Tesla Model Y
 

Best quotes I've seen so far

I'm not on the market for a compact SUV, but I don't actually hate the way it looks. It's a slightly bigger, fatter Model 3. A little heavier, slower, and more expansive, but you get more space.

Elon said he expects to sell more of them than the S and 3 combined.

And.. made a joke that Ford killed Sex :bustingup (by taking the 'e', forcing him to use 3)

more of Aztek then a SUV:dunno: guess that is what the big one is like too and I think they tried to play the Aztek off as a SUV.

I’m really surprised that they didn’t do this before the 3.

Oh yay, all the ugliness of a model 3, with the same dumb interior, but now on stilts. And with a taller greenhouse, because that was really what was missing to make the 3 look truly awkward.

I believe it'll sell like gangbusters, but ... yuck.

:lol:

Big improvement https://jalopnik.com/there-i-fixed-t...you-1833324958

Looks too much like a minivan. That won’t sell.

Yeah, that actually looks worse

I mean...it's fine? It's hardly an SUV. It's more like a slightly bloated hatchback. Is it attractive? Not especially, though the Model 3 has kind of grown on me from every angle except dead on rear.

It's conservatism in design choices is precisely what Tesla needs. It should be easier to build than the X. And in a world where Audi still hasn't launched the e-tron (someday soon!) and Jag is offering an i-Pace that has less range from 20 kwh more battery, the specs are pretty hard to beat.

+1

Much worse. That was awful.

I prefer the Torchinsky box. Having had a swept rear roofline in the Macan, I'm not a fan in a utility vehicle. Give me the shape of the JGC (or something even boxier) any day. The damned X6 may be started this trend.

I'm meh on this car. It seems like they did the right thing and played it safe. The Model 3 is roomy enough to begin with, this shouldn't be so bad. What I don't get is how on earth three rows fit in there. Did I read it wrong?

I agree with this comment on autoblog

Looking at the Y again I actually might prefer it if they didn't lift it because of the hatch

Hideous.

And obsolete in two years when the mainstream automakers all load up in this EV Crossover space.

Tesla is the Palm Treo all over again. I’m happy for early adopters who benefit. But I’m happy to wait for a mainstream automaker with a dealer network.

People have been saying that—wait two years for the mainstream makes to flood the market—at least since I bought my first Tesla, 6 years ago.

Don’t be so sure. Tesla’s battery tech is maybe farther ahead than ppl think.

That’s their power play, so to speak.

Tesla Model Y
 

It’s not as bad as I thought it would be - just bland. Kind of reminds me vaguely of a Ford - maybe the cmax?

But I don’t think styling is going to make or break it. They just need to demonstrate that can build cars consistently and properly and with maybe less histrionics from the ceo.

Their real advantage is the supercharger network imo. Hard to tell yet how well VWs penance network is going to compete. If it weren’t for that I’d get an etron all day over this if I were in the market.

Ooooooohhhhhhh man. :cool:

In terms of other manufacturers steamrolling Tesla, I love how everyone forgets about the supercharger network as if it's not a big deal. It's YUGE. Changes everything.

Okay.

Supercharger network doesn’t change market saturation.

We’ve talked about this.

You can mop up suburbanites. But you won’t penetrate the urban market in time for the biggies to come with their EVs.

I don't know. Looking here, it appears that there are a lot of DC fast chargers out there that are not Superchargers. VW has had some problems with Electrify America, but they're still rolling out charging locations pretty fast. It always seemed odd to me that Tesla created a standard that is locked to their cars - they missed a potential revenue stream by not enabling Superchargers to charge other cars.

That can be deceiving for a few reasons. First, other DC fast chargers aren't as fast as Superchargers. Second, in most cases a DC fast charger will only have a single outlet. If a car is already there when you get there, you're hosed. There's also rarely any kind of on-line status available. Third, in many cases the chargers run by third party networks aren't reliably on line when you get there, which can be a problem if you don't have much divert range/time. Fourth, a lot of those chargers are at car dealers. And finally, there are two other DC fast charger standards, so whichever one you have you can't use the other.

Which isn't to say that there aren't other charging options out there. Just, from a practical standpoint, it's hard to overstate how much better the Supercharger network is for actual travel/use than anything else out there. It's a HUGE advantage for Tesla.

I was about to post on my 340i thread about how Teslas are a much better fit for suburban commuters. A predictable, regular drive, not more than 150miles. For someone like me who lives in an urban setting but drives out to further rural areas, it's not a good solution.

EVs generally have a problem with urban penetration. Tesla has so far spent the most time and effort trying to solve that by building out a robust charging network; they have at least a 6 year head start on that.

I guess I don’t see how “the big boys” are any better situated to address that problem, especially given that they don’t really seem to be spending much time or money to address it.

When the e-Tron finally launches—I guess this year sometime?—it will have a shorter range and be more expensive than the Model 3, and will demand more energy per mile. It will not have a dedicated charging network of any kind, and will have to compete for space at the relatively few public DC fast Chargers that exist.

It will have a dealer network, where you’ll be able to go buy one. That’s an advantage, especially if you like the traditional car buying experience.

Forgive me if I think Tesla has a longer head start than most people think, and that “the big boys” aren’t going to be competitive with their first gen EVs*—and maybe not even with their second.



*the i3 and other sub100 Mile cars aren’t even gen 1; more like gen zero.

I don't dispute that Tesla's charging network is a huge competitive advantage. I'm not comparing Tesla's to other EV's, I'm comparing EV's to ICE (with Tesla being the representative EV as it's so far ahead in terms of charging).

There is only a charging "problem" if you live in an urban (or remote rural) area and for some reason must have an EV. No EV, no problem...

I don't see how you count in the bucket with the "urban" people. You have a house with property on which you can park and charge your vehicles. That's all you need to be counted as "rural" as far as tesla ownership is concerned. I recall you saying you didn't want to run electrical wiring, but that's independent of being urban.

In terms of driving around an urban area like the NYC suburbs? EV's excel at that.

Your road trips? Yeah, the EV might not be great for them, but that's a road-trip trip problem, not an urban area problem.

I agree with JST and rumatt — I guess that’s not surprising since we are all Tesla owners.

Here’s my take.

Most Tesla owners are currently suburbanites that have garages and have put in 240V outlets or wall chargers. That gives them plenty of range for commuting (and just charge nightly). If you own a house, you can find a way to charge at home — which will cover 90%+ of most people’s charging needs. The Supercharger network enables road trips to most places - which is a huge advantage to Tesla since it already covers most of the populated parts of North America, Europe and China (with pockets in ANZ, Japan and a few other places,

Apartment and condo dwellers may have a harder time charging at home — and that is a big problem to solve. Tesla has added “urban” Supercharges to try to help, and workplace charging may work for some. But overall, this will need solving.

In my case, I have nearly 95k miles on pure EV, including over 20k of road trips, some of which were not to very plug friendly places (take a look on PlugShare around the Navajo reservation in NE AZ — and we went through there twice in the shortest range Tesla made to date (the 60 kW Model S, with a mex range of 208 miles). My Model S was took us as far south as San Diego, as far North as BC and Quebec, as Far East as DC/Maryland, and visited the westernmost point in the continental US in Oregon. The Supercharge network powered most of those miles, but we filled gaps with slower CHAdeMO and L2 chargers, and even RV parks. It was quite a journey...

JST makes a good point that most of the other DC charging networks only offer a single charger at each station. But that’s starting the change. VW’s dieselgate settlement funded the Electrify America network, which is following the Tesla blueprint. We noticed an Electirfy America station under construction a couple miles from our house today — it has 8 charging pedestals and is very similar to a Supercharger site — in a parking lot just off a freeway with a Starbucks and a few restaurants nearby...

Supercharging doesn’t complete the charge in under 20minutes. Which means it’s a so-so solution.

Once you extend beyond your 120mi radius you basically set aside 2 hours to charge? and that’s supercharging. Not a great solution.

So then your argument is “have another car”.

Okay. I think this debate is really dumb.

As for “EVs excel in the city” —have you lived in NYC and tried to charge when there’s a two hour time limit in the garage of the condo association? Sure. That works great for me too. Not.

Let’s be honest: this is still for the one percenters. And the market is near saturation. And then Tesla is faced with a cliff.

I’m not anti EV. I just think the current infrastructure sucks and it’s just a pain in the ass still.

Furthermore: the styling is hideous and homely.

If I was looking at a Model S? I wouldn’t. It’s already dated. I’d be getting a 7 or S.

The Model 3 looks like a Martian drew an AMC Gremlin. No thanks.

Most charging is overnight. While it takes hours, it only feels like seconds since it happens while the car is parked. If you can charge at home, you rarely need public charging for daily use. Since moving to OH, I actually only charge at 120V — which has been fine since I’m able to replace my commute miles overnight...

Supercharging on road trips can take anywhere from 10 min to an hour. The thing is that you only need to charge enough to get to your next stop, with a little bit of reserve for contingency. You don’t always fill to full (like you do in a gas car...). On our road trips, we found that the longer stops made the overall trip more relaxing — and our stops averaged 45min in the Model S...

It you live in a city and don’t have charging at home - that is a problem. But Tesla provides the urban Superchargers as one option. Charging at work is another option - and may employers are putting charging in. This is still a problem to solve.

You have not had a chance to visit. Sorry to say but you are incorrect. I'm most definitely not in a suburb. Not by any measure, not for EV-charging purposes. Everything is harder in an urban area, the permits, the inches of space, construction, everything.

Assuming I spend but 4 but not 5 digits on wiring, I could park and charge *one* vehicle but not more. We usually have two cars (out of three or four) on the street for various reasons. We do not park our vehicles on the "property", that's a suburb. Forget the condos, 80% of the single family homes around me do not have a private garage or driveway.

Again, these are all moot arguments. The world is not out of gas (which I don't use a ton of anyway), I have no problems at all. If for whatever reason EV's become mandatory, infrastructure and convenience will have improved big time and I can do some version what everyone else around me is doing.

I'm perfectly happy with my cars as they are, not chomping at the bit to jump to the future of driving. If anything, over the years, driving has become less and less fun... I enjoyed driving much more from 2000 to 2010. Too bad I only had crappy grad student cars in the 90's.

I'm completely lost. You started this track of discussion by saying

I countered by pointing out that Tesla still has a huge advantages in terms of charging infrastructure and this will play a major role in them not being steamrolled by these mainstream automakers you mentioned.

And your counter is that Tesla's charging infrastructure isn't perfect? :toetap: Whatever criticisms you have of the current state of Tesla's infrastructure, it's 10x (100x?) worse for all the other manufactures.

I agree with you. It's dumb and makes no sense at all because it completely missed the original point, which was that Tesla is not anywhere near fearing the competition, at least yet anyway. The market is theirs.

I don't think we're at the point where EVs make sense for everyone, or even (perhaps) the majority of people. I wouldn't argue otherwise.

And there are a lot of people for whom the EV circle doesn't square. That's cool. EVs won't be mandatory for a while, if ever.

But, honestly, I think the tradeoffs for EVs are just that--tradeoffs. I *hate* going to the gas station, because there isn't an easy one around here, and it's a pain in the ass to get to. Not having to go to the gas station is a real improvement in my quality of life.

And, as I've said elsewhere, the range on my car is about the same as the V8 M3, both urban and highway. Supercharging takes longer than getting gas, but as long as I'm not going farther than 1 supercharger hop the difference is immaterial. For longer distances? The difference starts to bite, but is it unworkable? Not really.

I'm not the evangelist for Tesla I once was; I don't love the way Elon runs the company, and I'm not happy about the way he treats his employees. At the same time, Tesla has remade the future of the automobile. That's not a bad thing. I'd love to have something like an E46 with a stick, but no one was going to build me one of those anyway.

If my choice is between some dumb BMW soft-roader with a ZF 8 speed and a Tesla pretty much anything, give me the latter. At least I won't be killing the planet quite as fast, and my car will be more fun to drive.

Answer the question. How long does a full charge take on a supercharger?

The question is literally irrelevant, and also it depends on how big your battery is, and how drained it is.

As a practical matter, my car is always done charging by the time I’m done eating.

Also depends on how much of a charge you need to get to your next stop (with some buffer). Out of my over 150 Supercharger visits, I’ve only done a full charge a handful of times (less than 10).

And I agree — the car is usually done charging before I’m ready to move on. And you can take time for a bio break, snack or meal.

Roughtly 1/10th the time it takes the competition on their level 2 chargers.

Why do you keep switching the discussion?

You said:

How is the Model Y going to be obsolete in 2 years after a bunch of competitors produce less desirable products? That is what I'm asking you about. I am NOT advocating or arguing that EV's are for everyone, despite you continuing to go down that path.

Porsche Taycan charging is supposed to be faster. I wanted a data point.

Obsolete after two years: because the looks are already hideous and by then you’ll have EVs from all of the Germans in the space.

Even right now: would most buyers opt for the I Pace or the Y?

I’m happy to continue this with you for the next two years.

Would most buyers opt for an iPace? I doubt it. The specs on the iPace aren’t so great, and the charging network is way worse.

I mean, that’s part of the reason Tesla sales dwarf iPace sales.

Fwiw, the much larger, much heavier model x is something like 23 percent more efficient on the highway than the jag. That’s a *big* difference.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/31...ut-efficiency/

The Model y will obvs just widen that advantage.

Given the choice between a Macan, GLC or Y, I just think the nod goes to the brand names.

Maybe for some people, but at the same time Tesla has built pretty aspirational brand equity. And I’m telling you, the iPace isn’t even close to the current gen Teslas in terms of tech/efficiency. None of those others will be, either. The range on the Merc, in particular, sounds like it’s going to be laughably bad.

Teslas biggest challenge will be lack of sales and service locations. Thats a big deal, and it’s one that I’m not sure they can overcome.

But the cars themselves aren’t going to be obsolete in 2 years. Hell, a 2012 P85 is actually more efficient and has better specs than a brand new iPace. In 2 years, my Model 3 is still going to be capable of 0-60 faster than almost anything else on the road, and it will undoubtedly still be among the longest range EVs in the world.

Let me refine what obsolete means to me: if Merc, BmW and Porsche come out with EVs like the Audi E-Tron GT and Taycan —those are “fresh” vehicles from manufacturers that can do LCI-type updates in 3 years and new generations every 7 years. Plus the dealer network.

If as a consumer you could buy a Model S, you have to cross shop it with a Taycan. And if a Taycan can do a full charge in 30min, the penalty for EV use is minimized.

This is why I was asking how long it takes. On a typical NY to Boston trip, you’re at the limit of the car and need to charge each way. Both cities suck for EV infrastructure so you need to rely on Supercharging. Hoping there’s not a line of cars ahead of you.

That would add unnecessary stress to me or a lot of my colleagues who run that gauntlet a lot because our Corp HQ is NYC but the labs are in BOS. And flying is meh and Amtrak is $175 each way and always late. Hence the questions about specifics.

If my life or most city dweller life was easy to charge overnight this is, like many of you point out, not even a point. But whenever I park in NYC, it’s clear to me that even if each garage has 5 chargers, there’s probably 10-15 EVs fighting to charge.

I don’t think EVs are dumb. I think Tesla is ahead of the curve. And they will be remembered down the line. Like the Newton, Palm Pilot, Treo and BlackBerry.

We are stuck in a loop. Can you help me break it?

1. You: other brands will make Model Y obsolete in 2 years
2. Me: the supercharger network will remain a huge differentiator for Tesla
3. You: supercharges aren't fast enough.
4. Me: Huh? At least they exist, and are vastly better than the competition
5. GOTO 1

You "give the nod" to the brand names despite them having vastly inferior charging networks? Do you not think being able to take a road trip in your car is important to EV car buyers?

Then you mentioned inconvenience of driving BOS - NYC which suggests you actually care a lot about road trips. Have you compared the experience of making that trip in a Tesla to all the other brands you're giving the "nod" to. Hint: it's a huge win for Tesla.

Then you mention theoretical max charging speed. Even if the Taycan can do a full charge in 30 minutes (we'll see if that plays out in the real world) it doesn't help you if there are no chargers on your route. Are you arguing that in the 2 year time-frame we're discussing there will be as many Porsche charging stations as there are Tesla Superchargers?