Taycan reveal

[rumatt]

And Nick, I agree the Model 3 steering and handling is definitely nothing special. There's a ton of room for improvement.

I think for some reason I thought it was going to be more on par with the model 3, and exceed it on at least some spec(s).

[FC]

Originally Posted by Nick M3

They will if they think that the sedan market is basically dead and that all buyers really want is an SUV mix.

That makes me sad.

[equ]

The model3 will continue to sell like hotcakes, I don't expect that for the Taycan - reservations notwithstanding. These two models exist in parallel universes.

I don't see the corvette analogy. The model3 is more like the first Honda Accord of the 70's where, for the general market, it's providing a great value proposition (I say this having never sat in one, let alone driven it). To my surprise, the other OEM's seem to be like the domestic Goliaths trying to figure out how to deal with David. Decades later Toyota (and maybe VW globally) have ended up more successful and arguably in better places than Honda, but Honda held advantages of production, engineering and perception over other many makers for decades. The price point of the Taycan only strengthens the argument for the model 3.

TSLA is a very high priced stock. It's value is a guess for the future; not reachable by extrapolation from current margin. This is a huge advantage for Tesla (just like its battery density and charger network). Silly Porsche is probably trying to make money off of the Taycan.

[Nick M3]

Originally Posted by rumatt

And Nick, I agree the Model 3 steering and handling is definitely nothing special. There's a ton of room for improvement.

I think for some reason I thought it was going to be more on par with the model 3, and exceed it on at least some spec(s).

If you exclude maximum range and autopilot (both of which are very significant, I will grant, even if the latter is something that no normal company could possibly accept the liability risks for), where does the Model 3 exceed or equal the Taycan?

[Nick M3]

Originally Posted by equ

The model3 will continue to sell like hotcakes, I don't expect that for the Taycan - reservations notwithstanding. These two models exist in parallel universes.

I don't see the corvette analogy. The model3 is more like the first Honda Accord of the 70's where, for the general market, it's providing a great value proposition (I say this having never sat in one, let alone driven it). To my surprise, the other OEM's seem to be like the domestic Goliaths trying to figure out how to deal with David. Decades later Toyota (and maybe VW globally) have ended up more successful and arguably in better places than Honda, but Honda held advantages of production, engineering and perception over other many makers for decades. The price point of the Taycan only strengthens the argument for the model 3.

TSLA is a very high priced stock. It's value is a guess for the future; not reachable by extrapolation from current margin. This is a huge advantage for Tesla (just like its battery density and charger network). Silly Porsche is probably trying to make money off of the Taycan.

Why are you comparing the Model 3 with the Taycan at all?

Edit: I really don’t get all of this. Everyone seems to agree that the Taycan is a lot nicer, but is filling a completely different niche. Did anyone here actually expect that this would be an affordable car?

Porsche can charge a lot for their cars and obviously will. But I really don’t get the whole “it has to be better than a Tesla in every single way on paper, or it’s crap.” The Taycan is obviously actually able to sustain performance, something that the Tesla doesn’t appear to be capable of. Has a Tesla successfully lapped the Nurburgring without overheating? I can’t find any examples of that. I’d bet that Porsche could post even bigger numbers if they dialed the margins back like Tesla does.

[equ]

I'm a porsche fan, I've transferred (too much) of my not so big kitty to their bank account.

I'm decidedly not a Tesla fan, never sat in one, never drove one despite many opportunities. I do not own TSLA, don't like how they look, don't like listening to their owners keeping talking about them and geeking out over range and all that garbage. I am super-angry about the "autopilot" marketing lie. I expect they push their batteries harder and overstate any metric, range/performance/reliability whereas the Germans understate etc. etc.

That said... These cars are about the same volume inside, give or take, are about as fast, give or take (on the street, for one go like what most people do, not Nurburging lappers), and have similar range give or take. One is two to three times as expensive as the other. It's not going to sell. Expensive porsches (911's etc) offer something entirely different. They sell a shape, the story of (asshole) Steve McQueen, 70's images of European roads...

The model 3 is the newly introduced Accord or the 3-series at its heyday. It makes sense and offers something for everyone, practicality, a dose of performance, being "ahead"...

We'll see what the Taycan proposition is; I don't profess to have got it. But at 150k they will sell very, very few and in fact, make the case for the model 3 performance.

[wdc330i]

Isn't the Taycan just a laboratory for getting the tech right, so it can be pushed into the lucrative, mass-market SUV niche?

Remember Porsche's promise to take all Macans electric very soon:

https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/26/1...duction-taycan

Makes sense to introduce the tech in a high-end early adopter model. These owners likely have another car to drive in a pinch...

[Nick M3]

Originally Posted by equ

I'm a porsche fan, I've transferred (too much) of my not so big kitty to their bank account.

I'm decidedly not a Tesla fan, never sat in one, never drove one despite many opportunities. I do not own TSLA, don't like how they look, don't like listening to their owners keeping talking about them and geeking out over range and all that garbage. I am super-angry about the "autopilot" marketing lie. I expect they push their batteries harder and overstate any metric, range/performance/reliability whereas the Germans understate etc. etc.

That said... These cars are about the same volume inside, give or take, are about as fast, give or take (on the street, for one go like what most people do, not Nurburging lappers), and have similar range give or take. One is two to three times as expensive as the other. It's not going to sell. Expensive porsches (911's etc) offer something entirely different. They sell a shape, the story of (asshole) Steve McQueen, 70's images of European roads...

The model 3 is the newly introduced Accord or the 3-series at its heyday. It makes sense and offers something for everyone, practicality, a dose of performance, being "ahead"...

We'll see what the Taycan proposition is; I don't profess to have got it. But at 150k they will sell very, very few and in fact, make the case for the model 3 performance.

Porsche sells fewer 911s in a year than Tesla sells Model 3s 1-2 months. Ditto the Panamera.

This isn't attempting to compete with the Model 3. I don't understand why everyone is trying to make it a Model 3 competitor.

[JST]

Originally Posted by Nick M3

Why are you comparing the Model 3 with the Taycan at all?

Edit: I really don’t get all of this. Everyone seems to agree that the Taycan is a lot nicer, but is filling a completely different niche. Did anyone here actually expect that this would be an affordable car?

Porsche can charge a lot for their cars and obviously will. But I really don’t get the whole “it has to be better than a Tesla in every single way on paper, or it’s crap.” The Taycan is obviously actually able to sustain performance, something that the Tesla doesn’t appear to be capable of. Has a Tesla successfully lapped the Nurburgring without overheating? I can’t find any examples of that. I’d bet that Porsche could post even bigger numbers if they dialed the margins back like Tesla does.

I'm not arguing that Porsche has to be better than Tesla in all specifics. I'm just observing that it's remarkable how far short of Tesla the Taycan falls in terms of (presumed) range. I've caveated my comments by saying that we don't know what the final range numbers will be, and maybe they will surprise me--but my guess is that if they had a great story to tell on range, they'd be telling it.

Every review I've seen of the "mainstream" EVs (i-Pace, e-tron) notes that they are noticeably less efficient than Tesla. They go less distance with an equivalent amount of battery. That matters, because it tells us something about Tesla's competitive and technological edge in this space. It also matters to things like cost, weight, and (crucially) charge speed, in that it doesn't matter if a car can charge it's battery 20 percent faster if it has to use 20 percent more energy to get someplace.

The Taycan does not seem to be different in this regard. That's interesting, and I think it's important.

Do I think the Taycan is a real Tesla competitor? No. It's a different (and much smaller) market segment. It may well be a better driver's car. It likely will have a nicer interior. People who want a sports car will buy one. I suspect a fair number of Tesla owners will buy one, as a matter of fact.

But it's not a mainstream car. The Teslas (even the Model S) very much are.

I applaud Porsche (and VAG) for their commitment to electrification. I have no doubt that their technology will improve. Maybe by the time VAG launches a real mainstream EV (whenever that is), they will have closed the gap with Tesla's tech. Or maybe not. Who knows?

I just think it's silly all the breathless articles that are being written about how the Taycan is a "Tesla killer." It's not, at all.

[robg]

Originally Posted by FC

I thought Porsche would eventually offer a smaller sedan to compete with the M3 but maybe that market is not profitable enough. I suspect the same may be the case with their EV's.

I suspect we'll have to wait until Mercedes/BMW/Audi offer performance EV's to get a competitor to the Model 3.

Yeah there was talk/rumors for a while about Porsche making their own version of the Audi S4. Basically, a sedan Macan. I'm guessing they decided to shelve that and just focus on the Taycan instead.