drive, but to me it doesn't feel much like a sports car.

I haven't driven a Mach E, though I can see the arguments for the Mach E over the Model Y. It's certainly a nicer looking car.

I guess all of this is very subjective. I might still end up with a Taycan or a Mach E (or even a Lyriq) instead of whatever the next Tesla is, assuming the charging network issue doesn't turn out to be a deal breaker. But it's really hard for me to say "wow, the legacy guys have finally figured this out in a way Tesla hasn't by building cars that appeal to me emotionally," when I just don't see much difference between the widgets they're building and the widgets Tesla is building, and the "emotion" of the Taycan and the Mach E seem to come just from the badges that they are wearing.

Of course anything that involves appearance is going to be subjective. While the original S was "handsome," I guess, when introduced nine years ago (June 2012), the ones rolling off the line today look exactly the same (and rumors are that it will continue on for another few years) and the three other additional models introduced in the past nine years all look like the S.

And that look is boring. The lines are boring. They are so egglike that those who called the original Taurus egglike 35 years ago should retract their original comments based on new information. They are so boring they don't even stir negative reactions (although the front of a 3 still looks like a mouthless Keanu Reeves in The Matrix when I realize it's a 3 I'm looking at).

The best I can say is that the consistency in their design language is impressive and a Tesla certainly looks like a Tesla.

The other manufacturers are launching cars that have lines. That have shapes. That provoke responses with more feeling than yawns. For me, anyway.

The Spartan interiors of Teslas have always been a turn-off for me, but I get others like it. The interiors in the other manufacturer's cars are much more appealing to me. They seem like much warmer and enjoyable places to spend driving time.

Tesla may still have a slight edge in range, but most of the others seem to have far surpassed the "what do I reasonably need in a day plus an anxiety relieving cushion?" line that will cover most people most of the time (certainly to the point that I should be able to reasonably regurgitate the "range doesn't matter because you can plug it in overnight" arguments I've been hearing from some for the past few years).

"But proprietary charging network! AAAAAAHHHHHH!" While it may not be a completely solved problem yet, where was Tesla with it's ubiquitous charging network nine years ago? I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that charging networks will be anything other than a moot point nine years from today.

I think my original point was that in nine years of hawking real world electric cars, Tesla never got me excited about electric cars as a thing and they never got me excited about their cars as cars. In the past few months, a number of manufacturers have drawn my interest in their new/upcoming cars...that happen to be electric.

That, I think, is the trick.

And despite objectively massive multi-year advantages, and the likely truth that without Tesla, the other manufacturers wouldn't be where they are today without them, Tesla didn't turn that trick.

Am I representative enough to matter? I don't know. I'm just thinking that if I am, or close to it, Tesla will be remembered for being like many other innovative pioneers that changed the world before taking up permanent residence in the back pages of wikipedia.

[John V]

The Taycan isn't meaningfully slower than the Tesla, but the fact that it maintains that speed as the battery discharges while the Tesla doesn't is more important.

[JST]

Originally Posted by John V

The Taycan isn't meaningfully slower than the Tesla, but the fact that it maintains that speed as the battery discharges while the Tesla doesn't is more important.

It's literally not, unless you plan to track it, which I don't. And I suspect most people buying these cars aren't, either.

In 7 years, I have never encountered a situation where I noticed a degradation in performance based either on battery SOC or driving history. Like the comment about build quality, this is one of those things people talk about but it doesn't mean anything in the real world.