Considering a used Model S as our next car
 

I still think they are some of the best looking 4 door cars on the road right now (up there with the new Panamera and Audi A6/7). Have driven a few over the past 7 years (just short test drives) and always enjoyed the experience. You can now find some 2016 90Ds for less than 50k (with the additional 4/50 Tesla used warranty). I've had on-again off-again interest in them since 2013 or so.

For that price/performance/practicality/warranty the only other cars I could find were a 2014 Audi S7 from CarMax (45k) or a new Kia Stinger GT (~40k). Criteria is fast hatchbacks/wagons with adaptive cruise control and no 4 cyl engines under 50k (and not ugly a la BMW 3/5 GT).

But the more I research, the more downsides I find. Starting from the fact that they are no longer re-conditioning on used cars and you can't even inspect it before putting down a 1k non-refundable deposit (and test driving is completely out of the question apparently). You can request pictures for a car via email but what you get back are typically low res and blurry. There could be a tennis ball size dent on a panel and you wouldn't be able to tell. Some people have luck getting Tesla to fix damage, but most of the time they'll just tell you it's "as is" from what i've read. You can switch your deposit to another car once. It's also not uncommon for it to take months to get your title after purchasing. So it's basically like dealing with a very shady used car dealer.

Then there's all the stuff that affects any Model S (few interior storage cubbies, no sunshade for the roof, poor media player/bluetooth integration, no way to mirror phone based media/mapping apps on the center screen, uncomfortable rear seat, poor panel fit, high chance of random issues, understaffed service depts, UI getting worse with software updates, who knows if Tesla will last the duration of the warranty, etc).

There's definitely a fascination with this vehicle over other choices, but I can't help thinking I'd be somewhat crazy to pull the trigger. It doesn't help that my current car is nearly flawless and does so many things well. OTOH, Tesla owners have some of the highest overall satisfaction with their cars (including the Tesla owners here)

Not sure whether I want to be talked in or out of this. :)

Tesla has not even remotely figured out the high-end preowned car game yet. There are plenty of unpleasant stories out there if you do a tiny bit of Googling.

I personally wouldn't do it, but that's a lot of car for $50k.

Can’t speak to the Tesla CPO experience since I’ve only ever bought new... I would suggest seeing what is avail locally to you and asking to look at the cars before putting the deposit down. Hopefully you will find one in good shape.

But I can speak about the Model S ownership experience. It’s a great car, but huge. Facelifted S have a center console, and most 2016s are facelifted (came out in April builds, and Tesla uses the calendar year for model years). Plenty of storage even without the center console - just not at the driver seat. I kept a small box on the floor to keep things that otherwise would go in a console (pens, tire gauge, etc). As for no shade screen on the roof, that was never a problem (and I lived in AZ most of the time I had the car) - the roof glass is shielded and tinted so there is no heat or glare problem. Tesla does sell some accessory screens that pop in if it is a problem, but I’ve never seen one at Tesla gatherings...

Bluetooth integration works well - I essentially always used my phone to listen to podcasts. The media player and steaming via Slacker and TuneIn also works well. I do wish Tesla would build in CarPlay and Android Auto to give owners a better phone intgration experience though...

I say get one.

There’s a lot of stuff that Tesla hssmtt figures out yet, or is in the process of figuring out.

I actually had a really positive experience with my CPO Model S; the car was in as-new condition and they delivered it with the same attention to detail as either of my new ones. That was a couple of years ago, though, so I don’t know what changes they’ve made to the program since.

As you know, Tesla has over the past six years grown from essentially hand-delivering cars by truck (see ZBBs first) to mass producing a mid-range luxury car. There are a lot of growing pains associated with that. Plus, they’ve been kind of playing around with the CPO program, so that part has been especially variable.

I haven’t taken my Model 3 in for service yet, so I don’t know how they’re coping with a 10-20X increase in volume. My guess is...it’s a challenge.

The good news is that none of my Tesla’s have needed that much in the way of service; the first (from 2013) was the worst, but even that was a better car than the 535 that preceded it, reliability-wise. The other two have been very solid.

I can’t tell you whether to do it or not. I will encourage you, if you decide to do it, to go in with a more open mind than you would with other cars. The car itself will require you to do some things differently, and the sales and service will be enthusiastic but will also have lumps and bumps. If that sounds like something you’d rather not deal with, I get it.

But I can also tell you that the car is amazing, and there’s nothing at all like it on the road. The idea that the A7 is a competitor is kind of laughable; after driving a Tesla all of those cars feel like clanking throwbacks. Like driving a Stanley Steamer. I’ve thought sort of generally about what I might replace mine with if I needed to, and aside from something much sportier (like a Giulia or a 911) I draw a blank.

If you’re going to buy a Stinger, though, I’d get a used one. The drop in value I’ve read is precipitous.

Considering a used Model S as our next car
 

Regarding Bluetooth integration, from what I understand you can still only do forward/back/pause. Even my old 2011 bmw allowed you to scroll through /search artist/album/playlist/etc and would show album art as well. My current car will mirror and allow full control over certain apps such as pandora via Bluetooth (including creating a station / thumbs up/down) - even without CarPlay. It’s kind of ridiculous that they have time to develop fart apps but haven’t really improved their phone integration since 2013. I know Musk hates Apple but there’s still lots of room for improvement even without CarPlay.

Even if you find a local car, they often store them offsite so you can’t even see it by walking around the lot.

Fair points. It’s kind of one of those cars that doesn’t really make sense until you’ve owned one I guess.

Speaking of resale, what’s your guess as to trade in value of a 2016 pre facelift 90D in 4 years? 25k (50% of current retail price) sounds right to me.

The one nice thing about the current used program is that they essentially have a reverse auction on them where prices are reduced by some amount each day.

For sure. I’ve read a bunch of the horror stories. It sounds pretty bad.

That's probably mostly internet noise. For each horror story that gets posted, that are most likely 10-100x satisfied owners that never post. This isn't unique to Tesla -- how many times do good stories get posted on forums?

I'd say ~$25k is probably a fair estimate. Depending on exact specs and original price, $25k is somewhere between 20-27% of original. If its 7 years old and 90-100k miles by then, that sounds about right.

For comparison, my 2013 S 60 had an original price of $82k, and I sold it to CarMax for $27k. It had ~93k miles and was 5.25 years old. That's 33% of original price...

Yes -- back/forward/play/pause. But that's all I needed. It would automatically connect and start playing when I got back in the car. I really only used my podcast app (I use Overcast…). For other streaming, I would just use Slacker or occasionally Tune-In in the car. I had a handful of "favorited" Slacker searches, and the mix of music was decent...

Musk "promised" some sort of mirroring capability years ago, but he also promised more apps for the car. Vaporware...

Given the Tesla following, you'd think pretty often. Their fans are, um, enthusiastic and vocal.

I actually have grown to enjoy being able to have that level of control without having to pickup and mess with my phone. It’s a small thing but it’s one of those real head scratchers given how tesla prides themselves on being a software company and always delivering new features over the air. Sometimes I think they put the interests of the media and Wall Street ahead of regular customers. (A fart app generates clicks - decent Bluetooth integration does not)

Do they atleast let you scroll through radio stations / tracks using one of the scroll wheels on the steering wheel? Last time I checked, you couldn’t (but yet you could control your sunroof).

Considering a used Model S as our next car
 

Ha- yeah. Tesla forums are an unholy mix of people with long/short stock positions, environmentalists, fanboys, musk disciples and regular people just looking for help. I don’t think I’d ever join one. Plus many Tesla owners seem to have upgraded from 2004 priuses or the like so everything is automatically amazing (they don’t realize how good similarly priced competitors are).

But with any forum, there’s random noise and then there’s patterns with certain issues. The recent issues with Tesla cpo seem to be a definite pattern. And just looking at their policies/procedures , it’s kind of a miracle when things go smoothly. Given that I’m now well versed in the ins/outs I think I could navigate it, but it’s still a cluster.

If they return to a halfway customer friendly way of dealing with used cars, I think it would help me get over my hesitancy. Makes me not trust them.

Considering that my car is still in the shop, I haven't experienced the fart app yet :D

As for the steering wheel controls. The Forward / Back buttons on the left side of the steering wheel will scroll through radio station presets when you are listening to the radio. :dunno:

The right scroll wheel does let you set some options on it -- changing the HVAC fan speed or opening the sunroof, although I never changed it from default.

For the audio system, I usually just used a voice search to find something -- worked very well. Something like "Play U2", then the center console would show a list of possible matches, and you could tap to play the one you wanted...

Linky: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/...rica_en_us.pdf

Thanks - I knew about those options but still think the ability to use a scroll wheel is superior. Once you experience it in another car you won’t want one without. Would be so easy for them to add that via software.

I find Tesla's touch and voice controls superior to buttons and switches in other cars (and have never successfully been able to use other cars voice controls -- since they bury them in an annoying menu so that you have to navigate the menu by voice to do anything).

Volume and forward/back are all I needed from the steering wheel buttons in the S… I ualso sed voice controls all the time. Things like "Drive home", "drive to Starbucks", or "Play U2" -- and it would just work. If stating the name for someplace to go or play, it brings up a search list that you can select from… If using a saved location, exact address, or favorited station/playlist, it just started the nav or audio on that...

I've been driving various rental cars for the last few months -- 8 rentals in total; mostly GM products, but also a Ford, Hyundai and an Infiniti. I find the interfaces and controls maddening. The only ones that make any sense to me are the GM cars that had CarPlay (all the GM cars…) -- since I could just use Siri or the touchscreen. But the non-CarPlay interfaces are absolutely horrible (ugly, poorly designed, etc…)

The Ford had some sort of app-link for Waze and some audio apps, but I couldn't get it to work (it recognized the apps on my phone, but I couldn't figure out how to control them or make them work in the car even after finding the documentation online…). If I connected my phone to the car, about 20 minutes into a drive, it would error out since apparently my iTunes-in-the-cloud library is too big, and the Ford Sync system couldn't complete cataloguing it! So much for trying to charge the phone while driving. At least Bluetooth worked.

The Hyundai didn't even have Bluetooth, but at least I could play my podcasts via the USB connection. But phone calls had to use the phone (I had one call come in on my way home one day…). But the audio unit didn't even had a play/pause button -- just forward/back.

The Infiniti has a really weird 2-screen setup (and the screens don't even match -- both have touch controls, but the top one is old-school resistive touch with a plastic-feeling face; the bottom one is modern resistive touch with glass). Apparently the car uses an Android-based OS. When starting the car, 4 default apps show up, but then it says "loading apps" and what seems like 30 seconds later other loaded apps show up for things like "XM Info" and "Performance". No CarPlay. Each app seems to have its own settings screen, in addition to the default settings apps (yes -- more than one since car, audio, and phone all have separate settings!). When I went to pair my phone, all 5 of the bluetooth slots were filled (it is a rental car), and I couldn't figure out how to delete them so I could add my own (tapping on it tried to force a connect, and there was no menu to edit or delete paired phones -- had to find a youtube video where someone showed how to do it).

Anyway… I'll be very happy to get back into my Tesla (hopefully by Wednesday!)

Considering a used Model S as our next car
 

Ha - yeah those systems are all garbage. I was referring more to recen bmw and Audi systems. Bmws voice control is excellent now- you can give natural language commands without concern for menu structure and it works accurately and quickly. Still, I only feel the need to use it for navigation. (You can say stuff like navigate to Starbucks and it will just do it like the Tesla). It’s even quicker to use the steering wheel or idrive controller to navigate media stuff. Of course, it doesn’t have the ability to handle voice integration with Pandora either natively or with Siri but...

The on demand slacker integration with voice in Teslas always struck me as a nice demo but something I’d rarely use. (You’re mostly going to want to select a particular station, album or playlist and let it play). The equivalent on Pandora is creating a new station by selecting a song - something I rarely do.

Also my idrive system never crashes or freezes and it’s super responsive. Really nice system - probably my favorite but I guess it’s spoiled me.

Sounds like I’d have to setup some slacker stations that mimic what I have in pandora and carefully setup some radio presets. I guess that would do for ~70% of my usage habits. I’d also have to setup a usb stick and transfer some music to it if I wanted to simulate some of what I’m able to do now by just connecting my phone via bt or usb. Probably wouldn’t bother doing that though.

In general, that seems to be the pattern with Tesla - it would be fine 70% of the time and annoying / clunky in certain scenarios (not just media integration but in general). It hits some higher highs but also some lower lows.

And of course for what I want to spend, I’m either getting a very outdated Audi system, a Hyundai or a 4 cyl bmw. So I guess I should get over it. :)

My Model 3 doesn’t have satellite radio (I guess none of them do), and I kind of miss it, but also don’t miss the annoying DJs.

I don’t find Slacker to be measurably better or worse than Pandora. Both are irritating at times, and neither lets me discover new music as well as SXM. But they are fine, mostly.

I haven’t driven a car with good Bluetooth integration. The Audis I’ve rented recently are ok, but the car seems like it’s always fighting between its native system and CarPlay.

CarPlay is...acceptable, when it works, which in my experience is about 30 percent of the time.

Honestly, if this is a big deal to you, don’t get a Tesla. I mean this in the most neutral manner possible, but if this is the kind of thing that’s going to stick in your craw, you aren’t going to be happy.

In the Tesla, you just leave the USB stick in the car -- no transferring. The car will catalog it so you can search/browse. I kept one of the super small 64GB sticks full of music in the car, but only used it here and there (and updated music on it every couple years…). Most common use was on road trips when we were out of cell range (uncommon, but the Navajo reservation in AZ and the larger national parks we visited (Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Yellowstone…) have very limited cell coverage. No cell coverage, no streaming.

Considering a used Model S as our next car
 

Yeah I’ve had trouble with CarPlay in Audi’s I’ve rented as well.


Good advice - id probably get over the media integration issues but it’s kind of an additive thing of small annoyances - death by a thousand cuts. I love the design, one pedal driving and instant torque but in every other respect I find the car / potential ownership experience worse than my current one. That might be too much to swallow. It would be a purely emotional purchase .

But if I want everything I like about my current car plus more power and adaptive cruise it’s going to cost a lot more.

If I were considering a used S, I think my thinking would basically be a three question process:

How much do I want it? Answer: [This much]

How bad could the worst possibly be (within realistic reason)? [Could cost me $X over six months if I want out]

Is [answer 2] more or less than I'm willing to spend to satisfy [answer 1] desire?

It sounds like the buying process for a used S could be pretty terrible, but if I wanted the car, I'd hold my nose and deal with it.

I'd try hard to not overthink it or indulge in too much analysis. Given the environment, it doesn't seem like the likely worst case isn't that bad. If I wanted the car, I'm pretty sure I'd take the gamble.

Let's not let this line slide for anyone considering a Tesla. It's insane that you don't have your car back yet.

I really like my Model 3, but I don't advise anyone getting a Tesla unless they are so smitten they are willing to put up with the warts and risks and still have no regrets.

And there's no way I would own one if I didn't have another (ICE) vehicle for backup.

Drove by a Tesla store after taking my son to a doctor's appt today. Decided to go in and check out the latest/greatest Model S. We tried some of the easter eggs (my son liked the Mars theme, while I got a laugh out of the fireplace with Barry White playing). Also tried out Pole Position using the steering wheel.

Anyway, when we got out a guy was standing there and asked me if my kid was in a booster (he will be soon). He told me that he just took one for an overnight test drive, and the booster blocked the seatbelt receptacle so now he's looking at an X (I guess the seatblet buckless are set closer to each other than in other cars). I then decided to check out the LATCH and tether connectors. The lower LATCH connectors are about an inch up from the seat bottom and the tethers are buried in the carpet on the back of the seats (seemsl ike you'd have to use a knife to free them).

Also was curious about the center console. It seemed like a potential improvement but it takes up a lot of space for only really offering spcae for 2 drinks and a phone. Seems like you can squeeze some stuff ahead of the adjustiable cupholders but it won't be easily accessible. The car we sat in had the matte ash trim (light colored) and I didn't care for it. DIdn't fit the character of the car at all. Not sure why they did away with the Obeche trim from the older versions.

I really don't get what they're doing w/ the right steering scroll wheel. They let you choose from a bunch of things that you'd rarely use while driving (fan speed, turning climate control off etc) and yet neglect to even allow you to swich media sources or scroll through songs. Its like the people who design their UI never actually drive. The steering wheel buttons also feel a bit toylike.

Ended up sitting in the seats for a good 20 minutes playing around with the controls and my back got sweaty, so the "vegan" leather is a definite no-go. Would've been better if they offered alcantara as a seat upholstery option like Audi And Porsche do in some models. The seat controls are also hard to reach when the door is closed (not enough room) and the button that moves the seat fore/aft is uncomfortably sharp at the front. The seats themselves seemed comfortable at first but questionable how they'd be on a long drive. I guess these are the newerTesla manufacturered "premium seats", so the "next gen" seats in the various used cars I was looking at would be different.

On a postive note, I liked the alcantara headliner and all the materials had a pleasing appearance. The easter eggs did make me laugh and the touch screen was super responsive. But overall, I left with a longer list of annoyances.

Funny enough on our way home, our car started making screeching noises from the brakes. Drove it to the dealer who told me it sounds like a rock got caught between the rotor and shield (easy fix) but that i'm due for an oil change anyway. So they got me a new X3 loaner and we were in and out in 20 mins. Even though it's a base X3 with a 4 cyl its really nice. They've managed to improve pretty much everything (still prefer the turbo 6 in my car of course). I"m back to being tempted to just get the x3 m40i as our next famly car. I estimate it would only cost $50 more a month overall (assuming a 3 year lease) vs buying a 50k model S and selling it in 4 years. +$100 in fuel -50 in insurance (the lease cost of ~620 pm is a wash with the est depreciation, maintenance, tires and interest/opportunity cost for a 50k used tesla). And, the worst case scenarios for the TEsla result in an even higher cost. Might take a look at an Audi S5 sport back as well.

Anyway, ended up being an unplanned car shopping day. DIdn't realize Tesla offers overnight test drives to anyone who asks. I may try that at some point.

But, as Rumatt points out, it's probably not realistic to think that the tesla could be our only car. As a 3rd car, used for commuting, it might make more sense.

That is some write up Rob, I’m walking away from it thinking your not too crazy about the Tesla. The short lines you wrote about the X3 had a more positive feel.

I love the S5 sportback, I just had another A5 sportback loaner last week and thought it was an awesome car, I really don’t see the need for the S model though if your leasing for some reason the A5/S5 aren’t leasing out too great at least when I was looking back in October/November.

The A4 leases out a lot better and the cars feel exactly the same.

The Model 3 is not a small car. You definitely want something as big as an S?

Thanks Alan. I've rented a bunch of A4s through silvercar, and I just didn't like the sound/feel of the 4 cyl that much. Seems to idle roughly much of the time. Not a fan of BMWs 4 cyl either, though this x3 i have now does idle pretty smoothly. I'll have to see what the actual incremental lease cost is between 4 and 6 cyl versions though.

I know I sound overly negative on the Tesla- I guess it comes frustratingly close to greatness. If they could just be more customer focused I think they could easily improve all the little nits.

Re: boosters. Some work better than others. The wider the base, the bigger the problem, but I found a Recaro that was fine, and the cheapy Cosco from Target actually works well, too.

The booster/seatbelt thing is an annoyance, but it's also a problem on a lot of other cars I've driven--most Fords have absolutely dumb belt positioning. Why is this hard to crack? I really don't know. The VW Golf has basically perfect belt positioning. People should just copy that.

I prefer the Model 3 to the Model S for a bunch of reasons--it's faster, it's more fun, and it's easier to park. On the other hand, if I still had a stroller I don't think the 3 would be big enough as a single traveling car.

I can't tolerate the BMW 4 cylinder and would never buy a car with one. I feel the same way about the BMW automatic, though maybe they've finally figured out shift programming?

Good to know- i haven't bought a booster yet so will check out the Recaro (at the very least it will ensure a greater chance of fitting any rental cars we might have while travelling).

I have no complaints with my x3 35i transmission programming - but I know what you mean based on my previous 528i. Very occasionally, if I'm in "DS" mode and accelerate hard from a stop and then lift off I can get a rough feeling shift. I haven't driven the loaner x3 enough to know how the shift programming is but didn't notice any immediate annoyances. I do think Audi generally does a better job of programming their regular automatic and DCT transmissions. BMW does a much better job with their paddles (Audis feel like cheap plastic) and I find the e-shifter less finicky. And atleast with the new X3, they've finally caught up to (and possibly surpassed) Audi when it comes to interior quality. Regardless, I hope to avoid a 4 cyl regardless of which car I end up with next. Just haven't really enjoyed them in any car I've tried them in- and having a BMW inline 6 again makes me further appreciate not having a 4.

As for the Model 3, yeah, I don't think it's big enough and my wife really wants something with a hatchback (plus she's also an XM fan) . Also, the mandatory vegan leather is a deal breaker for me. The front seats felt like they might be slightly more comfortable than the S. The exterior door handles also seem like they'd become a PITA while trying to wrangle a toddler. Door pockets are nice though. While I was in the Tesla store, a woman who was trying out the backseat in a 3 panicked cause she couldn't figure out how to open the door (She started banging on the window to be let out). I actually kind of like the button-based door release although I could see it getting annoying to always have to remind front seat passengers not to pull the emergency release handle (which pretty much everyone did while i was in the showroom). They probably should've located the lever on the floor a la Corvette.

I think the x3 m40i might be pretty great. The reviews compare it favorably to the Macan and that says a lot in terms of handling, today's CUV's match yesterday's sedans in turning....

I test drove a car yesterday as well, will make a separate thread. I do think the 2016 LCI update to the f30 3-series is significant.

The A4 is a bit of a bland car, though very competent. Just like bmw's, it absolutely needs the 6-speed manual, sports seats, better suspension spec as opposed to rental/loaner car 328i spec. While the engine feels better in the GTI, after gearing, economy and overall feel, I miss the 4-cyl A4 more than the v6 supercharged S4, which had enormous power, but just not as nice to drive over long distances in the real world.

Interesting. Worse ride quality?

Cool- looking forward to reading it. From what I"ve read, BMW has made a lot of effort toward improving steeirng feel with their latest cars. Even on the loaner X3 i have, the steering did feel better than the F30s I've tried as well my current x3.

The x3 with the s58 does seem like a really good package. I've been thinking about the x3M a lot lately as a replacement for the x5, but reality is the m4.0i is probably a better daily driver at this point. I'm sure the extra power and M bits are nice, but I'd trade a little of the excessive power for less ride harshness I think. I'll definitely check it out when the time comes.

kind of off topic, but who the heck can afford a Porsche Panamera. I priced out a base P4 sport turismo yesterday and was at $127k before I even got excited about the cool features or the bigger engines. That is well into an e63 wagon price range.

I have read some reviews that indicate the ride quality could be overly firm on the x3 40i - but the test vehicles were likely equipped with the optional 19 or 20" wheels. Assuming that isn't an issue, I'll be tempted. My current x3 has near perfect ride quality with its base suspension and base wheels.

Haven't Panameras always been ridiculously expensive?

Interesting. I guess I'm just not picky about my seat material. I've never once thought there was any issue with the leather. :dunno:

For some reason, any synthetic leather causes my back to get super sweaty. I did some googling and found a few posts on Tesla forums where people mention that it happens to some (but most are fine). GUess I'm one of the few who are sensitive to it. I remember returining a rental VW Passat (which I"ve never done before), after driving it for 15 minutes for the same reason. Just got uncomfortably hot and sweaty. VW is another OEM that now forces synthetic leather on most of their lineup. Hope it doesn't become a trend. I will say that the feel and appearance of Tesla's vegan leather is quite nice.

I'm now remembering a test drive of bmw e46 323 (long ago), that had leatherette. The sales guy was very proud of it for some reason and was like "i bet you can't tell its not leather". I was like "actually, I can and I don't like it". lol

What makes it weird is having the reaction through clothes. Although, I suppose, I may be assuming too much.

Lol. Think it’s just due to the lack of breathability of the material.

Doesn't Tesla offer ventilated seats? I had them on the JGC and the Macan. Really nice to have on a luxo car.

Not so much the ride quality. Comparing a 2010 b8 a4 6-speed manual sports suspension 18" wheels vs. 2014 b8.5 s4 6-speed manual... Two items stand out.
* Engine revs and response tuning. The s4 revs higher on the highway. Nuts. As a result, it is highly responsive to right foot when doing long cruises at 80mph. The 2.0T 6th gear is geared longer.
* Steering. Neither win the steering prize. On back roads, the s4 was more fun due to response of the chassis and the car. Both of them sucked on the highway due to overly weighty steering. I swear sometimes I needed two hands on the wheel to turn in sweepers. Ugh. The a4 wasn't great but had slightly more feedback due to hydraulic, but the speed sensitive weighting was screwed up. The s4 was electric and felt great on test on back roads and aggressive turns, but again was not a steady, calm ship for doing a 350mile stretch after days of skiing.
* MPG's. They had about the same size tank, which means the s4 had a much less useful range. I achieved a real 30 to 33mpg in the a4 on long stretches, compared to 23 to 25 on the s4. Same speeds.