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[lemming]

For Zach: garage is empty at 5am.

[zach]

Originally Posted by lemming

For Zach: garage is empty at 5am.

NICE!

[Jeff_DML]

Originally Posted by robg

...- for example their electric steering is considered the best. ...

i haven't heard that I have read the GT3 electric steering is pretty good but normal 911 only so so

[lupinsea]

[robg]

Originally Posted by Jeff_DML

i haven't heard that I have read the GT3 electric steering is pretty good but normal 911 only so so

Well - I think the so so reviews you see are comparing it to past 911s- not other cars with electric steering. FWIW, the 991 steering felt way better than bmws electric steering to me, for example.

[robg]

Originally Posted by lemming

i do not disagree with you, but i wonder how many 996, 997 or 991 cars will be on the road in 20 years? in and about Boston, i see a lot of hair dryer power 911s. i'm not sure if that's simplicity more than overengineering.

in my humble opinion, and this is the same for BMW, there is a clear line of demarcation where the era of engine rebuilds and disposable engines starts --and i think for Porsche that began in 1999.

Yeah - hard to tell. 911s tend to be owned by older, wealthier people who can afford to keep them as garage queens. So the survival rates of the older vs the newer ones are probably going to be similar just due to that (regardless of which one would win a durability test). Pretty rare to see any 911 with over 100k i think. Galvanized bodies are probably the other contributing factor- as that was still rare in the 80s. As long as a car doesn't rust, I think enterprising mechanics /aftermarket copanies will always find ways to keep cars on the road. So it wouldn't surprise me to see even 1998 996s on the road in 10-15 years.

As far as engine rebuilds, I assume you're talking about the potential for "grenading" due to IMS/RMS issues in the m96/97? I'm not fully up on the air cooled engines but whenever I did research it always seems like each year Porsche fixed an issue and then introduced another- some of which caused catastrophic problems. I think maybe the later carrera 3.2s were fairly trouble free though. Might be too early to say but the 2009+ DI motors seem to be holding up pretty well so far. Plus I think Porsche and the aftermarket have largely addressed the early water cooled issues by now.

With bmws, the m88/s38 and s14 require rebuilds every 100k or so. The regular m20s and m30s seem to last a while but there are plenty of m52s/m54s that got over 200k.

It does seem like modern cars in general are more "compontized" with less thought given to being able to repair/replace smaller pieces. But it always surprises me to see the techniques people come up with to fix things that weren't designed to be taken apart.

But regardless of the era, it seems like most porsche owners don't work on their own cars, instead taking them to expensive specialists who have the special tools, knowledge and experience to fix them.

Overall my sense is that modern cars have just as much potential (if not more) to last a long time. I think people will figure how to keep engines with DI and turbos running, and update cabin electronics.

[lemming]

Originally Posted by robg

Yeah - hard to tell. 911s tend to be owned by older, wealthier people who can afford to keep them as garage queens. So the survival rates of the older vs the newer ones are probably going to be similar just due to that (regardless of which one would win a durability test). Pretty rare to see any 911 with over 100k i think. Galvanized bodies are probably the other contributing factor- as that was still rare in the 80s. As long as a car doesn't rust, I think enterprising mechanics /aftermarket copanies will always find ways to keep cars on the road. So it wouldn't surprise me to see even 1998 996s on the road in 10-15 years.

As far as engine rebuilds, I assume you're talking about the potential for "grenading" due to IMS/RMS issues in the m96/97? I'm not fully up on the air cooled engines but whenever I did research it always seems like each year Porsche fixed an issue and then introduced another- some of which caused catastrophic problems. I think maybe the later carrera 3.2s were fairly trouble free though. Might be too early to say but the 2009+ DI motors seem to be holding up pretty well so far. Plus I think Porsche and the aftermarket have largely addressed the early water cooled issues by now.

With bmws, the m88/s38 and s14 require rebuilds every 100k or so. The regular m20s and m30s seem to last a while but there are plenty of m52s/m54s that got over 200k.

It does seem like modern cars in general are more "compontized" with less thought given to being able to repair/replace smaller pieces. But it always surprises me to see the techniques people come up with to fix things that weren't designed to be taken apart.

But regardless of the era, it seems like most porsche owners don't work on their own cars, instead taking them to expensive specialists who have the special tools, knowledge and experience to fix them.

Overall my sense is that modern cars have just as much potential (if not more) to last a long time. I think people will figure how to keep engines with DI and turbos running, and update cabin electronics.

i'm finding out, firsthand, to your point.

and what i'm finding is that the modern car is more modular, but it's "replacement" as opposed to "fix".

and that could be the way that the engineers were forced to design and to execute on the part(s).

i am extremely curious (isn't everyone) to see how well the 996s (early and late) hold up. the on-the-fly PDFs that are shipped to mechanics? on the 993s, it was about 1 thick binder. for the 996s? it's (no exaggeration) like 10 binders, they changed parts so much on the fly.

ultimately, i think the complexity of the more modern engines scale logarithmically and not in linear fashion, so that we will see fewer of them out and on the roads in 20 years. and i think it has to do with electronics as well as cost of re-build.

if you look at it, Porsche and BMW's versions of VANOS is really difficult to rebuild, but then throw in direct injection, higher compression and i think these are mainly throwaway engines. the HP/litre outputs demand so much from an enclosed and very hot space that failure rates necessarily must go higher --and this is driven by heavier cars which require more power, fewer emissions and more efficiency.

the modern car cannot win --it's too dependent on electronic tech whereas the older cars are purely mechanical.

the mere penetrance of electronics dictates that secondary mechanics will be precluded from performing majority of the repairs; and the dealer doesn't want to rebuild anything, they just want to replace.

[lemming]

Empty garage. 7:30pm

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by JST

Well…

You also have to have the time and the ability to fix shit when it breaks. I haven't been keeping track, but my sense is that you've done a number of things to the ZHP to keep it in good shape that might be beyond the time or ability of the average joe.

Just thinking about the stuff that broke on my E61, the warm glow of BMW ownership would have worn off pretty quickly if I'd had to pay shop rates to get it fixed.

Mine's 7 years old now - it only has just under 50k on the clock, still looks new and even has a bit of new smell left, but does have a diff-drain leak (first issue).

If I keep it another few years, it'll be well worth it.

I love that the Merc was so cheap to buy, even after repairing the head gasket and drivers seat it still comes in well under $10k - and it's a great drive at 86k miles. It's a minimalist car by today's standards.

[Sharp11]

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