Tesla Model S waffling
 

There are a bunch of threads on Teslas, but none of them really get down to one of this board's favorite activities...

Time to start waffling about getting a Model S, so I stopped by the Tesla showroom today. I want one.

The attendants* said that the current deposit to delivery timing is currently 2-4 months depending on config. *Can't say sales people since Tesla isn't licensed as a dealership in AZ... Downside is that they also can't give test drives, so I'm going to have to figure out how to test one.

Some observations from sitting in the floor model:

Its a big car -- very similar in length, hight and wheelbase to a Panamera (all within 1-2 inches), although the Tesla is about 6 inches narrower. I'm using a Panamera for comparison since I had one for an overnight loaner in Jan, so i can visualize a car that size -- and it will just fit in our (rather small) garage...

The touchscreen is HUGE. 17" diagonal. Very nicely done -- immediate response and the graphics are nice. Nearly all controls are via the screen -- Audio, Nav, HVAC, lights, sunroof, door locks, frunk and hatch openers, etc. Probably will take some getting used to, although I don't think it will be a huge issue since the HVAC controls are in a fixed location and there are steering wheel audio controls.

Sitting in the car feels very open. Feels almost minimalistic -- about the only physical switches not driving-related are the window switches on the door, an a glove box switch. There is no central tunnel, and the floor is flat. My 6 year old daughter was with me and she got in the driver's door, then moved over to the passenger seat.

I didn't even notice until writing this that there is no CD slot -- the optical era is definitely over. The Model S instead has internet streaming audio instead (although I can't find any information on the cost of internet service...). There are 2 USB ports by the power outlet, and it does Bluetooth A2DP, along with AM, FM, XM and onboard MP3 storage...

Interior materials have a high-quality feel. Nice steering wheel (felt similar to the BMW M wheel circa the E46 era -- thick, almost puffy, soft leather). The rear view mirror is unique in that the mirror goes right to the edge -- there is no plastic bezel like you see in most mirrors today. I'm pretty certain that the stalks (turn signal and cruise control) and gear selector are provided by Daimler and from the Mercedes parts bin...

The frunk is larger than the Boxster's, although not as deep.

The door latches are electric. The motorized/retractible handle has a capacitative sensor to open the door -- so you pull and the handle doesn't move, but you hear an electric motor release the door, then the door opens. Probably overkill, and likely something that will break. No wonder they are already having problems.

Now I need to see about how to get a test drive...

about time someone on this board gets one:cool:

A realistic seeming review on jalopnik:

http://yaro.kinja.com/tesla-model-s-...-nyc-247403829

Even as a wonder, why get get version 1.0? See comments on user interface.

It's a very cool car, and I'm really glad someone is building it, and perhaps more importantly, that someone is building the infrastructure necessary to support it, but oh boy does it sound like it has a number of issues.

Quoted from equ's linked review. What does the bolded portion mean?

Thanks for sharing the link...

That's my only reservation. However, the Model S could be considered version 2.0 -- considering that the battery/charging/drive system in the Roadster was 1.0.

As for the UI, it is a v1 product, although Tesla has it versioned starting a 4.0 (and current cars now have 4.2, with 4.3 apparently imminent*). Not all of that guys comments seem to matter quite that much -- more like nice to have vs basic requirements.

* 4.3 includes the ability to schedule the charging start time -- and its geofenced. So basically you plug the car in when you get home, but the car waits to start charging until the specified time. Allows you to take advantage of time-based rate plans, which we already have at our house (we pay 5.77¢ per kWh off-peak vs 17.89¢ on peak in the summer; with winter rates of 5.56¢ off peak and 14.53¢ on peak -- peak is 9am to 9pm)

Sounds like he got a speeding ticket and the database used to enter the ticket into the in-car computer did not have "Model S" as an option under Tesla -- so he selected "other"...

Yeah--I'd like one, but am I ready to own (and spend 90K on) a car that might leave me stranded and for which I am (charitably) a cooperative development partner? It sounds interesting, but I suspect I would be cursing it/smashing it with a sledgehammer the first time I needed to be at the airport and the car wouldn't unhook from the charger.

Also, how are Teslas in the heat? Have they had range issues like the Leaf?

Liquid cooled battery pack on the Tesla.

Leaf has no cooling...

I likely won't put a deposit down for another couple months... will give me time to back out if there are horror stories here this summer...

Got it.

Maybe it's a lack of caffeine this morning, but I find this guy's prose really difficult to read.

Because $90k traditional internal combustion engine powered German cars have never left their owners stranded? So what? You call roadside assistance, wait a little bit and get on with your day. If it was likely to happen often, that's one thing, but what we seem to be seeing and hearing about is an occasional stranding...perhaps a little more often than other cars, but is it really enough?

But here's a question: when you're 70 years old ("you" here applies to any of us), do you want to be telling your grandchildren about the time you had the first generation electric super sedan? Or do you want to tell them you were a pussy and afraid that it may one day leave you stuck in a parking lot like any other car could have?

Being on the bleeding edge has its downsides, but it's a fun ride. One worth taking when possible.

Clyde makes a good point.

And they are not all $90k. Base price is $52k if you can live with the small battery and no options. My configs are $60k or $70k, with the only difference being the small or medium battery.

And since I'd spend ~$200 per month less on gas vs charging, that really makes it comparable to purchasing a car that costs $10-15k less. I just built a comparably spec'd 335 -- and its $52-55k (depending on base, sport or m-sport). So we're talking the same ballpark here...

I can't live with the small battery. And I appreciate Clyde's points, but (knock wood) I can't remember when a car has stranded me, and the issues that Teslas are experiencing are far bigger PITA than any of us on this board would put up with from a "normal" car.

You never owned a Saab.

Just posting a few pics I took when there. Not the greatest quality.

But the shot through the hatch gives a good perspective of just how large that screen is...

I was driving my Mom's '92 Saab 900S cab when the transmission gave out -- and it was a manual (clutch was fine...). Completely lost first gear in a very remote part of AZ (just south of Canyon de Chelly). Second gear held up most of the way back to Phoenix (about a 5 hour drive), but once we hit the city, it gave out too. Had to get through a bunch of stop lights over the last ~10 miles by trying to time the lights and hoping we wouldn't have to stop, but I hit a couple of reds and had to start in 3rd -- with lots of clutch odor...

I'm paying attention to the Model S issues. I'm also going to talk to some owners, and Motoman will let me know when he gets one scheduled...

"Menlo Park Camry." :lol:


http://daddytypes.com/2013/01/24/fru...la_model_x.php

OK... So I'm in full peseveration mode regarding the Tesla. I've priced up different specs, done research on range, and looked at ongoing operating cost. Now I just need to find a way to get a test drive -- but I either need to make a trip to CA (or another state where Tesla doesn't have a dealer licensing issue), or find an owner willing to give a quick ride (which is possible -- some of the local owners have public offers posted on the TMC forum).

Even without a test drive, I'm considering putting down a deposit relatively soon. The spec I'm leaning towards has a roughly 4 month lead time, so that would mean delivery in late summer if I put a deposit down sometime in March.

So, here's my perseveration thoughts as of now. My financial model shows that either the small (40kWh) or medium (60kWh) batteries would result in savings vs what I've paid for cars over the last 5 years -- between $150 and $350 per month. The large 80kWh battery would result in about the same as I pay today -- so technically all 3 are viable (the Performance 85kWh is out though...). I'm leaning towards the medium battery.

Range thoughts:
There are a few things to keep in mind. The range Tesla advertises is based on driving 55 MPH on a flat road -- basically an "ideal" range. The EPA 5 cycle test come in about 89-90% of the ideal range. On top of that, Tesla offers 2 charging modes -- "Normal" and "Range". Normal charge helps maintain life of the battery, but only charges to 90%. Range mode will charge to 100% (or just shy...). Real world range seems to be impacted by speed, elevation changes, temperature (cold...) and even headwinds -- so the EPA ratings are not always achievable. To avoid range anxiety, my thought is to consider 66% of the EPA range as the "real world" range -- basically it leaves enough in reserve to make sure there is enough range in reserve to find a charger.

40kWh range is 160 miles "ideal". The EPA rating for this one is not out yet (the small battery goes into production this month) -- but it will likely come in around 145 miles. Regular charge mode (ie 90%) is 131 miles, and 66% would mean a real-world range of ~86-96 miles (remember -- that would allow for a bit of reserve). Based on this -- I think the 40kWh is out since it would only give enough range for commuting (~60 miles round trip) and in-town driving. Even then, I could see needing to use public chargers around town on occasion. It would not have enough range for even a short in-state weekend trip.

60kWh range is 230 miles "ideal". The EPA rating is 208 miles, so regular charge mode would be 187 miles. The real-world range would be 123-137 miles -- so would allow for commuting and in-town driving without needing to worry about finding a public charger that often. In-state weekend trips would be feasible. One of the local owners did a road trip to Las Vegas with a 60kWh, although it did take charging stops in Kingman. Supercharging is optional on this model -- which could make trips to LA feasible once the Superchargers go live (since this battery could get a full charge in just about an hour).

The 85kWh range is 300 miles "ideal", EPA 265. Regular charge mode is 239, and real-world range is 158-175. I think this model only makes sense if I routinely drove over 150 miles -- but I don't.

Since I'm leaning towards the 60kWh battery, I did some range circles on a map just to get a feel how far this represents from my house (I realize roads are not straight...). The attached pic has 4 circles -- going outside in:
- Red: The EPA max range of 208 miles
- Green: 90% of the EPA (i.e. a "normal" charge) range
- Yellow: 66% of the EPA range -- so allows for faster driving and reserve
- Green (solid): 59% of the EPA range -- this would be 2/3 of the "normal" charge and would be the normal commute-style range.

Charging options:
A regular 120V home outlet is basically insufficient (although it works for long-term parking to keep the battery topped off and allow the car to maintain the battery temp). Maybe 3 miles of range per hour of charging.

Home charging Option 1: Add a 240V 50 Amp "NEMA 14-50" outlet in our garage and charge with the mobile cable that comes with the car. This would cost <$500 and add about 31 miles of range per hour of charging. 2 hours charging per day for my normal commute and a full charge easily done overnight.

Home charging Option 2: Get a Tesla High Power Wall Connector installed. Gives a dedicated connector at home, so wouldn't have to use the mobile cable when at home. Tesla offers an optional 2nd charger on the car -- and this would use that. With 1 charger on the car, charging is the same speed as option 1. With 2 chargers, it will charge twice as fast. But this costs $1200 plus installation (easily $750+), although a tax credit is avail for up to $1k. The extra charger in the car is a $1500 option.

Public Level 2 chargers: Tesla includes an adaptor for the standard J1772 plug used on most public charging stations in the US. Same charge speed as Option 1. There are a few networks avail, and hundreds of these are now avail in AZ (although clustered in Phoenix/Tucson -- none in Flagstaff for example). Blink network seems to be the most common, and they have 3 chargers at my office parking garage).

Tesla Supercharger: High-power fast DC charging stations being set up by Tesla. Requires equipment on the car -- standard on 85, optional ($2k) on the 60, and not avail on the 40. Can charge the 85kWh battery in roughly an hour (although real-world reports are seeing about 50-70% of that). Unfortunately, none of these in AZ yet (there are only 7 sites so far -- 5 in CA and the 2 now infamous East Coast ones).

CHAdeMO charging: This is a Japanese standard fast DC charging station, and supported by the Leaf and Mitsubishi i. Doesn't charge as fast as a Supercharger, but can deliver 65kW per hour, and there are already 11 of these installed in the Phoenix area. BUT -- Tesla does not offer an adapter yet. They are apparently working on one for when they introduce the Model S to Japan -- but no word yet on if it will be offered for sale in the US, or cost. If they do, it likely would require the Supercharger hardware on the car. Would add a lot of flexibility.

RV parks also commonly have the NEMA 14-50 outlet -- so it seems many Model S owners have used them during road trips, especially between cities where there is a dearth of public charging stations.

Other Findings
Just a few random findings as I've done my research.

• Since Tesla is not a licensed dealer in AZ, this would be an out-of-state purchase. Tesla won't charge AZ sales tax and provides temporary CA plates.
• That means paying AZ tax (state portion only) at the DMV when registering (which goes down from 6.6% to 5.6% June 1); city use tax (1.45%) bill likely sent in the mail a few weeks later
• AZ has a significantly reduced vehicle license tax for full electric vehicles (basically a personal property tax on cars). <$30 per year for the Model S, vs over $500 per year for a comparably priced gas car (to start -- it goes down each year, but the Boxster is still about $300 per year)
• Its eligible for AZ's Alternative Fuel plate -- which allows access to the HOV lanes with only one driver.
• Charging at home would cost <$50 per month, vs the ~$200 I spend now on gas.

Anyway... I need to get a test drive. But I think I'm going to put an order in...

Put a deposit down now on what you think is your best guess spec. Then, make sure that's the spec you want, change if its not. Cancel anytime if you decide you don't a Tesla. Nothing to lose in the meantime, but the sooner your deposit is down, the sooner you get the car if you decide you want it (more or less).

That's kind of how I'm leaning.

But one thing to note -- the deposit is just a reservation for a production spot. You spec it about a month before production...

Very cool... when you say the Model S will be cheaper than your previous cars to run, what cars does that include?

My current '08 Boxster and previous '08 CTS. I ran the numbers against the Boxster, but the CTS payment was nearly identical, and it got similar mileage. The CTS maintenance cost was bit lower though...

I included loan payments, fuel cost, maintenance, and annual registration. I didn't include insurance -- but I don't think it will change significantly (the Boxster is slightly less than the CTS to insure)

I saw a Model S stopped at a light right by my office this morning - probably the same one I've seen 3 times now within a few blocks of the office.

It is white with tan interior and the panoramic roof. That's the same color combo I would order...

seem like they are everywhere nowadays. This one is probably too blingy for this board but I thought it looked good. Think it was P.85 as the version.

It would be interesting to know how insurance/repair costs stack up for a Tesla v a regular IC car.

There's a thread on TMC about insurance cost. Premiums seem to be all over the map -- speculation is that some companies underwrite by going high first, then bringing it down as they get a claim history, while others start low and increase premiums as they get actual cost experience. Another speculation is that Tesla is coming up a "exotic" -- probably because of the Roadster.

I did ask my insurer for a quote, but they don't have Tesla in their database. Kind of ironic since their name is "Electric Insurance". They did a quick quote based on the MSRP, and that indicated that insurance would be ~$300 higher annually (but our rates just dropped by that much for our current policy, so its really a wash from what I'm used to paying...).

My own speculation will be that it will be higher to insure since there is a very high Aluminum content -- including most of the structure (with high-strength steel in safety areas)...

Perhaps Fil can weigh in?

I take it there are no out of pocket maintenance expenses during the warranty other than maybe wipers and tires? Post warranty what other maintenance would there be (battery replacements aside)?

Actually, maintenance will be nearly identical to the Porsche. I've averaged $600 per year on the Boxster (its been in for 3 visits in 2.5 years -- one of which was a "major service")...

Tesla requires service inspections at 12 month or 12,500 mile intervals -- and they void the warranty if any are missed (although this may not hold up in many states...). They charge $600 each for these if done from a service center (one is opening in Scottsdale shortly), and $100 more if done by their "ranger" service (they come to you...). Similar coverage to the BMW "free" service (basically all wearable parts like wipers and brakes, except tires are excluded).

They also sell a pre-paid service plan -- 4 year / 50k miles. $1900 at a service center; $2400 for ranger. If you live someplace far from a service center, the ranger plan also includes unlimited ranger visits (which cost $100, even for warranty work without the plan)...

Info here: http://www.teslamotors.com/service

I like the sound of that "ranger" service. Would be great to not have to visit a dealership. I really can't stand service writers.

Apropos of which:

http://jalopnik.com/watch-a-tesla-mo...of-l-450994644

For most companies, they won't have any data for these cars in their system so it will default to "cost new" rating which essentially means it is rated based on original MSRP rather than specific claims history on that model. Eventually it'll catch up as they get more popular, but my gut tells me you'll get reasonable rates for a car that expensive.

And Electric is a small carrier. Out of curiosity, you might want to try getting a quote through a few larger carriers for your current car vs a Tesla to see what they say. Odds are the big guys are more likely to have their acts together which would suggest their rates will be higher. The small companies will likely treat it as a default model, or decline to write it at all.

I watched that this weekend...

I'll definitely get quotes from other carriers. I get an employee discount with Electric though, and have some other connections there through work...

I saw a dark gray (black?) one this morning in downtown DC driven by a boring looking middle aged dude and a dark red one this evening a few blocks from my house driven by a semi-hot soccer mom looking woman.

Hmm. That kind of rubs me the wrong way considering how electric cars have fewer wear and tear parts. I understand its a new design so they want to keep close tabs on things but in that case they should include the inspections in the cost of the car.

Didn't understand the BMW comparison so maybe I misunderstood something though? BMW includes the service in the cost of the car including wipers and brakes.

I was comparing scope of coverage to BMW, not cost...

OK... I jut found a really cool range tool. Takes elevation changes and speed into account to show how much charge is remaining for certain distances...

All the measurements are in metric, but very cool...

http://www.jurassictest.ch/GR/

It's just a matter of time until you get one. Order it now. Then invite me for a ride the next time I swing through your town on my way to my brother in law's house.

Couple quick updates...

I booked a flight to LA to go get a test drive in a couple weeks (Mar 29/30). Was thinking of doing a mid-week day trip, but instead going over on a Fri afternoon and back on Sat evening due to a friend's availability... Flight was cheap -- $138 round trip!

One of the local Model S owners has also offered to meet up for a quick drive and a beer. He's hosted meet-ups at his house for local owners...

Monday evening I posted that I saw one that morning... That was just the start of a flood. I think I've seen 2 or 3 every day since.