Yup, more waffling...

[FC]

Originally Posted by JST

Oh, yeah. And if you get the FE3, I think it's included.

FC, as for the Mini, you don't need to spend 32K on a Mini. Mine was 26. You don't need the JCW package, you don't need the fancy leather...it's a small hatch. Equip it like one.

I agree. That was just a "check the boxes" excercise. FYI, no leather on my config above.

[FC]

Originally Posted by ff

...you'd better be willing to keep the car forever.

We would regardless.

[equ]

Originally Posted by rwg

In particular, I like ff's comment about how MINI resale is going to tank (evidence please? everything I have read and experienced says the opposite) and equ's comment about the MINI not being any more fun to drive then the Civic Si - umm - ok, if you say so.

The last gen Si actually has more space than a 3er sedan, forget the mini. The interior doesn't hurt my eyes, just a bit of red stitching & alcantara and very supportive seats. The NA 160hp engine is vastly superior to the last gen MCS. It's smoothness is like that of a bmw I-6. It is more reliable (and yes it has great resale as well).

But, it is not made by the ultimate marketing gods, thus it must automatically be less fun to drive.

[lemming]

Originally Posted by equ

The last gen Si actually has more space than a 3er sedan, forget the mini. The interior doesn't hurt my eyes, just a bit of red stitching & alcantara and very supportive seats. The NA 160hp engine is vastly superior to the last gen MCS. It's smoothness is like that of a bmw I-6. It is more reliable (and yes it has great resale as well).

But, it is not made by the ultimate marketing gods, thus it must automatically be less fun to drive.

i understand your POV, equ and it's a fair point.

the only thing i'd continue to point out to you is that on an objective, quantifiable level, the MCS actually performs as advertised. as is from Car and Driver's 2007 Lightning Lap:

"With the least power and straight-line speed among the entries this time, it’s not surprising that the Mini Cooper S turned the slowest lap time of 3:22.9. But that’s still a good bit faster than the times we extracted from the Volkswagen GTI (3:25.1), Honda Civic Si (3:26.5), and Mazda MX-5 (3:29.3) last year. Furthermore, the Cooper S turned its laps with style.
The Mini’s steering is on the heavy side, but the car turns in eagerly and accurately. It also has an exceptionally responsive degree of lift-throttle oversteer that helps to position the car, providing a driver has developed sufficient sensitivity in his right foot. A limited-slip differential to reduce wheelspin from the inside tire would help acceleration from slow-speed corners, but overall, the Mini is a willing and satisfying player on the track."

we cannot argue over subjectivity, but objectively, there's the data. if you choose to discount it, as always, that's for you to do.

[John V]

Does Honda still insist on hobbling the Civic Si with horrible tires?

The lightning lap is interesting but not a particularly good indication of a car's inherent "goodness." Which is why I always question certain folks' obsession with lap times. They don't tell the whole picture.

[lemming]

Originally Posted by John V

Does Honda still insist on hobbling the Civic Si with horrible tires?

The lightning lap is interesting but not a particularly good indication of a car's inherent "goodness." Which is why I always question certain folks' obsession with lap times. They don't tell the whole picture.

i use it simply to demonstrate that, the MINI also being on horrible tires and this one in question not even equipped with the LSD unit --is more than a cutesy appliance.

i'm trying to demonstrate a person's limits of logic without resorting to namecalling or being a complete jackass.

[equ]

(I will ignore Lem's last comment.)

I grant that an MCS may be more fun to drive than a Civic Si. I will add that given the much greater space (esp. in last gen Si), the smooth Honda nature, better ride, much lower cost and better expected reliability, the Si is the better buy for me.

Sort of like, the Elise is likely a sharper, "more fun when playing" car than the Cayman S. I haven't driven one, but based on reviews and weight numbers, I have no problem with that statement. But I can drive to Boston in comfort in the latter but not in the former, they're about the same price and the latter holds it own on the track not too shabbily. Hence for me, it is the better car.

My gf puts 75 miles a day on her 02 Si, and frankly, on balance, I think that car is *better* than the 06 e90 which cost us four times as much. Neither of us were honda fans before and frankly few other cars in their line-up appeal to us (of course the s2k). But if everyone in this board is going for an MCS without even considering an Si for daily driving, it is the success of marketing (colors, options, "motoring", etc. etc.). The honda image seems to give people problems, JST said as much.

BTW, this is a really neat article:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/1...t_handling_car

It's nice to see that whenever I find the cayman ridiculously comfortable that I'm not out of my mind and that it can be measured objectively... I love the detailed data in this article, and yes it convinced me that an MCS+some kit can be very fun to drive.

[lemming]

Originally Posted by equ

(I will ignore Lem's last comment.)

I grant that an MCS may be more fun to drive than a Civic Si. I will add that given the much greater space (esp. in last gen Si), the smooth Honda nature, better ride, much lower cost and better expected reliability, the Si is the better buy for me.

Sort of like, the Elise is likely a sharper, "more fun when playing" car than the Cayman S. I haven't driven one, but based on reviews and weight numbers, I have no problem with that statement. But I can drive to Boston in comfort in the latter but not in the former, they're about the same price and the latter holds it own on the track not too shabbily. Hence for me, it is the better car.

My gf puts 75 miles a day on her 02 Si, and frankly, on balance, I think that car is *better* than the 06 e90 which cost us four times as much. Neither of us were honda fans before and frankly few other cars in their line-up appeal to us (of course the s2k). But if everyone in this board is going for an MCS without even considering an Si for daily driving, it is the success of marketing (colors, options, "motoring", etc. etc.). The honda image seems to give people problems, JST said as much.

BTW, this is a really neat article:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/1...t_handling_car

It's nice to see that whenever I find the cayman ridiculously comfortable that I'm not out of my mind and that it can be measured objectively... I love the detailed data in this article, and yes it convinced me that an MCS+some kit can be very fun to drive.

i was responding more to the fact that you were apparently pissing all over Plaz's decision and as far as i can recall, no one really does that sort of thing --esp. to you. ergo, i was questioning your logic and the veracity of your blanket statement.

[FC]

Originally Posted by clyde

There appears to be only pair of pants in that family...

Yeah, that's what it is.

[lemming]

Originally Posted by FC

Yeah, that's what it is.

i've seen your house, dude.

i've even met your dog.

just ignore.

you're doing just fine.