Fuck Tesla

[clyde]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1417593502351826946

I'll score this as a point (probably more than just one) in Tesla's and Musk's favor.

In all the prior discussion here about proprietary charging networks vs standardized, I think I said I would be supportive of Tesla opening their Supercharger network to others. I think others said, "Nah, they shouldn't," but I can't really remember.

[JST]

Originally Posted by clyde

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1417593502351826946

I'll score this as a point (probably more than just one) in Tesla's and Musk's favor.

In all the prior discussion here about proprietary charging networks vs standardized, I think I said I would be supportive of Tesla opening their Supercharger network to others. I think others said, "Nah, they shouldn't," but I can't really remember.

Building the Supercharger network is the best thing that Tesla has done. I really cannot overstate the difference between thinking about travel in a Tesla v. thinking about travel in literally any other EV. It's the one thing that is preventing me from seriously looking at a Mach E.

The Supercharger network is easy enough to use and ubiquitous enough that even a non-enthusiast/person who doesn't care about cars can set off on a multi-day road trip up the Eastern Shore and back to DC without really worrying too much about where to charge. I say this based on personal experience. You wouldn't be able to do the same (yet) with anything that isn't a Tesla.

Read that Car and Driver piece on the EV race and contrast the experience the Tesla drivers had with everyone else.

Does that cut in favor or against making the Supercharger network open to other EVs? I guess it depends on whether you are trying to sell Teslas. I certainly wouldn't do it if I were Musk, but maybe he's got a plan/access to data that I don't; maybe he figures that by doing a deal like this he can get access to cash to build out more chargers, either from governments or otherwise.

[ZBB]

Agree with JST.

Superchargers do use standard protocols for car communication. It’s just the US connector and authentication that is proprietary - and both are superior to other systems. In EU, Tesla uses the EU-version of the US SAE Combo connector (different shape called Menekes). The authentication is literally seamless - no RFID card/phone tap to enable, which is just part of what makes all the other networks a pain. Tesla just charges the card on file…

Early on Tesla (circa 2013), Tesla offered the SC network to other automakers but there were no takers. But it sounds like Tesla will open up the EU network to other cars — most likely by allowing them to create a Tesla account and doing something for authentication. In the US, they may even sell an adapter to use to let other cars use SCs.

We just drove 1900 miles over the last 5 days from Houston to Boise through Moab (we spent a couple nights in Moab…). The Supercharger network is awesome. The route we took would have had charging gaps off the SC network — the Four Corners area is a weakness for Tesla, but doable — other networks are just not doable, unless you want to slow charge at an RV park). There were a couple of near-full Superchargers (we took the last of 6 slots in Trementon UT yesterday, and the 22-stall Waco Supercharger only had a 2-3 open slots when we arrived on Sat…). But we were the only ones charging at most of them.

[JST]

Originally Posted by ZBB

Agree with JST.

Superchargers do use standard protocols for car communication. It’s just the US connector and authentication that is proprietary - and both are superior to other systems. In EU, Tesla uses the EU-version of the US SAE Combo connector (different shape called Menekes). The authentication is literally seamless - no RFID card/phone tap to enable, which is just part of what makes all the other networks a pain. Tesla just charges the card on file…

Early on Tesla (circa 2013), Tesla offered the SC network to other automakers but there were no takers. But it sounds like Tesla will open up the EU network to other cars — most likely by allowing them to create a Tesla account and doing something for authentication. In the US, they may even sell an adapter to use to let other cars use SCs.

We just drove 1900 miles over the last 5 days from Houston to Boise through Moab (we spent a couple nights in Moab…). The Supercharger network is awesome. The route we took would have had charging gaps off the SC network — the Four Corners area is a weakness for Tesla, but doable — other networks are just not doable, unless you want to slow charge at an RV park). There were a couple of near-full Superchargers (we took the last of 6 slots in Trementon UT yesterday, and the 22-stall Waco Supercharger only had a 2-3 open slots when we arrived on Sat…). But we were the only ones charging at most of them.

I've been watching the deployment of other networks with interest. Here on the East Coast, they've definitely been growing, but there are still notable gaps. As I mentioned, the trip up the Eastern Shore would have been difficult using CCS. I recently drove to south central VA, charging in Lynchburg on the way down and Charlottesville on the way back; this route wouldn't have worked with CCS, though I could probably have modified it in a way that only added maybe an hour of driving. Still, that's a lot.

And the trips up to NYC and Atlantic City are still not really workable. NYC is better, but there are way fewer charging options than with Tesla. Atlantic City is...possibly doable, but it's really a dice roll.

Overall, the non-Tesla network is roughly where Tesla was in 2014. And while I told people in 2014 that you could make Tesla supercharging work in most cases (and I was right!), stepping backward in time 6 or 7 years would be a real chore.

And that doesn't address ZBB's other point, which is seamlessness and reliability. Tesla chargers are easy to find, easy to use, and (generally) work. When they aren't working, you know it. That's how a person with little or no patience with "figuring car stuff out" can confidently take off on a several day road trip in a Tesla. No pre-flight needed, really, not anymore. No fobs, no calling numbers to have charge sessions started, no frantic fumbling when the charger you picked is unexpectedly offline. Just get in the car and go.

Will opening the Tesla network bring that experience to all EVs? Or will it make that experience worse for Tesla drivers? I honestly don't know. If it's the former, then I am happy to share and hope that extra investment will bring the construction of even more chargers, and that Tesla will win out in terms of fast charging because it's built a better mousetrap.

At the same time, I can't help but worry that it will be the latter, and that we won't see investment on the Tesla network ramp quickly enough to accommodate other EVs.

I know Clyde has what seems like a moral objection to the proprietary standard Tesla has built, but I'll be blunt: it works. It's what has driven Tesla sales, and in that sense it is what has driven the EV revolution generally. And it would suck if, in trying to make it available more broadly, they broke it.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by JST

I know Clyde has what seems like a moral objection to the proprietary standard Tesla has built, but I'll be blunt: it works. It's what has driven Tesla sales, and in that sense it is what has driven the EV revolution generally. And it would suck if, in trying to make it available more broadly, they broke it.

I don't have an objection to the proprietary standard and I don't have an objection to Tesla doing anything to encourage others to adopt it in a manner that makes it the defacto standard and puts tons of money in its pocket (or Musks crypto of day choice). In fact, I'm reasonably confident I argued quite strongly for that on many an occasion.

My moral objection is to competing proprietary standards because they ultimately harm consumers and, in this special case of EVs, slow down the effective replacement of ICE with EVs. That latter part being societal necessity driven by increasingly exigent circumstances.

The argument was never from the lens of Tesla's proprietary charging nework is bad. It was always from the lens of "there must be an industry standard" for the good of us all.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by JST

Will opening the Tesla network bring that experience to all EVs? Or will it make that experience worse for Tesla drivers? I honestly don't know. If it's the former, then I am happy to share and hope that extra investment will bring the construction of even more chargers, and that Tesla will win out in terms of fast charging because it's built a better mousetrap.

Is it wrong to read that as though you've concluded that EV charging has come as far as it can possibly go? That there's not a better mousetrap yet to be built?

I mean, I have no idea. It feels like we're still in the infancy stage and the charging question has only reached the "good enough for now" state. That maybe somehow, six or seven years from now the state of charging in 2021 will prompt "I don't know how we lived with it," thoughts or feelings (and if not six or seven years, 12-14)?

[JST]

Originally Posted by clyde

Is it wrong to read that as though you've concluded that EV charging has come as far as it can possibly go? That there's not a better mousetrap yet to be built?

I mean, I have no idea. It feels like we're still in the infancy stage and the charging question has only reached the "good enough for now" state. That maybe somehow, six or seven years from now the state of charging in 2021 will prompt "I don't know how we lived with it," thoughts or feelings (and if not six or seven years, 12-14)?

No, I have no doubt that EV charging is going to go through several more evolutions over the next few years. We're nowhere close to what's needed to enable mass adoption.

And it may well be that a de jure standard is what's needed to get to that next phase, and that government support for charging also needs to happen behind that unified standard.

The problem is that seems basically infeasible in the near and medium term, politically, and in the absence of the prospect of that action, literally the only thing that has worked well is having one company take the reins and build a network. I'd just hate to see that really positive development get screwed up without an obvious, better step on the horizon.

[ZBB]

Originally Posted by JST

Overall, the non-Tesla network is roughly where Tesla was in 2014. And while I told people in 2014 that you could make Tesla supercharging work in most cases (and I was right!), stepping backward in time 6 or 7 years would be a real chore.

I’ve also been watching the build-out of other networks. I’d say Electrify America is closer to having Tesla’s 2016 footprint. There were more gaps in 2014 (we did our first Supercharging road trips in 2014 — and had to do quite a lot of flight planning, and had to charge for 4 hours at a Tesla store to get through one of the gaps in the network (Palm Springs at the time). By 2016, those big gaps were closed, and Electrify America seems to be at about that stage.

Originally Posted by clyde

Is it wrong to read that as though you've concluded that EV charging has come as far as it can possibly go? That there's not a better mousetrap yet to be built?

I mean, I have no idea. It feels like we're still in the infancy stage and the charging question has only reached the "good enough for now" state. That maybe somehow, six or seven years from now the state of charging in 2021 will prompt "I don't know how we lived with it," thoughts or feelings (and if not six or seven years, 12-14)?

I’ve now been driving Teslas for over 8 years — and have see “fast” charging come a long way. It will continue to get better, but there are diminishing returns — and I think the technology is close to getting to the “mature” stage. Going back in history, we have:

AC Charging:
4-7kW chargers used before Tesla (and still common on non-Tesla EVs). These add 10-25 miles of range per hour of charge — so take overnight to add 100-200 miles of range. This is the most common output of Public L2 chargers in most places (including hotels)

10-11 kW chargers that Tesla has used since the Model S. These add ~30 miles per hour in a Model S or X, and ~44 per hour in a Model 3 or Y. 6-8 hours to do a charge from 10% to 90% in most Teslas. This is what we have at home now.

DC Fast Charging:
CHAdeMO standard — used in Japan and brought to the US by Nissan for the Leaf. The only cars that use it are generally Nissans and a few other early Asian EVs. Tesla sells an adapter to use with a charger. Most CHAdeMO units you see in public now are limited to 50kW, but there are some as low as 25kW and the standard allows higher, and ElectrifyAmerica is rolling out 90kW versions. My only experience using them was with the Model S — and Tesla’s adapter caps output at about 44kW. This is OK, but still slow — our CHAdeMO stops were about 75-90 minutes each, and added 120 miles or so.

Superchargers: Tesla is now on their V3 design.
V1 - These were 120kW (Tesla has upgraded nearly all of these sites to either V2 or V3), although some early cars were limited to 90 or 105kW charging (my Model S 60 was capped at 105kW - a speed I only saw a couple times since that battery would start to taper at about 30% charge, so you had to be under 30% to see max output.). On that Model S, I added an average of just over 100 miles per Supercharge, and my average stop was just over 40 minutes.

V2 — These are 150kW Superchargers. I added 154 miles in 29 minutes at one stop in my Model 3. Another stop was 54 miles in 8 minutes.

V2 Urban 75kW Superchargers. There’s also a variant of the V2 chargers called “Urban Superchargers” — these max out at 75kW per car - normally 2 Supercharger stalls share charging equipment — so if you are the only car on the pair of stalls, you can charge up to the full output. If another car pulls in, it will get the remainder — starting with 10% of the output (and you get 90%). Then as your car tapers, the charger shares more output with the other car. Urban Superchargers just fix that split at 50% for each paired stall. The idea was that if you were shopping and plug in that you’d have be OK if the charge took a little bit longer. I’ve only ever used one of these — just the other day, and we were the only car there. It was a short stop — we were just adding an extra 30-40 miles of range after staying at a hotel without charging…

V3 — These are 250kW Superchargers. Fast. The car will say its charging at over 1000 miles per hour. I’ve only used a couple of them (they are less common, but seems to be what Tesla is installing at all new sites now). We stopped at one in Houston in June and it added over 100 miles in less than 10 minutes…

In the CCS world, you see various output of chargers. Electrify America has rolled out 350kW chargers — but the only car that can really take advantage of that is the Taycan. Most of the other EVs limit what can be accepted — the Mach E for example is capped at 150kW. Electrify America stations tend to have at least 2 different output chargers and sometimes 3. For example, their station in Boise has 1 90kW unit (that has both CHAdeMO and CCS connectors), and 3 350kW units. Their station near our old house in OH has one 50kW unit, a couple 150kW units and a couple 350kW units (and a total of 10 charging stalls…)

I think once more cars can get 350kW charging that this will mature. That should be able to do an 80% charge for a car with ~300 mile range in about 15 minutes…. Higher output will always be better, but I’m just worried about the infrastructure required…

[robg]

Thanks for the detailed post ZBB. From an outsiders perspective my concern is less about network coverage and more about reliability / ease of use. I don’t understand why so many 3rd party networks needlessly complicate things by requiring the use of an app. Why not just allow simple credit card transactions as you would at a gas pump? It seems that the hurdles and hiccups experienced with apps are well known and documented at this point. On a positive note, I believe Porsche (and maybe Ford) have recently implemented the plug and charge standard which basically alllows EA stations to function like tesla superchargers (automatically recigibzues the car and bills your account)


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[JST]

Originally Posted by robg

Thanks for the detailed post ZBB. From an outsiders perspective my concern is less about network coverage and more about reliability / ease of use. I don’t understand why so many 3rd party networks needlessly complicate things by requiring the use of an app. Why not just allow simple credit card transactions as you would at a gas pump? It seems that the hurdles and hiccups experienced with apps are well known and documented at this point. On a positive note, I believe Porsche (and maybe Ford) have recently implemented the plug and charge standard which basically alllows EA stations to function like tesla superchargers (automatically recigibzues the car and bills your account)


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My guess is that the adding the ability to do cc transactions is costly and maintenance intensive, and they probably also want to loop you into whatever their ecosystem is.

I'm no expert in POS technologies, but it seems like if they have a contactless reader for fobs (which at least chargepoint stations do, or did) they should be able to add similar capability for credit cards.

But, yes, the plug and charge standard Ford and Porsche are adopting is the way it should be done.