Range Rovers
 

The fancy has struck me for a Range Rover HSE, specifically 2010 to 2012. I'm wondering if the v8 in these (375hp?) was carried forward to FC's newer LR4. The Range Rover Sport doesn't appeal to me (though likely it's a more useful size), I like the full sized HSE, don't think I have any interest in the Supercharged versions. I'm guessing weak points may be air suspension, electrics. What else? Has anyone here owned one?

FC. I assume your LR4 has been reliable. But it was brand new and guessing still under warranty. How many miles now? Have you put snow tires or slummed the MA winter on all-seasons?

Now that we are the owners of an *old* home and a fast growing dog, many of FC's decision criteria apply. I am also tired of damaging undertrays, fog lights, front bumpers on snow and ice piles that I inevitably need to park on/over. While I have gone the route of snow tires on low cars, both the TDI and the 5er sustained damage this mild winter on the two storms we had. The TDI doesn't matter as it goes back in three weeks. The 5er front lower bumper has scratches, I replaced a fog light and now am seeing some misalignment on its wonderful M-exhaust (will have to take that in).

The Home Depot stuff does push the boundaries of a Golf and a 5er without fold-down seats. And then the fast growing dog (she hit 60lbs & 26" at 5 and a half months, still adding 2-3lbs/week). I think we could swing an older, less-reliable one as we won't depend on it daily as a commuter and the running costs (tires, brakes, mpg) may be reasonable for the 4 to 6k miles/year we put on.

I find them more appealing looking than the newer gen.

I don't want x5's or other utes (ML?) that don't have real grip on the bad stuff. That's important to me. I tried air suspension on a cayenne (new loaner) and that was great as well, so that's also an option. Somehow finding the RR more attractive, but I guess there are other options. LR4, 4runner, Land Cruiser... Not sure what any one of them have over the other.

And yes, I do remember my failed x5d purchase. Shortest holding period ever. Bought in October, could not wait out the winter. Hated the suspension, the seats (both base), don't think xdrive has the grip I need. My particular one also had a continual whiff of diesel in the cabin, not something I've seen in MB's and VW's.

Unless you can find one at CarMax with their warranty, I'd stay far far away from a used Land Rover product…

I know that Doug Demuro's is older, but his blogs about his Range Rover give a good feel for what to expect...

I have seen his videos. His is an earlier (2006?) version. Some of the stuff he gets fixed, he goes to the dealer and racks up large bills to make a story out of it. Of course, it's a high maintenance vehicle, but is it really THAT bad as a non-primary car? I see so many running around.

What are some alternatives? I don't need more than 2 rows, a nice interior and a smooth ride are essential. I don't want to spend more than $30k on this machine, less if possible.

I suspect any SUV ​with decent ground clearance and AWD will perform as well as an RR in your suburban environment.

I believe the current gen Rovers have slightly better reliability, but also crazy high resale due to limited volume production and high demand in foreign markets. I've poked around at what 2013+ models sell for as I've always thought they look pretty nice and they are just too much money. Prior gen (the ones you are talking about) are considerably cheaper but come with the historical LR/RR reliability. Also keep in mind that car was developed under BMW ownership, refreshed under Ford ownership and by the time it went out of production Tata was under control. I always wondered what that would mean for a mix of BMW, Ford and who-knows-what electronics and mechanicals throughout the car.

Yeah, what about a Grand Cherokee?

Like this one looks nice.

https://www.carmax.com/car-beta/13870362

I know people who would rather push a Land Rover than drive a Jeep. Those people tend to do a lot of pushing.

I get the appeal of Rangies, and newer ones are more promising in the reliability department, but a Grand Cherokee does pretty much everything better and cheaper. (The only possible exception is a third row of seats, which Jeep doesn't offer yet, but I don't know whether the RR has one.)

See, I just like the interior & exterior of the boxy generation. I've ridden around in a RR HSE for short trips and one RRS (diesel in Europe) for a much longer trip. I prefer the full size one. I'm not looking to spend 2013+ money, as I wrote, I need for not that much mileage per year.

My minimal research shows that the 2010-2012 got the Ford/Jag 5.0 v8 to replace the Bmw 4.4. So it must be better, right? (Progress!)

https://newyork.craigslist.org/que/cto/6105314386.html

In fact, this is my target car, I've not convinced the better half yet to go see it. Sure, I could muscle this decision through, but I'd rather have her on board. Last weekend there was little opportunity, this coming weekend, I'll be in Scottsdale, AZ. Hope it lasts on the market (doubt it).

I don't have any love for x3 or x5's. The JGC would indeed do the job, correct size and good AWD/4x4 system. But, but...

I guess I've rented them in the distant past and I just don't want one. This is a rationalization thread, where I have certain desires, and I'm cloaking them in pseudo-logic.

My LR4 is a late MY2013 (built in Aug and took delivery in late September). I got among one of the last of the Jag 5.0L V8's, which are the most desirable. The LR4 with that engine was made from 2010 thru 2013. Those are considered very reliable cars. There really aren't many issues with them other than the water pump, which is a PITA to get to and the job can run several hundred dollars. Lower control arm bushings can go "early" (60-80k?) but that's mileage related issue. They are considered such a PITA to replace, people often buy a whole new LCA assy. Besides that, as long as you stay away from the multi-camera system, they are pretty good. The screen is laggy and the Nav sucks, and this is much worse on pre 2012 models.

The LR4 does consume tires and brakes (OE contis blow, btw). Consider yourself lucky if pads last you 20-25k miles. Rotors tend to last 2 sets of pads.

My SUV has 26k miles of 80% around town driving. Still drives like new and I love it. So far, only issues I've had have been:

- Squeaking driver's mirror on open/close.
- driver's seat track. power seat stopped moving front/back
- burnt out head lamp.

That's it. All covered under warranty - which expires this September. The frame has more surface rust than I would like to see, but the body and paint are immaculate. Also, as you know, I get 13 city 18-19 hwy on premium, so range is not awesome 280-350 miles. But man, is it silky smooth.

Oh, accessories and dealer work prices are LOL high.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a camry, but the V8 vintage LR4 is probably no worse than any other German car. The fact that it is nice and not a nightmare is reflected on it's surprisingly high resale. If you have a locking rear diff (as I do), those models are worth that much more.

EDIT: on tires, OE contis are mediocre in general, but they are awful in the winter. They are ok around town and on the highway. They are on their last season before they get replaced. I put on some Nokian hakkas SUV and my goodness, this thing drives on snow as if it had tracks. 1' of slushy snow on a hill? Traction control doesn't even come on. It just flattens things and moves along.

Great, I was waiting for the actual LR/RR owner to chime in. Yes, that's the engine I had in mind, but I haven't driven any LR/RR. The rides I got were a v6 TDI in the RRS in Europe and I think the old v8 in the RR here.

Nav is basically irrelevant these days, other than screen/connection options.

Do you have air suspension? Does the LR4 share more with the RR or the RRS? I hadn't looked at LR4's as I don't ever expect to need 7 seats. Would definitely like the rear diff lock, surprising how many snow/ice piles I've hit parking around in our tight neighborhood (and this one would live outside along with the 535i, my indoor spots are sports car sized).

Yes, all LR4's get the adjustable height air suspension. For what it is, my anecdotal experience from forums is that it is surprisingly reliable (though not bullet proof). The compressor is the weak point if any. Also it's location leads it to being crushed when the vehicle is lifted if people are not careful.

The RRS is based off the LR4/LR3 chassis/frame, so it will have more in common with that. The Top Gear review (Clarkson) of the then new RRS mentions this.

A main reason I bought the LR4 is because for the amount of volume it offers it is a very short vehicle (a foot shorter than most in its class). It's just tall and boxy so it looks larger. The rear cargo area (with seats folded) is large (and tall) enough for me to change in relative comfort. I love my LR4.

Also, you sit VERY tall on this SUV. You can see over everything (including huge snow banks). The LR4 has lots of glass all round, which is nice for everyone and makes people in the 3rd row feel very comfortable.

Update. Late on Memorial day, went to see a cpo LR4. The packaging miracle is certainly true. It's like a giant honda fit. Did not get a chance to test drive as dealer was a half hour from closing. Started it up. Engine sound was muffled. Lowered and raised suspension a few times, heard one clunk, was told it was normal.

While dealer had cleaned up the car, mileage was low, they were asking a pretty penny and there was definitely kiddie damage. C. commented that most lr4's would have it. She wasn't really into it.

That said, I came upon range rover (non sport, non supercharged, just full sized hse) to check out for sale by an acquaintance. This makes no sense but I'm strongly drawn to these trucks. I can't wait to go see it. I think that says it right there. Ooof. Car #4 (not counting the gti). What am I going to sell, the m3 or the 535i? Can I live with the autobox? We shall see.

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Why rule out the LR4?

Too few LR4'S on the market, we will never need a third row, lucky if we need a second. Smarter buy new but the lux RR'S are depreciated now and simply illogically attractive to me


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The real RR's are really cool. If depreciation makes them remotely competitive with an LR4, for your needs, I'd totally go with a RR, especially if you like it. It's a very nice place to be in.

Went shopping for Range Rovers... Tried to look at two full-size HSE's 2011 to 2012, around 65-70k miles, cheap (?), around the mid-20's. Once again, this will be a 3 to 6k/yr truck, it doesn't need to be new/uber-reliable. That said...

1. Option 1 was at a LR/RR dealer. They said they wholesaled it because the engine was bad. :eek:

2. Option 2 was at a BMW dealer. Not feeling the dealer/pharmacist white exterior, but beautiful cocoa interior. Loved sitting in it. Drove it, first LR/RR drive ever.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...ngId=453837703

Light, acceptable steering, great position/visibility, smooth ride and as long as driven slowly as it's meant to be, nice turn-in/nose response. Wonderful machine.

After plenty of warm-up on small roads, merged onto the highway and.....

Almost had an accident. Engine revved up but we didn't quite move. The tranny slipped and threw a fault!!!

So far 2/2 had major issues at the price point I'm looking at. Sadly, the interior and the light/smooth driving feel did speak to me. It was really up there in terms of not just luxury but also a good mercedes/jaguar like drive.

In other news, returned the Golf TDI. In Spring 2014, we paid $20,895+tax at 24k miles with CPO. Today we got paid (check on the spot), $20,965, $70 more than we paid. At 72k miles. :) A few hundred spent on maintenance. Still on the same 3-season set of tires (but up for a new set, up for an oil change and other maintenance). $150 spent on buying winter tires and selling them back. The whole 48k miles basically cost us $1400 of tax.

Awesome. But how'd you manage that? :scratch:

And what do you mean :returned:?

Sorry, I'm lost. :)

TDI buyback. Equ lucked out by buying a car with cheater emissions, and then took advantage of the program VW has set up to try and keep its ass out of a sling.

Oh crap. Yeah I'm slow.

And what a deal!

Technically, it was Equ's partner C. but yes, lots of luck. We also bought a nearly new GTI with diff for the same amount. So all evened out.

I think after your shopping experience, I'm just going to go ahead and bump this... CarMax warranty FTW.

(For what it's worth, this is years-old data, but when I was in the biz our 3rd party extended warranties were crazy expensive for used Jags and Rovers. It would cost 25-30% of the price of the cars you are looking at. No clue what CarMax is selling theirs for these days. Sounds like they used to be cheap but caught the error after the Demuro stories popped up and then they increased the rates)

Land Rover products are far more unreliable pre-2010.

What is a partner C .. sorry if most understand this but I'm not quite getting this ... TIA

His gal, his squeeze, his broad. :lol:

(No disrespect intended at all, I've met her and she's lovely, smart, and generally awesome)

Why, thank you, Mr. Plaz, you're quite the gentleman. Yes, the TDI was hers, now the GTI is.

So my full-sized RR madness continues... I've learned a bit over the last couple of months.

I have now driven a couple of competitor cars.

- 2014 JGC Overland (air suspension and a bunch of goodies) but V6 model. Out of budget but gave me an idea. Not as rolly-polly as the full-sized RR, more like a RR Sport. A chunky brick. Pentastar V6 did not sound or feel good enough for 5000lbs (and this was a 30k mile CPO car). Not enough torque off the line, and then not a smooth revver that you want to see zing. Maybe feels better with the diesel - but the FCA diesel seems highly questionable. So this leaves the hemi 5.7, which IMHO, this SUV needs to get out of its own way. Generally felt OK to drive/cannot go wrong, but nothing special either. Dislikes other than the engine: Visibility (especially fat A-pillar) and Roominess/Space.

LX-470: I had high hopes. The current LX570 is hideous. The really old LX or LC's are 6-cylinder and likely insufficient. This could have been the sweet spot. A real disappointment. Supposed the "Land Cruiser". This one was at 90k miles (and not cheap!) but many small things were wrong. Toyota V8 was a good engine, though this older version was not sufficient for the highway. Gearing & torque felt peppy up to 40mph or so. Generally comparable to the full-sized RR, but overall I felt like I was driving something that was rental car quality.

Footnote: I tried a 2005. 2006 & 2007 get more hp not much more torque. Even if that solves the power issues, I still feel like it's driving nothing special at all. I guess that's what Toyota is about. JGC - while not the same size - is better to drive - by a lot. And the RR's are better still.

Splitting hairs between boxy last-gen RR's:

2010+ : The base/HSE trim V8 gets far stronger but has real issues reported in the forums. Same with the supercharged. The only way to be safe with the 5.0 engine is to get a last MY LR4 like FC. Those are still in way too much demand and have family wear/tear on them. As well as a third row that I do not want. Not digging that much glass up above either. Never driven an LR4 but should be pretty similar to the RR. The original RR that I was thinking of was a 11 HSE Lux that someone I know was selling. I can transfer his warranty, but the truck has not tow bar, no HK, no rear diff. It's much more a lux version. So I think I'm going to pass on 2010+/

Focusing on 2007 to 2009.... These engines are *supposed* to be reliable. Either 4.4 base/HSE or 4.2 Supercharged. I looked at two or three HSE's, and unlike the 2010+ every single time I drive a 4.4, it feels insufficient. Also the handling feels really quite bad.

This leaves the 2007 to 2009 Supercharged. The electronics do feel out-of-date, but if they have been kept up, these are the ones I like driving (I'm sure I wouldn't mind the 2010+ Supercharged either). It's not just the power, but also some kind of firmer suspension that makes it easier for me to drive. I get comfortable in them very quickly. Supposedly the 4.2 SC is no less reliable than the 4.4 and the mpg's are similar. So I've definitely narrowed down. They can be had in the high-teens for 80-90k miles. I just have to get comfortable with service histories or come across the "right one" - if there is such a thing. I've found one black/black that I like, but would really prefer a lighter interior.

Here's where I would probably just go buy a Toyota 4-Runner or something.

That's a thought that occurred to me yesterday as I was let down by the LX470. OTOH, if the top Toyota is not that great... Only the slightly smaller size might save the 4runner.

The 4runner needs to be chosen carefully. Locked 4wd systems are not what I need. So the pickup/Tacoma's will also not work. Low range is a nicety, but what I really need is a good/AWD center differential and ideally a rear differential (like the S4 set-up but with ground clearance). Essentially what FC needed without the 3rd row.

Some 4runner's have that. Almost all are v6. The rare v8 4runners? Good luck finding one. Seems to be much easier to find used Euro-luxury goods rather than Honda/Toyota fare and when they are used, they have been heavily used and still pricey.

are the used 4-runner prices not eye watering high too?

You know what has decent power and handling and a solid AWD system? The X5. :)

Curious as to what problems you have read about. I know the water pump is a dodgy item. Beyond that there is the very rare chain tensioner issue, but like you said, I think later V8's are deemed more reliable.

Another thing to consider is that many people suggest much more frequent drivetrain fluid changes than specified (i.e. tranny fluid change at 50k miles not 100k or whatever they recommend).

X5? You're joking, right?

Shortest ownership ever. Worst car I've ever owned. They are highly option dependent. Mine didn't have the right seats or the suspension, but I bet it will still have sucked. Remember, I've had several xdrive cars. It's an also-ran system from POV. Good enough for midlantic maybe, but not for my use.

Regular A4 or any longitudinal quattro is far better than xdrive [for me] and a decent center diff plus a rear diff would be best. Range Rover, S4, JGC with right options, maybe a few others.

Your V8 is fine as you researched. It is not on any RR, as they ended in 2012.

The ones that I'm looking at $25k the 5.0 issue seems to be like IMS. Multiple people on forums have lost engines, but then so was IMS, a small percentage in the real world. Anyway, there are few things I like better about the 07-09's, especially price. There is a RR buyer's guide book out there detailing the problems.

From my POV, your car, late 2013 with rear diff/spare is very hard to find, you did well.

Remind me why a V8 Grand Cherokee is out?

The sightlines take some getting used to, and it's far from "sporty". A guy who thinks the X5 is too trucky would be over it in about an hour. Never mind his adventures over the Rubicon would surely scratch the paint or dent the rockers.

The v8 JGC is not out, I haven't driven one. I'm less attracted to them than the full-sized RR but I'm less attracted to the RR sport as well. Between the JGC and the RR Sport, I think I'll take the JGC, if the hemi is what I think it is. If you look at truedelta or consumer reports, while not as bad as old Land Rover's, they are not paragons of reliability either.

I don't need any Rubicon or really any 'true' 4x4. I need AWD so I can do 45mph on a snowy highway.

I need clearance. I'm tired of buying front bumpers and spoilers and having them painted. We even got lucky last year as most of that accrued on the TDI that went to the buyback. Still, the f10 got its fair share, the front bumper has ice damage. We get snow piles that turn to ice, I park on the street a lot.

The rear diff part? Yeah that's sauce.

Xdrive? Puh-leeze. I've gotten stuck on a snowy/icy pile with my 335i xdrive, not high centered, just spinning two diagonal wheels. With pilot alpin pa4 snow tires!!!

I couldn't park, left the spot and a FWD mini with all-seasons parked right in (size helped) but yeah xdrive grip is subpar and that's the day I decided to sell the 335.

Reminds me of this guy. :lol:

How can I forget that one? :D Hopefully I was less angry and less spinning but yeah. It's JGC for chrissakes...

I tried all levels of traction/DTC as well. Fully on, fully off, half on.

I've seen British (biased?) reviews of JGC's that say that it doesn't have the grip/traction of LR/RR. I'm not going to go mudding but it may be a concern.

The above scenario hits me a few times a winter and if I can park on piles, it opens up so many more spots that I am mobile as opposed to not. JGC's have levels of center & rear diff as well. Quadra this that, all that stuff that I'll have to figure out.