Thoughs on Cheap Sporty Cars (thread break)
 

So as not to clog up the Corvette vs 911 discussionin this thread, I figured I'd break this response out into it's own thread.



As for some of the cars on my list? I'm rather biased toward the Miata and don't have seat time with the other cars. I don't just randomly go out on test drives unless I'm actually in the market and I'm not in the market and won't be for a while. Too much of a hassle dealing with dealership BS just to go out on a random test drive.

So these thoughts are based on bench driving and impressions I've developed based on reading I've done.

That being said, I like sports / sporty car. Preferably something more basic and light. High HP numbers aren't as important to me as whether or not a car is fun to drive (did I mention I drive a Maita?) even though, all else being equal, sure, moar power is good! I also prefer a more compact platform as they feel more nimble (at least in my head if no where else).

My wife really dislikes our Miata. It "works" within our family line up now but . . . it's a small car that only seats 2 people reducing it's usefulness. 97%+ of the time it's not an issue. But on occasion it'd be nice to pick up my wife and son without having to swap cars around. So, it's replacement down the road might be something with a bit more practicality (4 seats).


Miata (a starting point)
Had one before (NB) and really liked it but for two issue: cowl shake and it needed a little more power. The NC fixes my two issues. It has about 20-25% more power / torque and it's accessible a little lower in the RPM range making the car better suited for the street. And the chassis is ~47% stiffer . . . which after two years I've not noticed the cowl shake. Suffice to say, after two years and 30,000 miles of driving it, I'm still LOVING my NC Miata. It puts a big grin on my face when I get into it and I can do that a fair amount in daily driving (that whole driving a slow car fast thing). I don't want to give it up.

BUT

I'm also VERY much looking forward to see what Mazda comes up with for the ND Maita. Even though I'm probably 5+ years out from getting a replacement car. Good thing I love what I have.

BRZ / FR-S
Very intrigued by these cars as they are right up my alley. Enough power to have fun. Good suspension / chassis design. And they look really good, too. Oh, and RWD. The back seat . . . would be handy at times. Yet when I sat in one at the dealership (as we were Forester shopping) my reaction to being inside one was "meh." Actually, the more I see the interior, the more it looks shitty. Not saying that the Miata is all that special but it seems much nicer to me (hard plastics and all) than the BRZ / FR-S. And acceleration wise . . . it's effectively the same as the Miata.

WRX
Interested in this as it's close to an STi power wise but much cheaper, has AWD, available with a stick, in a 5-door hatch back form factor which I dig for the practicality, and looks kind of cool with sub-6 second acceleration 0-60. After getting our Forester and seeing what that's like it's gotten me more interested in Subaru as a brand. But, damn, the car seems huge (after coming from a Miata). not sure I could get used to that even though everything is relative.

Focus ST
I'm really liking this a lot. I think it's one of the best looking hatches on the market right now. The styling looks fantastic. And it's great to see Ford making something very competitive in this segment. But it's FWD which I've never liked. I'd prefer RWD, AWD, or 4WD depending on application. Maybe the FWD characteristics in the FoST aren't noticeable . . . :dunno: Anyways, the drivetrain layout is a main thing that tamps down my interest in this car.

Fiesta ST
Lighter hatch back with a turbo engine? Sweet. This sounds like the beesknees right now but I don't like the styling nearly as much as the Focus. If I was getting a Ford hot hatch it'd be the FoST, probably.

Mazdaspeed3
Love Mazda and many of their cars. So I'm drawn to the Speed3 which I think is a really good deal on paper. . . but it's FWD only. So I have the same hang-ups on the Mazdaspeed3 as I do with the FoST and FiST.

GTI
I'm not that familiar with VW's line up but the GTI looks interesting. Their R32 or R20 or which ever definitely piques my interest much more but . . . . damn if those cars aren't pricey. Like the WRX vs STi I'm not sure it's worth the extra coin to go up to the higher performance model. But I'm also not crazy about FWD.

Mustang
Bwahahaha. Doubt this would ever happen but . . . the new Mustang I find really interesting. I like the design work even if it's not more EVOS-like as I'd been really hoping for. Given how the FoST and FiST turned out, I'm very curious to see how Ford tuned the Mustang's chassis with the switch to IRS. Oh, and V8. Fuck, if there isn't something magical sounding about American V8's. It's like . . . simply perfection in nation . . . as if that's how an engine should sound. But I'm not sure I'd pony up for a V8. Our car budgets are much more modest these days (despite higher earning that we have in the past with the prospect of reduced day care costs in the next year or two). It's just not where we want to sink a lot of our money these day. Even me. :eek:

Genesis Coupe
Sounds good on paper but it leaves me cold and is almost never on my mind. Not sure why I even thought about it now. But it can be had with a 300 hp V6, seats 4, stick, and has ok handling. Styling isn't horrible but more just blah. I don't really like blah.

Upcoming
Very much interested to see what comes out on the market in a few years. Kia's Stinger GT 4 REALLY got my attension. I love the styling, very sleak and elegant. And it's along the same lines as the BRZ / FR-S in terms of cheap(ish) RWD sports car. More please.

Nissan had a retro Datsun-like thing that look pretty good. . . modern E30-ish that seemed like it'd be sporty and seat four. I don't normally like sedan formats (if it's not a sports car, might as well have the practicality of a hatch). But it looked good.

Um, the FoST never lets you forget it's FWD. That said, you can drive in anger like no other FWD out there (except maybe the FiST which sounds like it's similar, but I haven't driven one).

I never thought of the WRX as fun in any way...just fast and cheap. STi faster and reasonable, but not cheap.

The Toybaru is something that really interests me and strikes me on paper as what I'd imagine a closed late gen Miata would be....lots of fun and quick enough, but not enough power to be really fun and fast. Very similar to the RX-8. Like the RX-8 needed RX-7like turbo power, the Toybaru needs STi-like turbo power, too, to really scratch the itch.

But after a year and a couple weeks and not quite 12k miles, the FoST is still really good cheap fucking fun.

After almost 5? 6? Years with the NC, I have to say I find it to be incredibly enjoyable. I hate the stock springs but the car is extremely well built and the engine is well designed.

I wouldn't see this car being displaced but for a pre-owned 981 or 991.

There are very few cars built this lightweight but also retaining structural integrity. For example, my R56 would be in pieces by now. And until Subaru moves to twin scroll turbocharging, the softness off the line makes those cars up appealing to me.

the new wrx is twin scroll.

Worth revisiting, again.

I've heard from a good source that this will go to production...

Yeah, like the cover of the new Autoweek. ;)

LOL

Have you driven the BRZ? That's what seals the deal with that car. A cayman it is not, but I did feel a bit of kinship. Much sweeter than a miata IMHO, much more like an rx-8 (with better mpg's!). Back seat is there but access is an issue. Cabin is small and dark, like a cave. But again, practicality is not what this car is about. It just has a minimum of it.

The outgoing 11-14 wrx's are excellent cars, better to drive than Sti's of same vintage, IMHO. Even 09-10's get the good engine, but the 11-14 get slightly different suspension and Sti-like fenders. The update looks good but so far is sedan only :( and displacement drops from 2.5 to 2.0. Interior may have improved a good amount, I haven't seen it yet. But the 2015+ is going to be a $30k car for some years anyway.

GTI is a good car, but not nearly as fun as the two above.

No comment on FoST, I personally don't like high hp FWD cars. I would like a Fiesta/Focus St or a MCS Cooper Works if I had four other cars, but not as my only 'fun' car. The driving experience is like walking an eager pup tugging at the leash... (I'll say that without having driven the recent Ford's, but I imagine the FWD+power has predictable results). They'd make great commuters.

That's a friggin fantastic analogy! Especially for the FoST in urban commuting duty. On smooth roads, it's not nearly as sketchy and unpredictable or FWD torque steerey like so many cars of the past. On uneven, broken, rutted, and oddly cambered roads that you find in urban environments and a bit of the suburbs, that same stuff makes the car do weird things. You can't stomp it in traffic without paying attention.

But man, I really like that eager puppy on a leash visual. So much truth.

I'd throw in a pre-owned 1 series convertible as closer to the spirit of the Miata than some of those others ... not "cheap" per se, but good value - particularly if you find a basic 128 with a stick.

I dig the BRZ, but if I'm going to drive something that is that underpowered, the top had better go down, which means I'd pick an MX-5 if I had to choose between only those two cars.

no MINI on the list?

I still like my FR-S, but it's been relegated to basically autocross-only. I always end up taking my old CRV or the gf's Civic everywhere because I do mostly city driving and the roads are terrible, stop-and-go, dog-hauling, etc.

I don't plan on selling the FR-S anytime soon, but I am very curious to see what the finished product for the IDx turns out to be. I really liked the looks of the Kia Stinger too. If only Honda would jump into the fray with a RWD affordable coupe...

I think a 128i with a diff and a few other mods would be a really fun car, but so would a 135i. I think they look okay enough to consider.

Funny - was recently going through this exercise in my head last night. Comments here echo my sentiments. The brz seems like the best on paper but I'd probably sacrifice a little handling and lightness for a nicer interior and a little more usability and get a used 128 or 135. Then again there's something very appealing to me about the GTI even thogh it's fwd, not as fast, not as fun.

I'm not fond of the spring / shocks in the NC either. Especially considering I have the "suspension package" with the Bilsteins. I looked for a Miata with that package mostly to get the limited slip diff. The stock handling is . . . mostly great for me. I like it a lot better than our ZHP and enjoy how nimble and playful the car is. Though in sweepers the car can get a bit wallowy. I'm figuring at about 100k (or when the shocks are shot) I'll do a mild upgrade to the suspension. Probably toss on a set of used RX-8 swaybars for ~$100 and upgrade the shocks / springs though I don't want to lower the car.

The issue for me is that while the NC has been derided for its 4x4-like ride height (or wheel / fender gap) I'm not sure I want to lower the car. After 2 years it doesn't look that bad to me anymore and for my area I'm digg'n having enough ground clearance and approach angle that I don't have to worry about curb cuts and speed bumps. . . . but I'd just like to tighten the suspension a tad bit. I'll look into it in another 20k miles or so and see what's available.



The BMW 1 series looks great but, eh, even if it was affordable used I don't think I'd want to get another BMW. Been there, somewhat scared to do that again. And our BMW experience I don't think was horrible. It's just, I dunno. . . not something I want to do again until we can more comfortably afford it.




As far as the MINI. . . . They look like they'd be a pretty fun car to drive, particularly the R56 S's. But . . . they're another BMW product and I don't want to go there again.

it's neither cheap nor sporty?

once you escalate to the S or JCW models, then they're sporty, but they're not cheap.

:dunno:

all of the cars listed are between $23000 and $26000 or thereabouts. Same as an MCS.

http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/adam...ncept-000.jpeg

It is a shame that this seems scrapped.

I am happy they scrapped it assuming they allocating their resources to making more power

in my own experience, you have to work to breach 30k in an MX5, or WRX.

while you can easily break 30k in the MCS.

Well, I like my cars relatively spartan. Power lock, power windows, stereo and. . . I'm pretty much good. I'd hope one could get an MCS set up like that for not much.

yep :cool: less stuff to break and become out of date. With that siad I do admit bluetooth is pretty nice in my latest car

i agree with you.

but they cost so damn much (some options) from MINI/BMW that i never opt for them.

Under $25,000 for a configured MCS. And that's MSRP. Not sure what you could spend an extra $5000 on.

A lot, apparently.

I suspect strongly that most MCS vehicles drive away on average closer to 30k.

Well people are dumb. It still should be on the OP's list.

That comment alone won me over.

I agree.

did we rule out the v6 mustang or the v6 camaro?

those are not slow cars.

The main problem with the V6 Mustang and Camaro is the existence of the V8 Mustang and Camaro.

Watched a YouTube video on the new mustang last night, actually looks pretty nice:eeps:

The new base model Mini doesn't sound bad

http://www.edmunds.com/mini/cooper/2014/road-test.html

I'll be curious about the turbo 4 motor they'll be sticking in the new Mustang. Apparently, in Ford's mind the engine hierarchy goes like this:

3.7L V6 - Base engine
Ecoboost 2.3L 4 cyl. - Mid-range
5.0L V8 - Premium

It seams weird thinking of a turbo 4 in a Mustang but the way I hear it is that the Ecoboost 4 cyl makes a bit more power than the V6 with a flatter torque curve that starts lower and better power across the RPM band and it should get better fuel economy.

http://image.musclemustangfastfords....ing_rubber.jpg

What's weird about a turbo 4 in a Mustang?

In 1985 and 1986, the SVO was positioned above the 5.0. Rightly so in 1985, maybe, maybe not in 1986, but it was gone for 1987.

Are those Michelin PSS tires? In 1985? No wonder it was such a hot car. :p

i'd prefer a turbo, especially where state of the art is right now.

the v8s are lovely, but it's really, really difficult to commute with them. see: "living with an E90 M3 on a daily basis, by JST" (abysmal fuel economy)

they can crackle and pop like v8 overrun, too. it's cool.

I enjoyed commuting in my V8. It got about the same fuel mileage as my E46, but it had an additional 180hp.

yeah --(we had same car) --but that car only weighed 3000lbs.

these V8s are barges. the mustang is easily 3600? camaro v8 is 3900. E90M3 is 3700 or so.

maybe why conceptually, for the OP, that the list was restricted to the cars that are on it. the pony cars are brutes. fun. but pretty different.

I dug commuting in the Fox body 5.0 Mustangs in the day. Pretty sure I'd be super happy commuting in a modern day 5.0 Mustang (either outgoing or incoming, but definitely more incoming) and happier with it than with the turbo 4 that they'll use. That begs the question if I'd be happy enough with the turbo 4. Based on my experience with the FoST, assuming the Mustang version is a bit quicker, yeah, I would be. But I'd still be happier with the V8. Mileage? Fuck that...and based on my experience with the FoST, I'd be pretty surprised if the turbo 4 Mustang does much better than the V8 in the real world of "how often do I have to fill up and what's it cost me?" The E90M3 was so awful not because of its mileage as much as that coupled with a tiny tank.

Mostly the list was restricted to cars that I'm somewhat interested in that I could think of off the top of my head that are potentially affordable after they are a few years used. :D

Also, anything I get (other than my Jeep) will be used for commuting, so I'd want a reliable vehicle that I can put 12,000 - 15,000 miles on per year and can go at least 150,000+ miles without too much fuss.

I'm thinking that's probably not a BMW M3.

The Mustang is a bit of an outlier as it's larger than I like but I think Ford is getting the weight down around 3400 lb. so, hm, still heavier than I wan't but not out of the norm in todays automotive landscape. The Camaro I wouldn't consider at all just because it seems like a fatter pig at near 4,000 lb. Besides, given how well Ford tuned the FoST and FiST cars, I think they're going to do a great job with the Mustang. Speculation, but I think it's a reasonable assumption at this point.