View Full Version : Howard Co (MD) Police are completely out of control
(And, no, I didn't get a ticket.)
This morning headed northbound on US 29 toward Columbia (a 6-lane divided, limited-access highway for those not familiar) I see this one HoCo officer running speed in a place where this same officer (a heavy-set black man) often runs speed. This stretch of Rt 29 in a series of hills and valleys. This officer was set up at the top of one of these hills targeting southbound traffic. And he's doing so in a way I find offensive - trunk lid up obscuring the lightbar sitting along the shoulder.
So far, pretty normal. And I'm glad I'm heading northbound rather than southbound into his target zone. Then I get to the top of the next hill.
On the left shoulder of the southbound lanes are two Maryland State Highway Admin vehicles. First a van with flashing orange lights with a flashing arrow sign mounted to the roof. In front of it was a large "cherry-picker", again with flashing orange lights, with it's basket extended straight up. This is all positioned right behind a bridge abutment so as to partially obscure the setup from oncoming drivers. State highway workers (who probably drove the vehicles to the site) were standing around.
And up in the cherry picker basket is another Howard County officer holding binoculars and a radio, looking for targets across the next valley/hill. No radar or laser from him, so no advance warning possible.
But at least 3 highway workers and two highway department vehicles were employed in this two officer speedtrap.
I swear. I wish Howard County would just f**king raise their damn property taxes to fund their operations and leave motorists alone. This type of bullshit revenue enhancement exercise should outrage everyone.
That's fucking ridiculous.
John V
03-28-2007, 10:23 AM
That's absurd.
Start writing a letter.
Once you factor in the cost to use and operate the special vehicles, and the cop cars, and to pay officer salaries, it's hard to believe they're making enough money from speeding tickets to break even.
Wouldn't it be better to station an officer with a speed gun in the woods somewhere, or behind a bridge support, and radio ahead to a waiting fleet of cruisers?
That's absurd.
Start writing a letter.
FYI, the cherry picker was hiding behind the bridge for Rt 216. The cop was up on the next hill, right before the bend leading down to the Patuxent.
John V
03-28-2007, 10:30 AM
Once you factor in the cost to use and operate the special vehicles, and the cop cars, and to pay officer salaries, it's hard to believe they're making enough money from speeding tickets to break even.
Wouldn't it be better to station an officer with a speed gun in the woods somewhere, or behind a bridge support, and radio ahead to a waiting fleet of cruisers?
Typically what they do is position 4-8 cop cars along the side of the road. One guy stands at the trunk of the last car in the row, trunk up, aiming a laser gun at oncoming traffic. Then another cop walks out into traffic (yes, on a highway with a 55MPH speed limit) and physically stands in the lane pointing to drivers to pull over. Then the fatass cops in the remaining cars get out and write tickets, batch-style.
TD, thanks for the update, but it's for this exact reason that I do not travel on US-29, EVER.
I really do think this deserves a letter, but I would have no idea where to send it.
rumatt
03-28-2007, 10:31 AM
What I hate is when all the traffic is doing 75, and they cherry pick someone out and give them a ticket.
There are drivers who are truly a danger and need to get tickets. Weaving in and out, tailgating like crazy, etc. If what they are doing is an attempt to ticket the people who deserve it most (rather than someone driving fast but safely), then I don't mind what they're trying to accomplish. If you are going to give 100 tickets, you might as well give them to the 100 biggest assholes.
Their way of achieving it seems a bit odd though. :ack: Also, they may be on the hunt for people with radar detectors. If they see you speeding in the distance, the guy might pull you over and give you a ticket regardless of what the gun said.
Can't we get something going that shows that speed limits are BS and what causes the problem is bad drivers and get this on the news and ideally all the way up to 20/20?
Nevermind, the audience would be the perpetrators.
Maybe we are better off talking/writing letters to Discovery Channel/TLC/Nat. Geographic and have them do a documentary.
What I hate is when all the traffic is doing 75, and they cherry pick someone out and give them a ticket.
There are drivers who are truly a danger and need to get tickets. Weaving in and out, tailgating like crazy, etc. If what they are doing is an attempt to ticket the people who deserve it most (rather than someone driving fast but safely), then I don't mind what they're trying to accomplish. If you are going to give 100 tickets, you might as well give them to the 100 biggest assholes.
Their way of achieving it seems a bit odd though. :ack: Also, they may be on the hunt for people with radar detectors. If they see you speeding in the distance, the guy might pull you over and give you a ticket regardless of what the gun said.
That exact thing happened to me two weeks ago. I was doing 80 in a 65 just following traffic and I got picked out of the crowd.
I normally always see the cop cars but never the bikes. I have not gotten a ticket in over three years so I am safe with traffic school, but still I know exactly what you mean.
I almost felt like saying, "So what made me different then the other 10 people next to me on the freeway doing the same exact speed!" Really really dumb.
Cops routinely use cherry pickers on RT50 heading into OC MD on holiday weekends. They look as if they are maintaining billboards.
A women I work with was pulled over by a cop who stood in the highway. She yelled at him for scaring the crap out of her when he jumped into her path and he let her go :lol:
There was an article in Car&Driver a month or so ago about Ohio highway patrol officers in airplanes. They actually made it sound more "fair" in that they would watch driving habits for a few miles before deciding who to pull over.
Sharp11
03-28-2007, 11:45 AM
I really do think this deserves a letter, but I would have no idea where to send it.
You could send in an op-ed to your local newspaper or just a letter - either way, you'll get a call from city hall ;)
Ed
Man... I'm glad I live in AZ.
While we have to put up with photo-radar on surface streets and on one freeway (coming soon to more...), at least we have what I consider a very good rule:
Only the an AZ Dept of Public Safety (ie the Highway Patrol) can pull over somone on a State or Federal highway (ie Interstates, state freeways, or US Highways). City or County officers cannot patrol those roads -- they can only do surface streets or county highways. And County Sheriffs can only patrol in unincorporated areas unless a municipality contracts with the Sheriff to be their police force -- which means you can't have 2 authorities pulling you over in the same municipality.
In addition, they can only pull you over for exceeding the limit by more than 10 MPH (state law -- even the photo-radar machines must be set to trigger at 11 MPH over).
On top of that, we generally have reasonable limits here: rural interstates are 75MPH, rural highways are 65MPH, Freeways are 65MPH in most parts, 55MPH downtown where its frequently congested, etc.
John V
03-28-2007, 12:58 PM
On top of that, we generally have reasonable limits here: rural interstates are 75MPH, rural highways are 65MPH, Freeways are 65MPH in most parts, 55MPH downtown where its frequently congested, etc.
US-29 is a bit weird where TD saw the speed trap. A bit south of the road with the cherry-picker-positioned-trooper, the road turns from a limited access highway to a more traditional US highway with at-grade crossings, traffic lights, and more non-vehicular traffic. So a 55MPH limit is not unreasonable, though I usually find myself doing 65 on that stretch of road on the rare occasion that I'm forced to drive it.
And to be entirely fair, I've whizzed by the speed traps at 65MPH and not gotten a look from the police. I think they're typically looking for the gross offenders - the people doing 15-25over.
It's still ridiculous.
John V
03-28-2007, 02:08 PM
It would not be safe for anyone to be going 99MPH on US 29, at least not in the area TD is talking about. I would certainly hope they'd hand out a ticket for that. I highly doubt your MIL is going that fast on that stretch of road.
On the other hand, I've cruised at 90MPH on I-95 (which is rarely patrolled between the Beltway and HoCo MD, and when it is, it's in obvious locations).
It would not be safe for anyone to be going 99MPH on US 29, at least not in the area TD is talking about. I would certainly hope they'd hand out a ticket for that. I highly doubt your MIL is going that fast on that stretch of road.
On the other hand, I've cruised at 90MPH on I-95 (which is rarely patrolled between the Beltway and HoCo MD, and when it is, it's in obvious locations).
Depends on the time of day.
John V
03-28-2007, 02:54 PM
Depends on the time of day.
That's true. When I find myself on I-95 it's usually 3PM-5PMish and 9-10PM and I never see police.
My point was there are no areas around here which are like Stuka's middle-of-nowhere freeway to the racetrack.
That's true. When I find myself on I-95 it's usually 3PM-5PMish and 9-10PM and I never see police.
My point was there are no areas around here which are like Stuka's middle-of-nowhere freeway to the racetrack.
When I head home late from Columbia, that same southbound stretch of 29 will be empty. And the car somehow always finds itself going 100+ before I realize it.
I guess that's one good thing about living in a "tax the crap out of everybody" state of CA, as Plaz can attest to. Speeding and cops are rarely an issue here.:ack:
I can, indeed, attest to that. One of the things I miss.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/howard/bal-officer0618,0,4238092.story?coll=bal-local-howard
rautox
06-18-2007, 12:31 PM
I came along a few minutes later. I saw the car had strange damage for a car-car collision. Now, it's obvious what took out the bumper and hood. And I think anyone who's watched those guys wander into oncoming traffic to pull people over saw this coming... unfortunately. Wow.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/howard/bal-officer0618,0,4238092.story?coll=bal-local-howard
Heard about that on the news today. Insane that they put officers in that position just to raise revenue.
That's really sad news. One can interpret the story in a number of ways, but it looks to me like one county's hunger to gain speeding revenue has now caused the death of a good man and the years-long psychological trauma of a young woman who was guilty of something that all of us do.
I think anyone who's watched those guys wander into oncoming traffic to pull people over saw this coming... unfortunately. Wow.
Yup. Doesn't surprise me one bit.
I came along a few minutes later. I saw the car had strange damage for a car-car collision. Now, it's obvious what took out the bumper and hood. And I think anyone who's watched those guys wander into oncoming traffic to pull people over saw this coming... unfortunately. Wow.
I've started to see officers do that more and more around here. The other day (I was driving the wife and dog so I wasn't speeding), with the blinding sun in my face, two officers were on foot under the shade of a tree on a 35mph zone (one with he gun, the other presumably for flagging people down) right on the edge of the road. I just could not see them. I suddenly see flag officer just move around and that is when I finally noticed them at all. I instinctively swerved away from the motion and got a dirty look from the officer through my RVM.
WTF. I can easily see some distracted person in a large vehicle clipping one of them, or worse. That really is a dumbass thing to do. Law enforcement procedures need to be overhauled. Boston is still dealing with a case of a fleeing car running into a taxi cab killing the driver, a male passenger just back from Iraq, and leaving gf of passenger with severe brain and other injuries. All because the officer was chasing the suspect through a 25mph, crowded neighborhood over a minor traffic violation.
That really pisses me off. Yes runaway driver is a dick, but really, you couldn't mail the ticket, or whatever? It's really not worth it to do stupid shit like that.
John V
06-18-2007, 12:57 PM
Tragic. The poor guy was just doing his job - yet how reckless of HoCo to put him in this position. Maybe they will rethink how they pull people over for speeding now.
(This is common practice all over MD - it's not unique to HoCo).
Tragic. The poor guy was just doing his job - yet how reckless of HoCo to put him in this position. Maybe they will rethink how they pull people over for speeding now.
(This is common practice all over MD - it's not unique to HoCo).
I'm not saying it isn't, but I've never seen it done quite as brazenly in Montgomery Co. They stand along the edge of the road and point. But they don't physically block your path.
Just get a photo-radar van...
Just get a photo-radar van...
Ho Co would never do that as those vans use radar, which will provide adequate warning to those with radar detectors. Nope, Ho Co is a slave to it's LIDAR.
clyde
06-18-2007, 01:41 PM
Ho Co would never do that as those vans use radar, which will provide adequate warning to those with radar detectors. Nope, Ho Co is a slave to it's LIDAR.
From your linked story:
Wheeler was standing in the road to flag down cars that other officers using radar flagged for a traffic infraction.
Regardless, photo radar is an entirely different ball game. In just about every implementation in the US, photo radar is managed and paid for by contractors that are paid with a cut of the income generated. There's no downside to the municipality to do it this way. For every radar detecting user, there are how many hundreds of speeders without one?
I am actually inclined to suspect the radar reference was an error or oversimplification in the story. Ho Co NEVER uses radar.
I wonder if they were using the cherry picker again.
Ho Co would never do that as those vans use radar, which will provide adequate warning to those with radar detectors. Nope, Ho Co is a slave to it's LIDAR.
Then put in fixed photo units -- with embedded road sensors. That's what the City of Scottsdale does out here (plus 4 mobile vans - although you really don't need a radar detector to ID them as you can spot them far enough out to avoid them)...
Insane that the population of MD has not revolted to this level of draconian speed enforcement.
But no one ever does because no one ever fight their speeding tickets.
I'm not saying it isn't, but I've never seen it done quite as brazenly in Montgomery Co. They stand along the edge of the road and point. But they don't physically block your path.
I've seen officers on 695, 95, and rt50 stand IN the fast lane to pull people over.
I've seen officers on 695, 95, and rt50 stand IN the fast lane to pull people over.
How much of that do you think is direction, and how much is just officer sensibility? If I were a police officer, I don't think they could pay me enough to actually stand in a lane of travel. Maybe from the shoulder, behind an immovable concrete barrier.
rumatt
06-18-2007, 02:11 PM
What I don't get is.... If you were going to stand in the middle of the lane to pull someone over, wouldn't you be ready to jump out of the way if they didn't stop?
Maybe both the driver AND the officer were not paying attention???? :?
In just about every implementation in the US, photo radar is managed and paid for by contractors that are paid with a cut of the income generated. There's no downside to the municipality to do it this way.
Sure about that? As you know, the CA red light cameras were turned off for a time b/c of this practice. The manufacturer does not share in the revenue any longer b/c private companies taking a cut of law enforcement fines wasn't acceptable. I don't know anything about photo cameras, but the concept is the same.
How much of that do you think is direction, and how much is just officer sensibility?
I'm guessing you haven't met many MD State Troopers. :ack:
What I don't get is.... If you were going to stand in the middle of the lane to pull someone over, wouldn't you be ready to jump out of the way if they didn't stop?
Maybe both the driver AND the officer were not paying attention???? :?
Part of the fun is the reaction of the driver being pulled over as the cop scares them by standing in the middle of the road. Many of these people don't actually realize how long it takes to stop a vehicle doing 80mph (or that you can't just swerve without consequence.)
John V
06-18-2007, 02:27 PM
Insane that the population of MD has not revolted to this level of draconian speed enforcement.
Exactly what do you suggest we do? :dunno:
They're not very creative with their locations for speed traps. I've never been nabbed because I know where they trap and I slow down in those areas. Easy.
I'm guessing you haven't met many MD State Troopers. :ack:
Part of the fun is the reaction of the driver being pulled over as the cop scares them by standing in the middle of the road. Many of these people don't actually realize how long it takes to stop a vehicle doing 80mph (or that you can't just swerve without consequence.)
Doesn't seem like a particularly prudent or responsible means of educating them.
What an insane practice. I've never seen anything like that in NJ.
clyde
06-18-2007, 02:38 PM
Sure about that? As you know, the CA red light cameras were turned off for a time b/c of this practice. The manufacturer does not share in the revenue any longer b/c private companies taking a cut of law enforcement fines wasn't acceptable. I don't know anything about photo cameras, but the concept is the same.
The last I heard about the red light camera stuff in San Diego was that the issue was that the contract forbade the yellow light duration from being changed after the cameras were installed.
Exactly what do you suggest we do? :dunno:
Pick up your assault rifles.;) :D
Pick up your assault rifles.;) :D
:lol:
And make sure you have good brakes.
rumatt
06-18-2007, 03:23 PM
And make sure you have good brakes.
Sorry for hitting you officer, but my BMW came with sh!tty single-pot brakes from the factory.
The last I heard about the red light camera stuff in San Diego was that the issue was that the contract forbade the yellow light duration from being changed after the cameras were installed.
The end result of the lawsuit was to eliminate revenue sharing. The camera company gets a flat fee per interseciton per year, not a piece of every ticket. The restriction on the yellow light times didn't help either, of course. They now have a minimum length, not a maximum length or any restrictions on changing the length. The camera company is also different after the lawsuit.
It's not important though. It was a question of state law and could conceivably be different from state to state until the Feds pre-empt the law. The facts I looked into also revolved around the San Diego policy. Apparently the cities operate the red light camera programs and share the revenue with the state. Finally, the San Diego law suits were settled, not tried to conclusion, so where the line is drawn is still open to interpretation.
clyde
06-18-2007, 07:49 PM
The end result of the lawsuit was to eliminate revenue sharing. The camera company gets a flat fee per interseciton per year, not a piece of every ticket. The restriction on the yellow light times didn't help either, of course. They now have a minimum length, not a maximum length or any restrictions on changing the length. The camera company is also different after the lawsuit.
It's not important though. It was a question of state law and could conceivably be different from state to state until the Feds pre-empt the law. The facts I looked into also revolved around the San Diego policy. Apparently the cities operate the red light camera programs and share the revenue with the state. Finally, the San Diego law suits were settled, not tried to conclusion, so where the line is drawn is still open to interpretation.
Interesting. Thanks!
clyde
06-18-2007, 07:51 PM
I can easily see some distracted person in a large vehicle clipping one of them, or worse.
Yeah, because god knows a distracted person in a tiny little subcompact wouldn't clip one of them, or worse.
Yeah, because god knows a distracted person in a tiny little subcompact wouldn't clip one of them, or worse.
I knew someone would bring this up. In a large vehicle, you will be closer to the cops while staying in your lane, which in this road, considering the traffic, you have to. Nevermind that larger vehicles, like delivery trucks, vans, large trucks etc obviously can;t handle worth shit.
So no, I wasn't talking about SUV's, but a large SUV is still tougher to maneuver than a civic.
And of course, a dude in a motorcycle could still take them out. Just pointing out that there are a lot of large vehicles, and they clearly would have a tougher time avoiding them.
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