M3 or RS3?
 

I've been quick to dismiss the RS3 for it's lack of manual, transverse engine layout, and general non-BMW-ness, but it is $10K cheaper, and it's AWD. And given its projected year-round around town use, that's a huge plus. In real life, it may well be much faster than an M3. Reviews claim it is more fun and faster than an M2.

It also sounds good and it's smaller. It's newer. And I can still do ED next year. In fact, I could wait until the following year - something I cannot do with the BMW because it ends production next year.

The big issue is the lack of manual.

Thoughts?

If it's the same DSG whatevertheycallit (and programming) that is in the GTI, no thanks (and I'm the guy who likes SMG.)

That's a definite needs a test drive kind of thing to figure out tho....

Yeah, no doubt.

I really like everything about that car. Size, engine, looks. But yeah the lack of a manual kills it. What's the MSRP with the options you want?

58-61k if I choose the fancy-pants dash. MSRP.

An M3 would be 71-76K MSRP depending if I go stripper or full fancy-pants.

But the Audi would see ~5% off whereas the M3 would be more like 9%.

The problem with the Audi DSG is that it's so good that you just leave it in D 99% of the time. The good thing is that if you don't mind giving up the *pleasure* of driving manual, it's pretty fucking great.

I mean, for me the auto/DSG makes it a non-starter. And as much as I like my Golf, I have a hard time believing that you can make that platform as rewarding as a true RWD car.

But, yeah, I'd say you have to drive one to see how much the DSG bums you out.

Well, it's likely to lose out because of the lack of MT.

I drove a DSG GTI and I liked it as an automatic. But I just like to shift my own damn gears and I've said before, I feel it's matter of time before I'll even have the option.

I need to drive them (ideally back-to-back but that will be hard).

I'm pretty damn intrigued by the RS3 as well.

why is the M2 not a option, number of doors?


If you test drive one see if it auto upshifts near redline. That bugs me since I want full control if driving an auto:?

Recent review of the RS3 I read made the handling sound pretty fun. Quattro or audi sport or whatever they are called seems to have tuned the haldex pretty good.

Yup. I need a sedan. Otherwise I'd never have sold the Turbo.

Yeah it's that kind of thing that bothers me about non-manuals; eventually they seem to want to take over.

Same with skipping gears up or down, or just disengaging the drivetrain with the clutch. Or one I heard about the F8X: You cannot put the car in neutral without starting it (??!!!). What if it's dead and needs to be towed?!

Meh. If you have a car that can shift faster than you can think about it, why wouldn't you want auto-upshift? It's not like SMGII, where you don't want it to shift without your consent because it'll get confused.

I mean, put me firmly in the manual is more fun bracket, but a good DCT transmission shouldn't try to be manual for the sake of wanting too much control.

There has been turns in auto-x/tracks in which I want to hold the gear and potentially bounce of rev limiter. So I want to make the decision whether to upshift or not. Auto is for auto upshifting IMHO

I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want to upshift in a DCT car. Bouncing off the rev limiter is destabilizing and slow. The logic of “upshifting will destabilize the car and it takes too long to downshift shortly after” no longer applies.

good points , also upshifting got it the lagging/low torque of the powerband. But guess I need to own one but still do not see the harm of allowing full control in manual mode, Porsche and BMW do as far as I know.

I'm a big fan of the RS3 and from driving my son's A3 I really think it is an amazing car so the RS3 has to be worlds better !! We have 2 cars with the S-tronic transmission and the shifts are instantaneous ... it is a REALLY great transmission but OTOH there is no manual available which I know is a downside for you.

I think you might want to drive one first to see how the S tronic is programmed which I'm sure is more aggressive than our A3 & A ... my brother has the DCT in his E93 M3 and it engages like a manual. It has some hesitation and bumping around which IMO makes it fun.

Is the Alfa 4 door available in a manual ... it might be something to consider.

Sadly, no. But quality seems highly suspect and it's even more money than the M3.

So, four door requirement is really a damper on fun car choices. Is it a straw dog?

Because, I'll bet you can't beat the M2 or M240 for fun, and they do seat 4, with manual transmissons available.

You could probably even replace the Miata, if you got an M240 convertible.

A sedan is a must and non-negotiable.

This is how we end up buying cars we don't love. And then selling them 2 years later...

I've always loved my sedans. Kept my last one for 6 years and didn't really want to sell it. had I bought the E90 I wanted, I may still have it.

I always prefer the sedan over the coupe version, aka m3 vs m4. But after having two coupes they are not that bad with kids. A 2 seat coupe would not work for me.

Isn't that the truth! :lol:

Interesting option, front tires larger then rear

Didn't Pontiac have a front drive V8 full size car with that option in the 80's? It was a sport something or other.

I'm pretty sure they had that in the 2000s. I don't see a problem with it. FWD/AWD cars tend to need to be set up for oversteer. If you've got more weight up front, why not put more tire there?

I put wider front tires on the Mazdaspeed3. It actually does reduce understeer with no downside that I can perceive.

Pontiac did indeed do this with one of the versions of the Grand Prix in the 2000s. Might have been the one they put a V8 into right before the platform went away.

Are you sure that's not a typo ?

No, read it in an article so looked it up on audiusa. The reason is what Nick stated above.

I read it in a review as well and figured they were quoting audi's website when describing the Audi dynamic package (or whatever it is called).

Looking at the car in the article it looks like the rear wheels have a lower profile than the fronts.

I would be really surprised to find out Audi which typically on there S models are rear wheel bias had wider and lower profile front wheels.

RS3 has a transverse engine with haldex awd like golf r so fwd biased. S4 has a longitudinal engine with rear biased awd*.

*not sure about the latest one. Might have ultra Quattro.

So you think it's not a typo ? That is going to look really strange with wider lower profile tires on the front :ack:

It's only like 5mm of sidewall height difference. I doubt you'll notice

The Golf R & RS3 are mechanical twins. The RS3 has the Audi badge (which is something, e.g. potentially better dealership experience). The Golf R has a better price, a manual option and arguably better practicality. I'm not sure I get why three-box form is so necessary, but you may prefer the looks, or too many hatchbacks in the family or???

Wait, I think it's the S3 that's the mechanical twin of the R. The RS3 has the more powerful 5 cylinder turbo.

Oh sorry, my bad. True on the S3. Which I drove when it first launched prior to my S4 purchase. RS3 must be in a different league (as is the M3).

Carry on.

(P.S. I still think Golf R or APR tuned GTI are sweet spots - especially if you are willing to be in a front-based car)

I should lose my 'mudgeons card if I'm mixing up RS3 and S3. To be honest, I'm hardly following these newest hi-po models, they're not of much interest to me.

Well, the news today of the M3 loosing its CF shaft really bothers me.

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/08/11/...r-driveshafts/

Frankly, and I know this is stupid, I'm probably putting WAY too much weight on the ED part of the purchase. As I mentioned on my previous waffling thread, I should just get a GTI/R and be done with it.

I'm with you. I can't be bothered to follow what is coming out. I can't seem to connect with anything. Maybe I just like the stuff I have too much.