AWD cars with manual transmissions

[JST]

Other members in the household have mentioned being happy with an AWD car, which led me to think--just how many AWD manual cars/trucks are out there these days? I thought I'd put together a list; please help if I missed any. I'm including SUVish type things, but not pickup trucks.

Acura: None.
Audi: A4 2.0T, A4 3.2, S4 and RS4.
Buick: None.
BMW: 328xi, 335xi (soon), X3, 528xi (?)
Cadillac: CTS will have AWD, but I can't find any info on whether you can get AWD and a stick at the same time. I'd bet not.
Chevrolet: None.
Chrysler: None.
Dodge: Nitro (base model), some of the pickups?
Ford: None
Honda: CR-V?
Infiniti: None. G35x is auto-only.
Jaguar: X-type
Jeep: Liberty. Not sure about the Compass or Patriot, but don't care enough to look.
Land Rover/Range Rover: None.
Lexus: Are you kidding?
Lincoln: None.
Mazda: Speed 6
Mercury: None.
Mercedes: None.
Nissan: Xterra
Pontiac: Vibe (still?)
Porsche: Carrera 4, Cayenne (V6)
Saturn: None.
Subaru: Impreza, WRX, STi, Legacy GT, Outback (?)
Toyota: Matrix (at least once upon a time), FJ Cruiser
Volkswagen: None.
Volvo: S40 T5, S60R, V70R (but only through '06--no word on whether the new V70 will have a manual at all, let alone a manual with AWD).

That's a pretty piss-poor selection.

[mbarber]

This is exactly the criteria I had when I bought my A4 (1.8T) a few years back. I wanted something with AWD that could be had with a stick and offered a high degree of fun. All I could really find was WRX and the Audis... And I wanted a well-built interior as well, so the A4 won. Now the S40 has come on to the scene (and the S60/V70Rs), but I mean there must be a lot of snow-belt people that like driving cars and want these basic drivetrain features, right?!? And it's not like I can afford a Gallardo or C4S (or even an RS4)... Anyone know of mfgrs that have such products in their pipeline, or of any other alternative (New or CPO) in the $20-30K range?

[equ]

Welcome, and check out the Subaru LGT thread in the Perseverators sub-forum.

[nate]

Lamborghini: all

[FC]

Welcome mbarber.

I am quite sure there are '07 V70R's with MT that have been delivered, but in all likelyhood production will end soon on those anyhow. And IIRC, no more MT on Outbacks.

[lemming]

yep.

it is a pretty poor selection, JST. it's one reason why i migrated over to RWD/manual. i just couldn't find the right fit for me in the AWD world. but on a day like today with the Nor'easter and the ice on the roads, i sort of rue my choice.

one day out of the year isn't bad, though.

it's better than every other day (which has been the case in the past).

it's very difficult to find AWD linked to an engine that has nice power characteristics.....and then try to find that combination linked to a true manual transmission. very, very difficult indeed.

[equ]

Lem,

That's very true. This is my exact problem right now. Actually the 5 with dunlop ws 3d's did quite well - but I can only imagine with awd. The problem is (as I proved to myself yesterday) that awd bmw's suck - they lose all semblance of bmwness.

The LGT is nice but certainly doesn't have a smooth linear powertrain. The best yet is the car I'm looking at and it's still not a no-brainer against equally priced audis/bmws. Not to mention lsd-equipped cts-v's. ;)

Equ

[Theo]

Other members in the household have mentioned being happy with an AWD car, which led me to think--just how many AWD manual cars/trucks are out there these days? I thought I'd put together a list; please help if I missed any. I'm including SUVish type things, but not pickup trucks.

Acura: None.
Audi: A4 2.0T, A4 3.2, S4 and RS4.
Buick: None.
BMW: 328xi, 335xi (soon), X3, 528xi (?)
Cadillac: CTS will have AWD, but I can't find any info on whether you can get AWD and a stick at the same time. I'd bet not.
Chevrolet: None.
Chrysler: None.
Dodge: Nitro (base model), some of the pickups?
Ford: None
Honda: CR-V?
Infiniti: None. G35x is auto-only.
Jaguar: X-type
Jeep: Liberty. Not sure about the Compass or Patriot, but don't care enough to look.
Land Rover/Range Rover: None.
Lexus: Are you kidding?
Lincoln: None.
Mazda: Speed 6
Mercury: None.
Mercedes: None.
Nissan: Xterra
Pontiac: Vibe (still?)
Porsche: Carrera 4, Cayenne (V6)
Saturn: None.
Subaru: Impreza, WRX, STi, Legacy GT, Outback (?)
Toyota: Matrix (at least once upon a time), FJ Cruiser
Volkswagen: None.
Volvo: S40 T5, S60R, V70R (but only through '06--no word on whether the new V70 will have a manual at all, let alone a manual with AWD).

That's a pretty piss-poor selection.


A3 has no manaul with awd?
MKII TT 3.2 has manaul with AWD afaikr.
Lexus IS 250
Are you sure you cant get a C class with manual and 4matic
Also no passat with 4motion and manual?

Those are my additions

[TD]

A3 has no manaul with awd?
MKII TT 3.2 has manaul with AWD afaikr.
Lexus IS 250
Are you sure you cant get a C class with manual and 4matic
Also no passat with 4motion and manual?

Those are my additions
A3 does not offer a manual with AWD.
The Lexus does not offer manual with AWD. Yes, you can get the IS250 with a stick. But not when you add AWD.
No AWD Passats can be had with a stick.

The TT and C-class I'm not sure about. I think at least at one time you could get the C-class with AWD and a stick. I'm just not sure if you still can.

[JST]

A3 has no manaul with awd?
MKII TT 3.2 has manaul with AWD afaikr.
Lexus IS 250
Are you sure you cant get a C class with manual and 4matic
Also no passat with 4motion and manual?

Those are my additions

No manual quattro A3. If they made one, I'd own one. You can get quattro only with the VR6, and only with DSG.

You may be right about the TT; their US web site isn't fully functional yet.

IS250 comes with AWD, but (like the G35) only with a slushbox.

Passat only offers AWD with the 3.6 and a slushbox.

There is a 4matic C280, but the C280 only comes with an automatic. The C230 and C350 can be had with manual transmissions, but not AWD.

[dan]

I'm glad I have no interest in AWD vehicles

[JST]

I'm glad I have no interest in AWD vehicles

Yes, it would be nice to not have to make routine car trips to Ohio and New York in the winter.

[Theo]

No manual quattro A3. If they made one, I'd own one. You can get quattro only with the VR6, and only with DSG.

You may be right about the TT; their US web site isn't fully functional yet.

IS250 comes with AWD, but (like the G35) only with a slushbox.

Passat only offers AWD with the 3.6 and a slushbox.

There is a 4matic C280, but the C280 only comes with an automatic. The C230 and C350 can be had with manual transmissions, but not AWD.

carmudgeons liscense revoked!!

JK - Thanks for the corrections

[mbarber]

Anyone know of any older cars that are bigger than A4/3er/WRX in terms of size, but offer the prized AWD/manaul combo? I can think of the old Audi S4/6 ('92-'98), but has there ever been a good/great car that's bigger than an A4 or TT?

In the present, it seems like AWD has become an ever-more important feature on new cars (M-B putting AWD on all models, BMW increasing AWD, even the Ford Fusion using AWD as a selling point), but none (or barely any) of these vehicles have a manual. I realize that AWD systems, especially electronic ones, can be difficult to pair with a stick, but does anyone else feel that there's a void in the current offerings? It'd be nice to have more offerings!!

[ff]

In the present, it seems like AWD has become an ever-more important feature on new cars

And everyone is advertising it as a feature that improves handling. Problem is, consumers believe it.

[zach]

And everyone is advertising it as a feature that improves handling. Problem is, consumers believe it.

Well, in the right hands, it certainly improves moderate to deep snow handling.

[zach]

Anyone know of any older cars that are bigger than A4/3er/WRX in terms of size, but offer the prized AWD/manaul combo? I can think of the old Audi S4/6 ('92-'98), but has there ever been a good/great car that's bigger than an A4 or TT?


http://washington.uwc.edu/depts/compsci/cps139DEf05/kuhnb1299/images/pa6/niceeagle.jpg

Edit: this might not satisfy the "good/great" criteria...

[FC]

Anyone know of any older cars that are bigger than A4/3er/WRX in terms of size, but offer the prized AWD/manaul combo? I can think of the old Audi S4/6 ('92-'98), but has there ever been a good/great car that's bigger than an A4 or TT?

There is the Volvo S60R/V70R. I don't think it's "great" but it seems pretty good to a lot of people. It is roomy.:dunno:

[BahnBaum]

Pretty sure this is available with a MT.



http://www.truckpaper.com/images/Truck/fullsize/74405589.jpg

Alex

[SARAFIL]

FWIW, 535xi and 535xit are not on your list as they are not initially available with the manual at start of production (not sure why), but by late summer the 6-speed will be available.

[bren]

Can you adjust bias on the Evo?

I know in the STI you can turn it all the way up to the rear, making it more RWD like.

And which is less econo shitbox-ish, the STI or the Evo?

Wihch of the two would you people pick?
I'd take the STi. :eeps:

The AWD proportioning maxes at 59% rear bias.

[rautox]

They're both econo-shitboxical. Having lived with a wrx, and the joys of paper-like sheet metal, and given only those choices, I'd suffer the higher buzz lightyear factor and go evo.

It's not a rwd car, and doesn't pretend not to be. Not a bad thing. It is a rally car.

[JST]

FWIW, 535xi and 535xit are not on your list as they are not initially available with the manual at start of production (not sure why), but by late summer the 6-speed will be available.


The 6M 535xit is intriguing, but so expensive that it's probably not on my list--though, given the right lease program, who knows?

[equ]

Can you adjust bias on the Evo?

I know in the STI you can turn it all the way up to the rear, making it more RWD like.

And which is less econo shitbox-ish, the STI or the Evo?

Wihch of the two would you people pick?

If you're flooring it enough through the turn, with a good awd system you would be getting a rear bias dynamically. ;)

Even my boring, dull a4's chassis would wake up briefly in those conditions.

[Sharp11]

Having lived with a wrx, and the joys of paper-like sheet metal,

Are you certain the sheet metal is thinner on less expensive cars?

I saw a Discovery show a few years on automotive design. They claimed all cars used the same standard gauge metal and it was the way in which it was shaped and supported that gave the impression of more solidity.

I'm not certain I buy it, but the sheet metal on my BMW 330i would appear to be no different from that on my wife's Subaru - this is using the unscientific finger press test.

Ed

[Rob]

fwiw, my ex had a Jag X-type and i have never driven anything that provided more of a feeling of comfort, confidence and assurance in the snow than that car with the possible exception of a snow mobile (and it looses out in the comfort factor). It was pretty amazing. Of course, I haven't driven any four wheel drive SUVs in the snow.

[rautox]

Are you certain the sheet metal is thinner on less expensive cars?

If my leg made contact with the fender while checking under the hood, it would dent. And when I was buffing out some parking lot tracks just prior to sale, I had to be very careful to not leave a crease.

I don't think it had anything to do with cost. I go about 140 soaking wet, and have never had issues like that with any other vehicle.

:dunno:

[John V]

Yes, it would be nice to not have to make routine car trips to Ohio and New York in the winter.

I used to make routine (at least two, typically three per winter) trips from Columbia to Cleveland in the winter with my (RWD) M3. With the right tires, it was never a problem, even when we got the huge snowstorm in early '03.

Further, I used to make routine trips from Cleveland to Milwaukee, which I submit to you is even worse, in a (RWD) second-gen RX-7 turbo. With the right tires, it was never a problem. When I had the wrong tires on that car, it was disastrous.

However, I can understand the desire for AWD. It does add a degree of confidence.

[FC]

My V70R did just fine getting out of our frozen-solid driveway this morning where the 330i would have struggled even with Blizzaks.

[JST]

I used to make routine (at least two, typically three per winter) trips from Columbia to Cleveland in the winter with my (RWD) M3. With the right tires, it was never a problem, even when we got the huge snowstorm in early '03.

Further, I used to make routine trips from Cleveland to Milwaukee, which I submit to you is even worse, in a (RWD) second-gen RX-7 turbo. With the right tires, it was never a problem. When I had the wrong tires on that car, it was disastrous.

However, I can understand the desire for AWD. It does add a degree of confidence.

No, I concur. And AWD is definitely not a requirement; but frankly I could give a shit about ultimate handling performance on what is essentially the family truckster, so summer tires are wasted on that car, and it seems silly to swap all seasons for snow tires.

Basically, on the second car what I'm looking for is turn-key, all-weather, don't-have-to-worry-about-much capability. I'd like something that handles decently, doesn't embarass itself in a straight line, is nice to drive around town, has decent cargo capacity, and can be driven in 98 percent of the weather without much problem. It doesn't have to ever autocross or even take an offramp at more than about 6/10s, and while I believe that traction control should be defeatable as a matter of principle, I've never turned the T/C off in my wife's cars.

The Audi is nearly perfect for what we want. It's main flaws are the horrifyingly bad throttle surge that afflicts it in stop-and-go traffic and a lack of rear seat space (important if you are riding in the back trying to keep the baby happy).

FWIW, the Audi managed to break itself free of 3" of sheet ice this morning on the left side of the car and scramble over a 6" snow/ice bank that had been left by the plows. I have my doubts about whether any 2WD car could have done the same, no matter what tires it was on. Moreover, the Audi's AWD system, despite its lack of LSDs, did very well on our ice-encrusted side streets.

[clyde]

Other members in the household have mentioned being happy with an AWD car, which led me to think--just how many AWD manual cars/trucks are out there these days? I thought I'd put together a list; please help if I missed any. I'm including SUVish type things, but not pickup trucks.

Acura: None.
Audi: A4 2.0T, A4 3.2, S4 and RS4.
Buick: None.
BMW: 328xi, 335xi (soon), X3, 528xi (?)
Cadillac: CTS will have AWD, but I can't find any info on whether you can get AWD and a stick at the same time. I'd bet not.
Chevrolet: None.
Chrysler: None.
Dodge: Nitro (base model), some of the pickups?
Ford: None
Honda: CR-V?
Infiniti: None. G35x is auto-only.
Jaguar: X-type
Jeep: Liberty. Not sure about the Compass or Patriot, but don't care enough to look.
Land Rover/Range Rover: None.
Lexus: Are you kidding?
Lincoln: None.
Mazda: Speed 6
Mercury: None.
Mercedes: None.
Nissan: Xterra
Pontiac: Vibe (still?)
Porsche: Carrera 4, Cayenne (V6)
Saturn: None.
Subaru: Impreza, WRX, STi, Legacy GT, Outback (?)
Toyota: Matrix (at least once upon a time), FJ Cruiser
Volkswagen: None.
Volvo: S40 T5, S60R, V70R (but only through '06--no word on whether the new V70 will have a manual at all, let alone a manual with AWD).

That's a pretty piss-poor selection.
Jeeze, is the Audi coming off lease that soon?

[JST]

Jeeze, is the Audi coming off lease that soon?

November.

[lemming]

you're going to have to lose the manual tranny requirement.

like you said.....it's just the truckster and you'll still have a manual in the e90.

[TD]

FWIW, the Audi managed to break itself free of 3" of sheet ice this morning on the left side of the car and scramble over a 6" snow/ice bank that had been left by the plows. I have my doubts about whether any 2WD car could have done the same, no matter what tires it was on. Moreover, the Audi's AWD system, despite its lack of LSDs, did very well on our ice-encrusted side streets.
I drove the E90 in today. :eeps:

[John V]

It was amusing to me that I was the only person in my department to get to work at 7AM yesterday. The parking lot was almost completely empty.

They hadn't plowed our neighborhood at all, which meant three inches of heavy, wet snow over a sheet of ice. The main road from my house to MD-175 was completely unplowed, and I had to jump a 1.5' snowbank to get onto MD-175.

Even lacking an LSD, this car is just unstoppable in the white stuff with these tires.

[clyde]

I drove the E90 in today. :eeps:
I could have driven the RX-8 with the Hankook RS2s in today if I still had it.

Of course, it had a real LSD.

[JST]

you're going to have to lose the manual tranny requirement.

like you said.....it's just the truckster and you'll still have a manual in the e90.

Fortunately, at this point it isn't me issuing the requirement.

I could have driven the E90 in, too, were it not for the fact that no one plowed our alley. Grr.

[FC]

On my ice-covered driveway, kudos to the V-rated Wintersport 3D's.

[lemming]

On my ice-covered driveway, kudos to the V-rated Wintersport 3D's.

this makes me think of the poor (aka stupid) souls who had driven their 5 series and 6 series yesterday on the packed snow (on the highways) with their hazard blinkers on.

obviously they were on "all-season" radial tires.

:)

as someone else opined, snow tires seem like a bright idea for anywhere the temperature goes below 32F regularly and there is a chance of snow. it is an absolute for RWDers.

or. you can just look like a complete dumbo with white knuckles.

[FC]

Some loser in a souped-up civic hatchback almost plowed into my wagon on the way to the vet. Yup, performance rubber on 17" bling wheels.:rolleyes:

[equ]

After some more parking lot stuff yesterday/today, I'm ready to call it quits for rwd+snows (at least without lsd or porsche-like weight distribution). It took ten tries to get it right in one spot and five in another later in the day. They aren't even that deep, only a couple of inches of slush but it's way slipperier than snow. I easily spent an hour of my day dealing with rwd... Going skiing this evening (new england skiers: this is the dump of the season) and have to take 96 Impreza instead of the newer comfier bmw as I don't trust it get over dumps in parking lots up in Northern Vermont.

A highlight of the day was a favor I did for someone on the west coast. He's buying a used CayS local to me and wanted me to check it out. I know these are not porsche driving conditions but it had to be done today (14F). From the dealership until the highway, the slushy twisty drive on 19" PS2's was err...interesting... PSM on but to no avail with huge slip angles on turns. Good thing I didn't stuff the beautiful white car into a pole. I had enough of a moment that I remember which pole I'm talking about. :eek:

[lupinsea]

Um . . .
4 wheel traction
6 spd manual
Fun to drive
Not a truck
Handles bad weather, don't have to wait for plowed roads
Can be 100% RWD biased
Torque split 50/50 front to rear otherwise
4-door, 5 seat, convertible for the family
Std suite of 100% defeatable traction and stability programs
Can be had with LSD or locking differentials as desired


http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=428&g2_serialNumber=2



The Wrangler might work if you can put up with
Well, it's not really a "truck" or an "SUV" exactly, so put up with a Jeep
Crappy milage (16-19mpg range if you're lucky)
Limited towing capacity (3500 lb. for the 4-door)
4WD system instead of AWD (4WD on slippery surfaces only, wet pavement has too much traction)
Not quite as crisp handling as, um, anything, really.


Think about it, though. When good weather comes around you can take down the top (or even remove the doors) so the whole family can enjoy the top-down driving. :D

Oh, and IF you have messsy kits, the interior is designed to be washed out with a garden hose.

[BahnBaum]

Today, on my way to lunch in this sunny 75 degree weather, I purposely got the no PSM GT2 totally sideways at every turn since a car nut coworker of mine wanted to see what it was like driving a non linear power delivery car with no traction control.

If I saw someone doing that, I think I'd consider calling the police.

Alex

[BahnBaum]

Do you also call the police on yourself when you go over the speed limit?:dunno:

No. But going over the speed limit and getting "totally sideways at every turn" are too very different things. Aren't they? :dunno:

Alex

[BahnBaum]

What makes you think going say, 80 in a 65 is any safer than going sideways at 30?

Oh, I don't know, common sense maybe?

Based on where you work, I assumed your lunchtime "sideways at every corner" jaunt isn't out in the middle of nowhere. If you're out on empty wide open roads doing this, then I'd take back my call the police comment.

Alex

[JST]

Oh, I don't know, common sense maybe?

Based on where you work, I assumed your lunchtime "sideways at every corner" jaunt isn't out in the middle of nowhere. If you're out on empty wide open roads doing this, then I'd take back my call the police comment.

Alex

But if the roads were wide open and empty, you wouldn't see him and wouldn't have to make the decision.

[BahnBaum]

But if the roads were wide open and empty, you wouldn't see him and wouldn't have to make the decision.

Believe it or not, I was thinking that when I posted my original response.

Oh well, I just have to keep in mind that experienced drivers sideways on city streets in their non-sunroofed porkchops are safer then speeders.

Alex

[JST]

Believe it or not, I was thinking that when I posted my original response.

Oh well, I just have to keep in mind that experienced drivers sideways on city streets in their non-sunroofed porkchops are safer then speeders.

Alex

Especially speeders in SUVs.

Those things are a menace.

[BahnBaum]

Today I work out in the sticks.

30mph sideways action requires some room.

Okay, then I'll call the LAPD back and tell them I made it up. ;)

Alex

[John V]

I drove around completely sideways in Columbia with a co-worker for about 20 minutes the other night to demonstrate linear power delivery and how much left-foot braking helps control slip angle.












Of course, we never exceeded 20MPH, we were in a vacant parking lot and there was a couple inches of snow on the pavement. :P

[lemming]

I drove around completely sideways in Columbia with a co-worker for about 20 minutes the other night to demonstrate linear power delivery and how much left-foot braking helps control slip angle.












Of course, we never exceeded 20MPH, we were in a vacant parking lot and there was a couple inches of snow on the pavement. :P

:lol: