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-   -   Anyone driven an F30 330? (http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showthread.php?t=142731)

robg 12-12-2017 12:25 PM

Anyone driven an F30 330?
 
BMW keeps upping the ante with various incentives which piqued my interest enough to check out my local dealer's inventory. Came across a 330 wagon w/ adaptive suspension that looked appealing.

In the end, I was not a big fan of the n20 + ZF8 combo in my 528-- too jerky at low speeds and sometimes rough feeling idle. The f30 328s I've driven (w/ base suspension) have left me pretty uninspired with their sloppy steering and somewhat sloppy suspension. Supposedly, BMW has made a bunch of tweaks to the suspension, steering and drivetrain as of the 17 330 but I remain skeptical. Every review I read of the wagon w/ adaptive suspension seems very positive- but that may because the reviewers are drinking too much wagon koolaid.

At some point, I will test drive one but figured I'd ask you guys for feedback...

Theo 12-12-2017 01:21 PM

Just one comment. I have had two 330 loaners and while they are very pleasent and actually pretty darn quick I could never bring myself to spend 50 large on a car that sounds and feels like it has a tractor motor under the hood. EPA be dammed.

robg 12-12-2017 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo (Post 518656)
Just one comment. I have had two 330 loaners and while they are very pleasent and actually pretty darn quick I could never bring myself to spend 50 large on a car that sounds and feels like it has a tractor motor under the hood. EPA be dammed.

Yeah-- I tend to agree. Was hoping to avoid a 4 cyl turbo this time around as well but it's hard to do without spending lots more or making other compromises. The 330 wagon is one of the few cars I might be willing to make an exception for. Atleast BMW's 4 is the best of the bunch. Had been kicking around hte idea of getting a leftover 17 x3 35i but they're all pretty much gone now. But-- if the suspension and steering are still as bad the 328s I've driven I don't think I'd do it.

JST 12-12-2017 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robg (Post 518660)
Yeah-- I tend to agree. Was hoping to avoid a 4 cyl turbo this time around as well but it's hard to do without spending lots more or making other compromises. The 330 wagon is one of the few cars I might be willing to make an exception for. Atleast BMW's 4 is the best of the bunch

I haven't driven one but the BMW implementation of the 2.0L turbo four is substantially worse than a lot of the competitors, IMHO. I have no issue with a well engineered turbo four, but the BMW engine is just blergh.

robg 12-12-2017 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JST (Post 518661)
I haven't driven one but the BMW implementation of the 2.0L turbo four is substantially worse than a lot of the competitors, IMHO. I have no issue with a well engineered turbo four, but the BMW engine is just blergh.

Hmm- who do you think does it better? I've been even more underwhelmed by the turbo 4s i've tried in:
Fords, Jags, Audis, and VWs.

The main issues I've had with the drivetrain atleast in the 28 models I've driven were the manic way they program the transmission (super aggressive about shifting down to 1st). Also didn't like how the idle is overly rough somtetimes.

wdc330i 12-12-2017 01:42 PM

What about a 340 GT?

robg 12-12-2017 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdc330i (Post 518663)
What about a 340 GT?

Yeah... have mulled that over. Looked at them in person and in pics. Makes a lot of sense on paper. But...I just can't get over the way it looks (and I was willing to even overlook the ugly previous gen x3s styling but the GT is a bridge too far). I'm more likely to try and justify a 340 sedan despite the loss of practicality. THe 440 gran coupe is just too tight in the backseat.

JST 12-12-2017 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robg (Post 518662)
Hmm- who do you think does it better? I've been even more underwhelmed by the turbo 4s i've tried in:
Fords, Jags, Audis, and VWs.

The main issues I've had with the drivetrain atleast in the 28 models I've driven were the manic way they program the transmission (super aggressive about shifting down to 1st). Also didn't like how the idle is overly rough somtetimes.

I like the engine in my VW better. Hell, I prefer the engine/transmission combo in my parents' Escape to the one in the last 328 I drove. And, yeah, the BMW transmission is (or at least has been) terrible, but it's the roughness of the engine that drives me nuts.

John V 12-12-2017 02:36 PM

I keep coming back to this article.

https://thegarage.jalopnik.com/bmw-e...hit-1784684330

Nick M3 12-12-2017 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John V (Post 518676)
I keep coming back to this article.

https://thegarage.jalopnik.com/bmw-e...hit-1784684330

I've really come around on that article recently.

robg 12-12-2017 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John V (Post 518676)
I keep coming back to this article.

https://thegarage.jalopnik.com/bmw-e...hit-1784684330

Ha -yeah I saw that a while ago. Funny and true. But that's why I'd only lease a BMW (or any German car for that matter). Wouldnt trust a VW/Audi or MB engine to perform flawlessly over the long-term either.

John V 12-12-2017 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robg (Post 518679)
Ha -yeah I saw that a while ago. Funny and true. But that's why I'd only lease a BMW (or any German car for that matter). Wouldnt trust a VW/Audi or MB engine to perform flawlessly over the long-term either.

Certainly not. One of the main reasons I never had much interest in the Audi S4s with the DOHC V8 was the insanely high maintenance costs.

rumatt 12-12-2017 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick M3 (Post 518678)
I've really come around on that article recently.

:lol::lol::lol:

:mad:

Alan 12-12-2017 08:42 PM

I had one as a loaner when I brought my sons 340i in for service ... great car, great engine though the steering was a little weird, I’ve noticed it on the 328 as well when turning the wheel it wraps itself right back to center very quickly and feels strange.

I drove my sons 340 after and it doesn’t do this, also drove my friends 435 convertible and it doesn’t do it either. No idea if they say the steering is the same on all 3 series but it isn’t.

rumatt 12-12-2017 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AF (Post 518703)
I had one as a loaner when I brought my sons 340i in for service ... great car, great engine though the steering was a little weird

I HATED the steering in the F30 340xi that I drove. It was like someone was tugging on the wheel randomly while you were trying to turn. Really bizarre.

I found the 240i better, and the M2 best.

Well, the Cayman was best. But the M2 was as good as it got for a modern BMW. :D

Alan 12-13-2017 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumatt (Post 518707)
I HATED the steering in the F30 340xi that I drove. It was like someone was tugging on the wheel randomly while you were trying to turn. Really bizarre.

That describes it really well ... it is the same feeling I had but for some reason in my sons 340xi and my friends 435xi conv it does not have that feeling though every loaner I’ve had with the smaller engine does :dunno:

Btw I just realized the last loaner was a 430 not a 330 but still it had that weird tugging on the wheel thing.

rumatt 12-13-2017 08:28 AM

I left baffled how they could screw it up so badly. I know there are things that sell cars even though enthusiastic don't like them - light steering, high seating position, etc. But does anyone on the planet actually like what BMW is doing with the steering or is BMW just completely incompetent at this point? :?

ff 12-13-2017 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumatt (Post 518714)
But does anyone on the planet actually like what BMW is doing with the steering

Sure. I'll bet that a lot of people complained about how comparatively heavy the steering was on older BMWs (because they grew up driving american cars). They probably don't care about what the car feels like, anywhere near as much as they care about what logo is on the trunklid.

BMW wants to sell more cars. Lighter steering probably helps them do that.

John V 12-13-2017 10:53 AM

My theory is BMW sees Lexus selling a ton of cars and thinks, hey, let's make beige, boring, inoffensive vehicles like Lexus. We'll make a fortune not having to care about things like steering feel and throttle response and lateral grip.

The problem is people don't buy lexuses because they're hiring. They buy then because they're reliable. Bmws aren't.

rumatt 12-13-2017 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ff (Post 518717)
Sure. I'll bet that a lot of people complained about how comparatively heavy the steering was on older BMWs (because they grew up driving american cars). They probably don't care about what the car feels like, anywhere near as much as they care about what logo is on the trunklid.

BMW wants to sell more cars. Lighter steering probably helps them do that.


No no no no no. It's not just lighter steering. It's light-but-jerky steering. It's seriously messed up.

I'm sure that many people just don't notice it or don't give a shit. But I can't imagine anyone actually *likes* it.

wdc330i 12-13-2017 11:16 AM

I think BMW wants it both ways--to still be perceived as the hardcore driver's car and to cash in on luxury car sales. So they make these schizophrenic cars--typically a base model of XYZ type that you can layer performance (and more luxury) onto. But because they are not really purpose-built for performance, there are always too many compromises. And the longevity/build quality falls short.

All of these recent adaptive technologies are meant to create cars that can adjust to multiple driver preferences and therefore please a wider audience. Jack of all trades, master of none indeed.

But are there any cars out there that don't sacrifice something to achieve something else?

My little 2 series could be tighter with less body roll, the steering could have more feedback, it could be a bit more luxurious, as well. Still, it pleases me every time I drive it, and try to forget all the ways it could be incrementally better. That's easier, of course, on warm, sunny days when I can put the top down.

It remains to be seen what the quality will be like going forward. It's about 2 months shy of a year old with--knock on something--no problems. With my BMWs the start usually foretells the future.

Theo 12-13-2017 01:13 PM

To the comments on the driver adjustable ride modes. I would skip that option wherever possible if i was not leasing or buying new not planning to keep out of warranty. On the used car market it’s just to much complexity leading to huge repair bills.

Looking at old used top dollar AMG’s. They sell for stupid low prices used as no one wants to get stuck with those out of warranty repair bills.

John V 12-13-2017 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdc330i (Post 518730)
I think BMW wants it both ways--to still be perceived as the hardcore driver's car and to cash in on luxury car sales.

Well, they used to do that pretty well. A base E46 323i was a quiet, comfortable car that was relatively capable on the performance front without shouting about it. If you wanted to tip the balance towards the performance side you could get a 330i. If you wanted to tip it further you could get an M3. But they all had the same underlying competence. The average BMW driver probably didn't care about the nice brake feel or reasonable steering feel or the nice body control / ride balance. But it was there.

The thing that happened with the F30 is the subtle aspects of performance went away. The throttle response, brakes and steering got weird and soggy. The ride was Lexus-like in its sponginess. But they also don't have the jewel-like build quality and reliability that Lexus is known for. They're not silent going down the road like a Lexus.

robg 12-13-2017 01:46 PM

The weird steering behavior you guys mentioned sounds pretty bad. It gets confusing since there are now so many different permutations of suspensions, tires, drivetrains and steering systems that all could affect steering behavior. I've noticed that some reviews will say that they've finally fixed the f30s suspension and steering while others still complain.Oddly, it seems like cars equipped with adaptive suspension tend to get more favorable reviews.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JST 12-13-2017 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robg (Post 518750)
The weird steering behavior you guys mentioned sounds pretty bad. It gets confusing since there are now so many different permutations of suspensions, tires, drivetrains and steering systems that all could affect steering behavior. I've noticed that some reviews will say that they've finally fixed the f30s suspension and steering while others still complain.Oddly, it seems like cars equipped with adaptive suspension tend to get more favorable reviews.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is that a lane keeping/warning feature that can be turned off? The Golf has something like that, that is supposed to "nudge" you back in lane if you stray. It's horrifying and terrible and scared the shit out of me until I figured out how to shut it off.

robg 12-13-2017 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JST (Post 518761)
Is that a lane keeping/warning feature that can be turned off? The Golf has something like that, that is supposed to "nudge" you back in lane if you stray. It's horrifying and terrible and scared the shit out of me until I figured out how to shut it off.



Good point - could be that

wdc330i 12-13-2017 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JST (Post 518761)
Is that a lane keeping/warning feature that can be turned off? The Golf has something like that, that is supposed to "nudge" you back in lane if you stray. It's horrifying and terrible and scared the shit out of me until I figured out how to shut it off.

:lol:

Agreed! And don't have it on my 2.

Jeff_DML 12-13-2017 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JST (Post 518761)
Is that a lane keeping/warning feature that can be turned off? The Golf has something like that, that is supposed to "nudge" you back in lane if you stray. It's horrifying and terrible and scared the shit out of me until I figured out how to shut it off.

Yeah I think that was the problem with the new MDX we test drove. Hated it, felt like I was fighting with it.

robg 12-13-2017 04:34 PM

Easy enough to turn off though ...


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Jeff_DML 12-13-2017 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robg (Post 518770)
Easy enough to turn off though ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yeah but then something extra to go wrong(plus you get to pay for it).

ff 12-13-2017 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JST (Post 518761)
The Golf has something like that, that is supposed to "nudge" you back in lane if you stray.

Every driver in FL needs that feature. Seriously.

One step closer to driverless cars...

Jeff_DML 12-13-2017 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ff (Post 518777)
Every driver in FL needs that feature. Seriously.

One step closer to driverless cars...

I hate to say but kind of looking forward to it with so many terribly uncaring drivers

Alan 12-13-2017 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JST (Post 518761)
Is that a lane keeping/warning feature that can be turned off? The Golf has something like that, that is supposed to "nudge" you back in lane if you stray. It's horrifying and terrible and scared the shit out of me until I figured out how to shut it off.

BMWs feature warns you with a steering wheel vibration only and yes it can be shut off ... it is a pretty annoying feature and I always left it off on my 550.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_DML (Post 518767)
Yeah I think that was the problem with the new MDX we test drove. Hated it, felt like I was fighting with it.

Agreed, we leave ours off

rumatt 12-13-2017 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdc330i (Post 518730)
All of these recent adaptive technologies are meant to create cars that can adjust to multiple driver preferences and therefore please a wider audience.

But this is also what baffles me. It's electric steering, which means they could easily create these different modes if they wanted to. The M2 steering isn't ideal, but it's better than the abortion they coded into the F30.

If they were serious about targeting multiple driver preferences, why not just make the M2 steering programming the "sport" mode across all models? The luxury cruiser buyers don't need to turn it on. It's truly a win-win.

robg 12-13-2017 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumatt (Post 518783)
But this is also what baffles me. It's electric steering, which means they could easily create these different modes if they wanted to. The M2 steering isn't ideal, but it's better than the abortion they coded into the F30.

If they were serious about targeting multiple driver preferences, why not just make the M2 steering programming the "sport" mode across all models? The luxury cruiser buyers don't need to turn it on. It's truly a win-win.

Guessing it may have to do w/ suspension/wheels/tires as well. So many things affect steering feel and feedback. My old e46 felt completely different riding on 16s w/ winter tires vs 17s with summer tires. On the 16s it probably did a decent impression of f30 style steering. The M2 benefits by not having runflats and all the benefits that go along with that. In theory, a track handling pack F30 should feel better (w/ Michelin PSS), but they decided to bundle it with their variable ratio steering rack which people complain about. And I bet that they don't change the suspension calibration on those cars to take advantage of not having runflats. I think the M2 uses a different steering rack as well. With software only, I think can only tweak the weight, and maybe artificially add some lightness back if the car loses grip (I think mazda does that for example).

If I test-drive a 17 or 18 330 and it still feels like the 328s i've driven in the past I think that would be a deal breaker. Some of the worst steering i've experienced in a modern car

ff 12-13-2017 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_DML (Post 518778)
I hate to say but kind of looking forward to it with so many terribly uncaring drivers

I know what ya' mean. Dealing with the nuisance drivers day after day has sapped most of the fun out of being behind the wheel.

ff 12-13-2017 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumatt (Post 518783)
But this is also what baffles me. It's electric steering, which means they could easily create these different modes if they wanted to.

That's what I was thinking too. I can't imagine that it would be terribly difficult or expensive to provide drivers the ability to choose modes. Maybe even make it "infinitely" adjustable within high/low limits.

robg 12-19-2017 04:58 PM

So, the dealer loaned me a 330 wagon overnight.

The Good:
-Love the way it looks especially in mineral gray
-Seemed like our 3 year old had more space in the back even w/ his enormous car seat. He wasn't kicking the front seat as much.
-The controls and layout is spot-in. Everything is logical and where you'd expect. Idrive is pretty much perfect at this point. Love the nav system-- much, much better than messing around w/ Siri or Google maps.
-Engine was smoother and less laggy than my old n20. Still prefer the 6 in my old x3 though.
-Ride was good- not harsh and not floaty
-overall pretty good build quality. More solid "thunk" than i'd remembered from earlier F30s.
-Power trunk w/ foot wave opening actually worked well. Love having keyless entry ("comfort access") with a small kid.
The meh
-The ZF 8 speed was a bit smoother than i'd remembered but i still notice it in stop and go traffic.
-The higher seating position of my 08 x3 has grown on me and the seats seem more comfortable as well.
-cargo area is definitely less practical than our x3 due to the lower roof and the way it angles down. Cargo Floor dimensions might be similar.
The bad
-This car had the HK stereo. With the surround sound feature off, it seemed like it played only through the front speakers but with it on it sounded kind of muddy. Even the base system in our x3 sounds better to my ears.
-Steering wasn't terrible-- it's precise, reasonably quick and not overly light. But there's still a vaguenes on-center that could get annoying on long highway drives (makes you feel like you need to keep correcting it).

Overall, when you really grab it by the scruff of its neck, it's fun. The tech and ergonomics are great. More passenger space is nice. I'd miss the on-center feel, seating position and comfort of the x3 on longer trips.

It's probably the best overall balance we are going to find in terms of looks/tech/comfort/performance/practicality/price in a new/newish car at this point. If we decide to stick w/ an SUV, I'm not really sure what areas I'd be willing to compromise on. Could probably be talked into a HEMI powered Durango or Grand Cherokee but my wife has no interest. A better deal could be had on a leftover x3 28i but that's too much car for that engine. A new Cayenne would likely be perfect but way out of my price range. The mainstream crossovers are all noticeably worse in several areas.

lemming 12-20-2017 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robg (Post 519211)
So, the dealer loaned me a 330 wagon overnight.

The Good:
-Love the way it looks especially in mineral gray
-Seemed like our 3 year old had more space in the back even w/ his enormous car seat. He wasn't kicking the front seat as much.
-The controls and layout is spot-in. Everything is logical and where you'd expect. Idrive is pretty much perfect at this point. Love the nav system-- much, much better than messing around w/ Siri or Google maps.
-Engine was smoother and less laggy than my old n20. Still prefer the 6 in my old x3 though.
-Ride was good- not harsh and not floaty
-overall pretty good build quality. More solid "thunk" than i'd remembered from earlier F30s.
-Power trunk w/ foot wave opening actually worked well. Love having keyless entry ("comfort access") with a small kid.
The meh
-The ZF 8 speed was a bit smoother than i'd remembered but i still notice it in stop and go traffic.
-The higher seating position of my 08 x3 has grown on me and the seats seem more comfortable as well.
-cargo area is definitely less practical than our x3 due to the lower roof and the way it angles down. Cargo Floor dimensions might be similar.
The bad
-This car had the HK stereo. With the surround sound feature off, it seemed like it played only through the front speakers but with it on it sounded kind of muddy. Even the base system in our x3 sounds better to my ears.
-Steering wasn't terrible-- it's precise, reasonably quick and not overly light. But there's still a vaguenes on-center that could get annoying on long highway drives (makes you feel like you need to keep correcting it).

Overall, when you really grab it by the scruff of its neck, it's fun. The tech and ergonomics are great. More passenger space is nice. I'd miss the on-center feel, seating position and comfort of the x3 on longer trips.

It's probably the best overall balance we are going to find in terms of looks/tech/comfort/performance/practicality/price in a new/newish car at this point. If we decide to stick w/ an SUV, I'm not really sure what areas I'd be willing to compromise on. Could probably be talked into a HEMI powered Durango or Grand Cherokee but my wife has no interest. A better deal could be had on a leftover x3 28i but that's too much car for that engine. A new Cayenne would likely be perfect but way out of my price range. The mainstream crossovers are all noticeably worse in several areas.

probably going down the same rabbit hole as you.

I loved the Cayenne loaner I just had --but when I drove the E61 recently, that was a very level setting exercise because then I liked the new Cayenne significantly less.

I like the new 3 series wagon. it's HUGE.

does it have enough pep?

wdc330i 12-20-2017 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming (Post 519252)
probably going down the same rabbit hole as you.

I loved the Cayenne loaner I just had --but when I drove the E61 recently, that was a very level setting exercise because then I liked the new Cayenne significantly less.

I like the new 3 series wagon. it's HUGE.

does it have enough pep?

Has anyone driven the diesel version? Is there any point in that? Yeah, the new 3 looks roughly the same size as the E61, which to my mind is actually a good thing (if they're not going to import the 5 wagon). Just wish they wouldn't just give us the hobbled engine versions.

We loved the Cayenne S we drove (short drive), but, wow, they get stratospherically expensive in no time. Plus it had the old entertainment tech. Our 718s is much improved in that regard. At any rate, the X5 was a much better value loaded up.


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