carmudgeons.com  

Go Back   carmudgeons.com > Automotive Forums > Car Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-06-2020, 09:12 PM   #21
clyde
Chief title editor
 
clyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 26,599
Lack of a manual transmission wouldn’t stop me from buying any new car today. If I have to buy a 2021 Camaro, I have to consider to the 10 speed auto the 1LE will be available with for the first time.

Given what driving in the real world is like these days, ascribing to “purity” or some such is silly. Drive by wire, brake by wire, electric steering, electric suspension doodads and every5ing else that makes a modern car a modern car leaves a manual transmission...about as useful as an appendix. Maybe less. Clinging to it is what leads to MAGA.

Modern cars are enjoyable for what they are, and that’s cool. A full on driving experience is better experienced with older cars. It’s more pure, it’s more visceral, it’s more connected (literally with rods, levers, and cables), it’s more fun. It may not be as fast, but it’s better.

Going gaga over multi-million dollar cars that can’t be used in any realistic setting in one post and lamenting the lack of manual transmissions in another is... weird from my perspective.
__________________
OH NOES!!!!!1 MY CAR HAS T3H UND3R5T33R5555!!!!!!1oneone!!!!11

Team WTF?!
What are you gonna do?
clyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2020, 09:29 PM   #22
Nick M3
Relic
 
Nick M3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 12,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by clyde View Post
Lack of a manual transmission wouldn’t stop me from buying any new car today. If I have to buy a 2021 Camaro, I have to consider to the 10 speed auto the 1LE will be available with for the first time.

Given what driving in the real world is like these days, ascribing to “purity” or some such is silly. Drive by wire, brake by wire, electric steering, electric suspension doodads and every5ing else that makes a modern car a modern car leaves a manual transmission...about as useful as an appendix. Maybe less. Clinging to it is what leads to MAGA.

Modern cars are enjoyable for what they are, and that’s cool. A full on driving experience is better experienced with older cars. It’s more pure, it’s more visceral, it’s more connected (literally with rods, levers, and cables), it’s more fun. It may not be as fast, but it’s better.

Going gaga over multi-million dollar cars that can’t be used in any realistic setting in one post and lamenting the lack of manual transmissions in another is... weird from my perspective.
Bah. A modern car can’t actually do the utility part of being a car any better than a car from 30 years ago.

When I can get a self driving car, I’ll be interested in a new car. Until then, at least old cars are mildly interesting to drive at speeds that have some relation to legality.
__________________
2011 M3
2006 Sierra 2500HD 4WD LBZ/Allison
2004 X5 3.0i 6MT
1995 M3 S50B32
1990 325is
1989 M3 S54B32

Hers:
1989 325iX
1996 911 Turbo


Nick M3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2020, 09:38 PM   #23
JST
195
 
JST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 24,593
Yeah sorry Clyde, but you’re wrong. In a world where all of the interactivity is being deleted, the answer isn’t “well, what good is the last vestige of interactivity, anyway?”

The problem, fundamentally, is that the virtue that ICE cars with flappy or auto gearboxes are chasing is smoothness, being in the right gear, anticipating what the driver needs...and EVs do that better. So if I can’t shift my own gears, why settle for a dim simulacrum of an EV, when I could just buy an EV instead?

I don’t understand sports cars with automatics. I just don’t. It’s stupid. There’s one reason to spend money on a sports car, and that is to have fun driving. An automatic is not fun. Or, more precisely, it removes one more potential fun vector. In a world where fun vectors have mostly dropped to zero, why give up the last one? And if you’re going to give up the last one, do it right and stop burning gas.
JST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2020, 11:38 PM   #24
FC
Solving problems
 
FC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: M5 / 718 GTS / Cooper S / GTI / LR4
Location: Metro Boston
Posts: 25,215
Yup. I’ll keep buying MTs until I can’t.
FC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2020, 12:28 AM   #25
clyde
Chief title editor
 
clyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 26,599
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M3 View Post
Bah. A modern car can’t actually do the utility part of being a car any better than a car from 30 years ago.

When I can get a self driving car, I’ll be interested in a new car. Until then, at least old cars are mildly interesting to drive at speeds that have some relation to legality.
We mostly agree. Newer cars are quieter, more comfortable, and more isolated. That allows them to execute their utility mission better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JST View Post
Yeah sorry Clyde, but you’re wrong. In a world where all of the interactivity is being deleted, the answer isn’t “well, what good is the last vestige of interactivity, anyway?”

The problem, fundamentally, is that the virtue that ICE cars with flappy or auto gearboxes are chasing is smoothness, being in the right gear, anticipating what the driver needs...and EVs do that better. So if I can’t shift my own gears, why settle for a dim simulacrum of an EV, when I could just buy an EV instead?

I don’t understand sports cars with automatics. I just don’t. It’s stupid. There’s one reason to spend money on a sports car, and that is to have fun driving. An automatic is not fun. Or, more precisely, it removes one more potential fun vector. In a world where fun vectors have mostly dropped to zero, why give up the last one? And if you’re going to give up the last one, do it right and stop burning gas.
As Nick just confirmed, this is wrong.

Whether you’re spewing CO2 from your tailpipe or the coal plant across town to make your car do stuff means as much as whether you pick your nose with your right hand or left. I don’t understand why Tesla owners try to shift every automotive discussion to that topic. Oh, wait, yes I do. It like the recovering addict that tries to shift every discussion about everything to addiction. Except backwards, I guess. But, we’ll just call the red herring what it is, a misdirection to avoid reality.

A manual transmission is not a last vestige of interactivity. It’s a misplaced mechanical chore that served its purpose, but has remained stuck behind in time while everything else got so much better the whole thing kinda sucks because of it.

Here I am behind a fun sucking Escape driver idling off the line after the red light went green. This shifting thing is blast.

Here I am stuck behind another Camry going 32 mph in a 35 zone on a two lane road again. Sure glad I have that manual transmission to interactively, um, interactive myself.

Oh boy, stuck behind three vehicles in a tight echelon left formation all moving at the exact same speed again. That manual transmission sure is coming in handy.

Look at that, no one in front of me...just speed cameras every 50 yards. Shifting myself is super helpful here. Wait, wait, ow the road is clear, no cameras, some nice turns... Hmm, too much power in second gear. Keep breaking the tires loose (because, you know, DSC off motherfucker, because I’m a real driver and don’t need those bullshit nannies). And plenty of fucking flat line characterless torque in third gear to accelerate with punch...but getting to fourth gear is just too fast to be worth it.

This manual transmission thing. Yeah, it just fucking rocks in modern cars!

You’re right. I’m wrong. You convinced me.

Wait. This is my brain. This is my brain after smoking the manual transmission crackpipe for 30 some years.

The manual transmission’s time is over. Desperately clinging to a shifter is willful ignorance of the present.
__________________
OH NOES!!!!!1 MY CAR HAS T3H UND3R5T33R5555!!!!!!1oneone!!!!11

Team WTF?!
What are you gonna do?
clyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2020, 01:00 AM   #26
lemming
Western Anomaly
 
lemming's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Carmudgeonly Ride: White Orca
Posts: 16,582
Quote:
Originally Posted by clyde View Post
We mostly agree. Newer cars are quieter, more comfortable, and more isolated. That allows them to execute their utility mission better.



As Nick just confirmed, this is wrong.

Whether you’re spewing CO2 from your tailpipe or the coal plant across town to make your car do stuff means as much as whether you pick your nose with your right hand or left. I don’t understand why Tesla owners try to shift every automotive discussion to that topic. Oh, wait, yes I do. It like the recovering addict that tries to shift every discussion about everything to addiction. Except backwards, I guess. But, we’ll just call the red herring what it is, a misdirection to avoid reality.

A manual transmission is not a last vestige of interactivity. It’s a misplaced mechanical chore that served its purpose, but has remained stuck behind in time while everything else got so much better the whole thing kinda sucks because of it.

Here I am behind a fun sucking Escape driver idling off the line after the red light went green. This shifting thing is blast.

Here I am stuck behind another Camry going 32 mph in a 35 zone on a two lane road again. Sure glad I have that manual transmission to interactively, um, interactive myself.

Oh boy, stuck behind three vehicles in a tight echelon left formation all moving at the exact same speed again. That manual transmission sure is coming in handy.

Look at that, no one in front of me...just speed cameras every 50 yards. Shifting myself is super helpful here. Wait, wait, ow the road is clear, no cameras, some nice turns... Hmm, too much power in second gear. Keep breaking the tires loose (because, you know, DSC off motherfucker, because I’m a real driver and don’t need those bullshit nannies). And plenty of fucking flat line characterless torque in third gear to accelerate with punch...but getting to fourth gear is just too fast to be worth it.

This manual transmission thing. Yeah, it just fucking rocks in modern cars!

You’re right. I’m wrong. You convinced me.

Wait. This is my brain. This is my brain after smoking the manual transmission crackpipe for 30 some years.

The manual transmission’s time is over. Desperately clinging to a shifter is willful ignorance of the present.

I would be as guilty as most for overthinking things.

But I know transmission choice is a subjective thing. Like styling. Or brands.

It appeals to me more when you call it an anachronism actually. There’s no logic for a sports car in our crowded first world lives. Why would a manual have anything to do with logic?

Why are handwoven rugs more expensive than machine made?

Why do some people buy handmade anything when 3D printers and robotics are more precise and superior? There are a lot of dumb choices in the world.

A manual seems less dumb than a lot of them at least.
__________________


lemming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2020, 07:04 AM   #27
JST
195
 
JST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 24,593
Like lemming says, literally all the arguments you make aren’t against manual transmissions—they are against deriving fun from driving in general, and certainly from any kind of “high performance” or “sports” car. Those are the real anachronisms in the picture you paint.

As for pollution shifting from EVs—I’m pretty sure you know that’s wrong and are just trolling me, but I agree it’s not a necessary point to debate in this thread.
JST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2020, 08:23 AM   #28
clyde
Chief title editor
 
clyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 26,599
Quote:
Originally Posted by clyde View Post
Here I am behind a fun sucking Escape driver idling off the line after the red light went green. This shifting thing is blast.

Here I am stuck behind another Camry going 32 mph in a 35 zone on a two lane road again. Sure glad I have that manual transmission to interactively, um, interactive myself.

Oh boy, stuck behind three vehicles in a tight echelon left formation all moving at the exact same speed again. That manual transmission sure is coming in handy.

Look at that, no one in front of me...just speed cameras every 50 yards. Shifting myself is super helpful here. Wait, wait, ow the road is clear, no cameras, some nice turns... Hmm, too much power in second gear. Keep breaking the tires loose (because, you know, DSC off motherfucker, because I’m a real driver and don’t need those bullshit nannies). And plenty of fucking flat line characterless torque in third gear to accelerate with punch...but getting to fourth gear is just too fast to be worth it.

This manual transmission thing. Yeah, it just fucking rocks in modern cars!
I neglected to include a a few things like clutch delay valves and specific unnatural drive by wire features that work directly against manual transmissions like rev hang, pre-programmed throttle response when approaching stall speed that are the exact opposite of what you want, inability to increase/decrease RPM freely with the clutch disengaged or transmission in neutral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemming View Post
I would be as guilty as most for overthinking things.

But I know transmission choice is a subjective thing. Like styling. Or brands.

It appeals to me more when you call it an anachronism actually. There’s no logic for a sports car in our crowded first world lives. Why would a manual have anything to do with logic?

Why are handwoven rugs more expensive than machine made?

Why do some people buy handmade anything when 3D printers and robotics are more precise and superior? There are a lot of dumb choices in the world.

A manual seems less dumb than a lot of them at least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JST View Post
Like lemming says, literally all the arguments you make aren’t against manual transmissions—they are against deriving fun from driving in general, and certainly from any kind of “high performance” or “sports” car. Those are the real anachronisms in the picture you paint.

As for pollution shifting from EVs—I’m pretty sure you know that’s wrong and are just trolling me, but I agree it’s not a necessary point to debate in this thread.
What I'm saying has nothing to do with logic or railing against anachronisms. It also has nothing to do with sports cars. Up the thread, people are lamenting the loss of manual transmission availability in the Honda Accord.

What I'm saying is that today's cars have become so clinically "good" at everything else that manual transmissions no longer inherently make driving experiences better and that when combined with nearly all real world driving situations, they actively make them worse experiences.

Let's review Nick's statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M3 View Post
old cars are mildly interesting to drive at speeds that have some relation to legality.
(I would use "reality" in place of "legality" to change the scope's shape, but close enough.)

This is the essence of what I'm saying.

If I want involvement or engagement, if I want to feel a mechanical connection, if I want to be able to enjoy the character of a car's performance delivery, if I want to experience some sort of positive emotion based on the thing I'm attached to in the worst of driving situations, if I want to improve the most mundane driving scenario into a pleasure trip...give me a car made before 2000 (perhaps a handful of stragglers after that) with three mechanically connected pedals beneath my feet and and a stubby shifter under my right hand, because that's where it's at.

Stubbornly clutching onto manual transmissions in modern cars because of what manual transmission used to be and what they used to do for the driving experience is not being contrarian, anachronistic, individualistic, or principled. It's just being stubborn. That is the essence of the philosophy behind a certain acronym that I cannot say at this hour (yes, that's a little bit of a troll, but it's also truthy enough that in your most objective moments, you know is also not without merit).

Pining for manual transmissions in today's crop of new cars is praying to a false god that when answered is answered in a "be careful what you wish for" kind of way.
__________________
OH NOES!!!!!1 MY CAR HAS T3H UND3R5T33R5555!!!!!!1oneone!!!!11

Team WTF?!
What are you gonna do?
clyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2020, 09:27 AM   #29
Nick M3
Relic
 
Nick M3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 12,438
DBW throttles *can* be quite good. They just usually are programmed horribly from the factory. The E46 and E90 M3s are good examples of this.

Modern cars suck to drive with a manual because, for the most part, they are not designed to be enjoyable with a manual because no one buys them. It's a vicious circle. That doesn't mean that you can't choose to make a modern car that's delightful to drive with a manual. It just means that almost no one bothers.

So, you're right that I wouldn't particularly care about a manual offering in nearly any modern car. There's a reason why I don't own any. But the answer to the statement "all modern cars are absolutely miserable to drive" shouldn't be "give up on the hope that you'll ever get to enjoy driving a new car ever again."
__________________
2011 M3
2006 Sierra 2500HD 4WD LBZ/Allison
2004 X5 3.0i 6MT
1995 M3 S50B32
1990 325is
1989 M3 S54B32

Hers:
1989 325iX
1996 911 Turbo


Nick M3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2020, 09:41 AM   #30
JST
195
 
JST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 24,593
idk. We may just have different opinions on this. I've only ever driven one car that was worse -- meaning less fun to drive, to me -- in its manual incarnation, and that's the Mercedes SLK. In every other circumstance, even in boring cars, even in pedestrian cars, the manual makes the experience more interesting, and I prefer it.

Add to that my belief that if manuals die in "pedestrian" cars they'll die everywhere, and my lamenting the loss of the Accord Sport 6M is totally logical. Plus, even if the Accord Sport has a weak suspension, fixing the suspension is a lot easier than retrofitting a whole new body, and if I want a four door manual, what other choices do I have at this point?

Anyway. It's fine if you don't want to drive a manual boring car. It's fine if you are ok with a (shudder) automatic Camaro. That's cool. I'm not. I don't like those things anymore than I want a big plate of crabs for dinner (ugh). And it has nothing to do with Trump, or MAGA, or whatever.
JST is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Forums © 2003-2008, 'Mudgeon Enterprises - Site hosting by AYN & Associates, LLC