Car Shopping
 

Took this nice day and did some car shopping.

We are looking at getting something smallish, reasonable gas mileage, but not hard core enough about that to get a non-performance model. :)

We we thinking Fiat 500 Abarth, and that is still on the list, but no demos to see and drive yet. So we took at a look at some cars in the similar range. We are looking in the $25K range MSRP.

Today we looked at the VW GTI, Honda Civic Si, and Subaru WRX.

VW GTI - VERY impressed with this car. More so than I expected. Feels like a German car, even starting from opening the doors. Fairly roomy, good power, NICE brakes. Feels a lot like the M3 in many ways. Not much torque steer, but will probably be a handful with serious understeer if pushed hard. 200 HP 3000 pounds EPA 21/31

Honda Civic Si - Not available without a sunroof (deal killer itself) but I don't fit in the car. With the seat all the way down and otherwise adjusted, my head is against the sunroof surround section. Nope, did not bother to drive it.

Subara WRX - More power and less gas mileage than the 500 and GTI. It has gotten to be a fairly big car, but nice to drive. Very good power, a good bit of body roll. Not quite as quality feeling as the GTI, but definitely nice. EPA 19/25. 265 HP 3200 pounds

One ringer, the dealer has a Golf R sitting there. No sunroof. Blue. Sweet. But doesn't fit the price or gas mileage goals. I will NOT buy it, I will NOT buy it, I will NOT buy it. :) EPA 19/27 256 HP 3300 pounds.

Fiat 500 is 160 HP 2600 pounds and only mileage figure seems to be highway at 34.

Still want to check out the Mini and maybe the 1 series. And see/drive the Abarth.

Don't know about the GTI or the R, but our 2.5 liter Rabbit go much better mileage than the EPA average.

MUCH better than the sticker. I even joked about it once to our service writer that maybe they should look at the motor to find out why we got such good mileage

IF memory serves correct, we got about 33/40-42 with the 5-speed

Nice group. I think what you'll find, driving the Mini, is that it has the same Germanic solidity as the Golf. It drives like a much more serious car than the looks would have you believe.

At the same time, it is a lot livelier than the Golf. The steering, clutch and shifter all have a lot more resistance, and next to the Golf it feels downright twitchy.

The Golf certainly feels more adult, but the Mini is a lot more playful.

Not to steal your thread, but I too went to a couple dealerships to see what the story is for the FRS/BRZs. Perhaps you may want to consider one too?

BRZ - The dealer was very pushy to get a deposit from me, and I do not blame him. The first salesman read the brochure to me and told me that Scions have nothing to do with Subarus. The sales manager was walking by/listening to our conversation and took over from there. Bottom line, this dealer is claiming that they are only allocated 5 BRZs for the whole year. The price quote for the Premium (Subaru's base model) he gave me seemed to have a mark up and pushed the total sales price near $29k. Maybe that is the price point for these. No thanks. Having a Subaru badge is not worth an extra $2-3k to me.

FRS - I just need to pick a color (dark blue or dark grey), but Scion it is for me.

It sounds like the Golf R is the winner in your search so far. Are the Fiat Abarths here yet, or are all of the Abarths sold already? Which Mini model were you considering?

We picked up the BRZ brochure and will look more closely at it. It seems that for the gas mileage, staying the 200 HP or less range makes sense. Fun, but reasonable fuel economy. Going to the 250+ range really makes a difference in gas mileage.

Had not considered the Scion, but will add that to the mix.

Probably ooking the the MCS (see 200 HP comment above), but would prefer the JCW, but same considerations as the Golf R (price gas mileage).

Trying to stay away from going too high end, as if the leaked info is correct, the next gen M3 might be a serious player (I like the idea of 3100 pounds 480 HP :) ).

The Fiat 500 Abarths are in production. The demo should be at the dealer soon. I think they took the first round of customer orders for delivery in May sometime.

I vote R:)

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/attach...1&d=1333909761

just saw this

Looked at the BRZ and FR-S online. NO WAY those two are not from the same assembly line. :)

No mileage stats on it yet.

I like that it is RWD.

They are almost exactly the same car save for the bumper covers, badging, and maybe a few other easy-to-change parts. Possibly a little different interior. Oh, and I think the Subie will have a bit more "content" to it's base model. Don't quote me, however. Otherwise, almost exactly the same car.

And . . . I don't really care about the badges. If the Scion were cheaper for what I'd want I'd probably go that route.

The most recent C/D had a comparison of the two that indicated that the suspension tuning will be slightly different, and it sounded as though the Scion will be a bit less biased toward understeer and thus potentially a bit more fun out of the box.

Both cars roll on Toyota Prius tires, weirdly enough. The article suggested that this was intentional, because low grip tires with progressive breakaway are more fun than super sticky summer rubber. Might just be spin to explain cost-cutting, though.

I'm almost positive the mileage for the BRZ/FRS is 21 city and 30 highway, but they require the premium fuel. So, subjectively okay depending on how you view that.

The numbers that Jeff posted were very similar to, though slightly less than what the Subaru dealer quoted me. With MD taxes, it pushed the price to barely under $29k. I know the Scion can be had for less than $27k including taxes/all out the door.

Is what you posted about the next M3 true? 3100 lbs?!?!? I know I cannot afford one, but I like that number.

I call shenanigans on those numbers. 480 hp? Maybe. But 3100 lbs? The 328i, with an aluminum block turbo four, already weighs 3406. The 335 is 170 lbs heavier.

I imagine that the M3 will use even more aluminum than the base car already does, but are they really going to be able to get a 300lb net loss over the base car even after adding 2 cylinders, an extra turbo, bigger brakes, beefier driveline components, and so on? I doubt it. Not unless they strap a dirigible to the roof.

I would be happy with 3400 lbs (i.e., no net weight gain over the base car), which I think is far more realistic.

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showthread.php?t=50234

The quoted weight on the .de site of the 328i is 1505 kg, so that's a little more realistic, but I still don't believe it.

The M3 LTW is something like 400 poounds lighter than the stock M3. :)

The article is wrong. It does not have Prius tires. This rumor has been refuted by the people who have gone to dealerships to look at the cars.

Interesting. So what does it have?

According to this, they are the same tires as a JDM performance package (?!) on the Prius. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4183

C/D actually notes this distinction in the article, FWIW.

There may be more to this story but I have now reached the limit of things I can read about Priuses this month.

Michelin Primacy HP. Tire rack lists it as a "Summer touring tire."

The confusion comes from the fact that the Primacy HP is available in the Japan market as the Prius Performance Package. Not offered on any US Prius.

It's sold on more than one BMW and Mercedes US model as OE fitment.

Not saying it's necessarily a great tire, but saying it's a Prius tire is misleading and incorrect.

No it's not. It may be a little misleading not to include the disclaimer that it's an optional Prius tire not available in the US, but it's not incorrect--it's a tire available on the Prius, and according to the Toyota engineer that C/D interviewed, it was chosen in part because it doesn't have a huge amount of grip.

Saw both today at NYIAS. The Scion interior looks amazingly cheap. The Subie is the only one I'd consider after sitting in the Scion.

They are the same minus the red trim on the seats. The limited with the alcantara and auto climate does look a bit nicer.

Radio, climate control, center console are not the same. Scion bits look like playskool.

Climate control is the same for the premium brz, playschool like

Looks different to me.

Scion:

http://media.caranddriver.com/images...s-1280x782.jpg

Scoobie:

http://image.motortrend.com/f/358645...Z-interior.jpg

At least in pictures, the interior in both cars is hilariously awful. I think they must be going for 80s retro--why else would they fit those clocks? Are there enough scrapped 280ZXs to provide clocks for the whole production run?

The ones without nav are even better, though, because the radio is powerfully evocative of the old GM double-DIN units from the 80s.

http://www.motormavens.com/emAlbum/a...W-Image_15.jpg

That the limited I mention above:rolleyes: BRZ does come with nav standard so you cannot get the 80s gm stereo

I'm not sure is Jeff is saying the Subaru's climate control is actually identical to the Scions in certain trim packages, so I'll ignore that difference.

Trivial observations that, IMO, favor the Subaru:

- The Subaru has stitching on the parking brake and boot while the Scion doesn't
- The Subaru has the "aluminum" trim around the shifter - also the traction control and sport buttons just behind the shifter look better in alum
- Prefer the fake aluminum trim look over the fake carbon fiber look on the trim
- Leather bolsters on the seats does make it look less cheap
- Heated seats are nice

In the Scion's favor:
- White-faced speedo
- No stupid "engine start/stop" button


I'm not sure if Jeff is saying the Subaru's climate control is actually identical to the Scions in certain trim packages, so I'll ignore that difference - which in these pictures clearly favors the Subaru.

Interior looks fine to me. BR-Z's interior looks a little better. You're being nitpicky with the clock. Who cares if it has a digital clock?

Wow... those interiors look dated.

I didn't think the Miata's interior was much to talk about but it's nice and clean, and works well in comparison.

In any case, while somewhat dated the interiors certainly wouldn't stop me from getting either one. Though, I do like the BRZ interior better. Is it worth the extra coin, especially considering it sounds like the Scion version will have a sportier suspension tune? Dunno.

true.

but the mx-5 interior is an expanse of (somewhat nice quality) black plastic.

the matte silver expanse in the BRZ covering the passenger airbag looks chintzy in person, i can tell from the picture because Subaru uses that a lot now in its cars and it's suboptimal looking.

does it matter to a driving enthusiast? no.

none of this crap matters if the car(s) can be had for less than 30,000.

the closer these cars get to 30,000, the more i'd just opt for a v6 mustang.

look at the interior on those cars.....they've gotten pretty nice.

The Fiat Abarths are showing up at dealers. But in someone's infinite wisdom (did they hire people from BMW NA), the demo cars are 2 - 6 weeks out, and only customer cars are showing up.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I wouldn't even consider cross shopping the BR-Z, FR-S with a Mustang. Certainly wouldn't consider cross shopping a Mustang and an MX-5 either.

They are just such completely different cars.

Plus, the V6 Mustang? I mean, it's actually a surprisingly decent car, and there's a weird kind of cognitive dissonance driving a Mustang that has decent power but delivers it in a very cammy way and without the V8 soundtrack. But at the end of the day I would kick myself every time I started it for not getting the 8. Every time.

And while the Mustang has evolved into a pretty nice car to drive, it's way too big to give you any of the same sort of feedback that the Miata does. I assume the BR-Z will be the same story. The Mustang is satisfying, but with the V6 its not particularly *fun.* You need the 8 for that.

It's a "piano black" swath of plastic in my era NC Miata. In the NC2's it has been colored a matte silver or something like that. Some guys will pop the piece out and wrap it in a carbon fiber look-alike sheet . . . or they will paint it, usually body color. But it's just a simple 3" wide band across the dash. Not some garish amount of it.

Honestly, I'd prefer not to have mine Piano Black (marketing for really shiny, easily scratched black plastic). But I'm not at the point of doing anything about it yet.

yeah my mazda 3 has something similiar. Was thinking about looking around to see if there was anything nicer to replace it with like real aluminum but havent bothered with it.

112MPH speed limiter. No thanks.

Worse yet, the drivetrain really can't take high speeds.

the V6 mustang is a pretty natural competitor for the BR-Z, though. by pricepoint, footprint, space, etc.

i wouldn't buy a v6 mustang, either, but it seems natural to explore the space with some serious cowbell to give context for the BR-Z shoppers.

The only other car I "considered" (though not seriously) once I decided on a new car was the Hyundai Genesis coupe. I really liked the Genesis Coupe 4-cyl turbo, but I could not get over the styling and it was too much $. I did not even think about the Mustang (V6 or V8).

The waiting time for my FRS is killing me... June seems so far away.

Terry: did you drive the regular Fiat 500 yet? If so, was it fast enough for merging onto the highway? I'm starting to see more and more 500s pop up in the city now, and their styling has really grown on me.

We did not drive a standard 500. Our experience with driving a 330 and then getting the M3 showed that can be a substantial difference. :)