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Old 04-20-2021, 08:48 AM   #151
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I am not one to pass judgement when I don't know all the information, but I will say that as product development engineer Tesla just reeks of a company that puts stuff out there when it's not quite ready for prime time. That's not to say they don't make good vehicles or don't have great technology. But Tesla does push "cool" and new features in a way a neat consumer products may be marketed. I'm amazed they are getting away with doing that with vehicles.

I think this is one of the cases in which the NHTSA's safety standard's are simply too antiquated to properly assess all the risks of EV's and since they have the agility of Stonehenge, they may never catch up to the the industry. It will be left to the car companies' internal safety risk assessments to put an "appropriately safe" product out there.

All that said, if it weren't because Tesla has so many fanbois, Musk may have killed the company a while ago with all the careless tweeting. The level of hubris amazes me.
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:03 AM   #152
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Elon's hubris is part of what created the fanboi culture. See the similar god-worship around Steve Jobs and Apple.
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:12 AM   #153
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I’m not going to defend Musk’s statements about the capabilities of the system, which I think are irresponsible. Nor am I going to defend his post-accident tweets, which I think (as a person) are ghoulish and (as a lawyer) are really a bad idea.

But this accident, based on the facts as I understand them, doesn’t seem like a particularly good candidate for blaming Tesla. This isn’t a scenario where the driver inadvertently exceeded the systems capabilities, like that guy in CA; it sure sounds like the operator of the car took multiple steps to defeat the Tesla systems that (should) prevent this, like...not sitting in the driver seat at all.

So I’ll co-sign your concern about these systems. In fact, I don’t trust any of them, but I especially don’t trust Tesla’s. This accident, though, seems like pure idiocy on the part of the driver/passenger.
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:52 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC View Post
I am not one to pass judgement when I don't know all the information, but I will say that as product development engineer Tesla just reeks of a company that puts stuff out there when it's not quite ready for prime time. That's not to say they don't make good vehicles or don't have great technology. But Tesla does push "cool" and new features in a way a neat consumer products may be marketed. I'm amazed they are getting away with doing that with vehicles.

I think this is one of the cases in which the NHTSA's safety standard's are simply too antiquated to properly assess all the risks of EV's and since they have the agility of Stonehenge, they may never catch up to the the industry. It will be left to the car companies' internal safety risk assessments to put an "appropriately safe" product out there.

All that said, if it weren't because Tesla has so many fanbois, Musk may have killed the company a while ago with all the careless tweeting. The level of hubris amazes me.
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Elon's hubris is part of what created the fanboi culture. See the similar god-worship around Steve Jobs and Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JST View Post
I’m not going to defend Musk’s statements about the capabilities of the system, which I think are irresponsible. Nor am I going to defend his post-accident tweets, which I think (as a person) are ghoulish and (as a lawyer) are really a bad idea.

But this accident, based on the facts as I understand them, doesn’t seem like a particularly good candidate for blaming Tesla. This isn’t a scenario where the driver inadvertently exceeded the systems capabilities, like that guy in CA; it sure sounds like the operator of the car took multiple steps to defeat the Tesla systems that (should) prevent this, like...not sitting in the driver seat at all.

So I’ll co-sign your concern about these systems. In fact, I don’t trust any of them, but I especially don’t trust Tesla’s. This accident, though, seems like pure idiocy on the part of the driver/passenger.
A couple thoughts:

Setting aside all things government regulation or enforcement related, I would think that jury verdicts would play a role in establishing what is "appropriately safe." I have not followed closely enough to have any clue why there have not yet been any high-visibility lawsuits, outcomes or milestones yet.

The Musk playbook, its cult-like fanboi culture, its victim blaming, its whataboutism, and its subject changing reminds me quite a bit of someone else who recently spent four years being every day's top story and his disciples utter devotion to him and his lies.
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:54 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clyde
A couple thoughts:

Setting aside all things government regulation or enforcement related, I would think that jury verdicts would play a role in establishing what is "appropriately safe." I have not followed closely enough to have any clue why there have not yet been any high-visibility lawsuits, outcomes or milestones yet.

The Musk playbook, its cult-like fanboi culture, its victim blaming, its whataboutism, and its subject changing reminds me quite a bit of someone else who recently spent four years being every day's top story and his disciples utter devotion to him and his lies.
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Old 04-20-2021, 03:09 PM   #156
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+2

It is also interesting that you rarely if ever hear of accidents involving driver assistance features made by other companies that have similar limitations and capabilities. While it is easy to point to individual cases and say "well that person was being irresponsible", there have been enough now that it seems to be pattern of people being overconfident in TEsla's driver assistatnce features. I know Tesla has toned down some of theiir rhetoric, but it still seems like they overhype these features too much.
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Old 04-20-2021, 03:23 PM   #157
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It is also interesting that you rarely if ever hear of accidents involving driver assistance features made by other companies that have similar limitations and capabilities. While it is easy to point to individual cases and say "well that person was being irresponsible", there have been enough now that it seems to be pattern of people being overconfident in TEsla's driver assistatnce features. I know Tesla has toned down some of theiir rhetoric, but it still seems like they overhype these features too much.
Exactly.
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Old 04-20-2021, 04:13 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robg View Post
+2

It is also interesting that you rarely if ever hear of accidents involving driver assistance features made by other companies that have similar limitations and capabilities. While it is easy to point to individual cases and say "well that person was being irresponsible", there have been enough now that it seems to be pattern of people being overconfident in TEsla's driver assistatnce features. I know Tesla has toned down some of theiir rhetoric, but it still seems like they overhype these features too much.
I mean, putting Tesla in the headline guarantees a spike in traffic. I'm not suggesting this is some sort of media conspiracy, but I also don't think we should assume that just because we don't hear about other, less sexy driver assistance systems causing accidents that they aren't happening.

But, backing up: I think all of these systems are INCREDIBLY dangerous. I think any system that allows the driver's attention to wander, even a little bit, is a bad idea. Of course, systems like BlueCruise and SuperCruise that have driver monitoring are *better* than the Tesla system that does not, but unless and until you can reliably provide Level 5 autonomy I don't think you should be letting the general public use these systems.

Tesla's system is more dangerous than most both because of its lack of driver monitoring and because of the hype and misunderstanding surrounding it. That's a problem, and Tesla should correct it (or be forced to correct it).

With all of that said, if some dumbshit puts his car in drive and clambers into the back seat or whatever, that's...unfortunate, but also pretty clear driver error and not car maker error.
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Old 04-20-2021, 05:25 PM   #159
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What gets me most is Tesla/Musk missing (and misleading) on the stats comparing autopilot to humans and reaching that 10X safer claim.. Ugh.

There are many faults with that comparative claim but most important of all, autopilot is not good enough for most tricky, city, high-intersection situations. Most Tesla owners are smart & responsible enough to not rely on it when it shouldn't be relied. They may turn it on on a longer, smoother stretch... Bingo, lots of miles that were not that risky for humans either. Secondly, it cannot even "do" what is highest workload driving (outside of auto-x/track) and that is a city. We saw the recent video. It has no understanding and it really cannot anytime soon.. So the per mile safety comparison remains a garbage statistic.
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Old 04-21-2021, 09:50 AM   #160
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On Musk's claim:

https://www.engadget.com/tesla-crash...011233886.html

Despite Musk's tweet, there have been examples of Tesla owners with Autopilot enabled while incapacitated, inattentive or out of the driver's seat. One person on Twitter pushed back on Musk's claim that Autopilot wouldn't have been enabled on that street, posting a video showing it working on a street with no lines.
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