View Full Version : Are the Mini and New Beetle one generation cars?
While the Mini and Beetle differ widely, IMO, in their target audience and in their execution, they are both modern retro updates on classic, quirky, "cult" vehicles from the past. The cars they update were essentially unchanged (or only minorly changed) throughout their production runs.
IMO, the Beetle is already stale and, while I like the Mini a lot, it will be stale within a few years, if not sooner.
Can they possibly be updated in their modern incarnations? Or will production just cease when they become too stale. And, if they are updated, will they lose that link to the past that contributes to their appeal?
(I guess could have thrown the PT Cruiser into this list as well but as it was lame from day one, I chose not to.)
the MINI gets a minor facelift this year. I think in another couple of years they'll probably have a 2nd-gen MINI, different enough to clearly distinguish it from the current model, but still retaining the look/feel of the classic.
So to answer your question, no.
the MINI gets a minor facelift this year. I think in another couple of years they'll probably have a 2nd-gen MINI, different enough to clearly distinguish it from the current model, but still retaining the look/feel of the classic.
So to answer your question, no.
Well, with the Mini, as BMW established a dealer network for the car, you'd have to assume that they will attempt a second generation (and maybe even different models).
But will it work?
Well, with the Mini, as BMW established a dealer network for the car, you'd have to assume that they will attempt a second generation (and maybe even different models).
But will it work?
I think so. Actually, I think they need to do a better job of marketing the car to potential customers. I still constantly hear people shocked that the car can be had for just $20,000. People seem to know that it's made by BMW, and instantly assume it's a $30,000 car. For what you get, it's still one of the best bangs for the buck car out there. (assuming you can live with the miniscule rear legroom)
I'd have to agree with your first post. I think it will be tough to capture the same enthusuasm as a 2nd generation of a car that is a modern replica of an unadulterated classic. Maybe I'm wrong.
The MINI retained most of the designs from the mini. While the Beetle just looks remotely like the old Beetle, it basically used an existing VW platform and put a Beetle shell over it and sell it. The MINI's are selling really well everywhere, whereas the Beetles pretty much only do well in the U.S. People in Europe hated it, IIRC.
The original Beetle was designed by Porsche with the engine in the rear. The new one, IIRC, is basically a Golf.
--Andrew
The MINI retained most of the designs from the mini. While the Beetle just looks remotely like the old Beetle, it basically used an existing VW platform and put a Beetle shell over it and sell it. The MINI's are selling really well everywhere, whereas the Beetles pretty much only do well in the U.S. People in Europe hated it, IIRC.
The original Beetle was designed by Porsche with the engine in the rear. The new one, IIRC, is basically a Golf.
--Andrew
The new one IS a Golf with a different body. Hence, I really doubt that here will be a second generation New Beetle.
(and maybe even different models).
Mini SUV :D
The new one IS a Golf with a different body. Hence, I really doubt that here will be a second generation New Beetle.
Except that VW would then lose its only convertible, the New Beetle Convertible.
The (original) mini was pretty much the same for what, like 50 years? upgrades were just bigger wheels, brakes, maybe more power.
There will be a minor facelift on the MINI, but I wouldn't say it will be a "second" generation MINI. I'll be quite happy if the MINI remains a one-generation car for the next 50 years. :)
--Andrew
clyde
01-14-2004, 11:36 AM
I'll be quite happy if the MINI remains a one-generation car for the next 50 years. :)
Don't count on it. Before the current one launched, they were already getting to work on what the next gen would be. From what I remember reading, BMW wanted the second gen to be cheaper to produce...a LOT cheaper. They also wanted it to happen fast. The sooner they could do a new car, the sooner they could stop using the Chrysler engine. Initially, the speculation was that the current gen was not going to last more than four model years. Then the launch rolled out around the world...and reality hit. The worldwide demand was much greater than expected. Their expected excess capcity was utilized and the car is well on it's way to being profitable. Expect to see the current gen for a little while longer, but not too long. They still want to get away from the Chrysler engine and nothing else in BMW's parts bin will fit (without making such drastic changes that the switch becomes more trouble than its worth).
I would expect the second gen to be bigger, heavier and have more power (like just about every other automotive evolution), but retain similar characteristics and design cues. It will be instantly recognizable as a MINI, but distinct from the current car.
My .02
Cool, I will be getting another one then, if the next gen still looks and drives as good. If it'll be even cheap, I wouldn't mind getting a stripped one and turning it into a track car.
--Andrew
lemming
01-14-2004, 11:53 AM
yeah.
i think the mini brand resonates in the US and in europe so it's a winner for BMW (far better than its rolls royce proposition, for example).
not only can they groove at the lower end of hte car market with stuff taken from the 1 series and 3 series (suspension bits, electronics), they also have a potential market of people who are substantially differentiated from VW Golf buyers who will feed into the 3 series.
it is a good anchor point at the lower end of the car market for BMW's growth.
that the Mini has incredible handling and superb fit and finish keep it distinctive.
the new beetle does not do much dynamically well so all that it and the PT Cruiser have to rely upon for the most part are looks and it's a safe bet that gen x and gen y people would be pulled more to the scion cars than the pt cruiser or new beetle.
the mini also contributes greatly to the bottom line in terms of momentum. as long as they keep it fresh, BMW can say with a straight face that BMW sales keep increasing and so forth. even though the E65 is down almost 10% YTD (bad news) it is offset by the mini sales and SAV sales.
The old beetle, while not sold here for years, continued to sell in other parts of the world up until last year I think. It was made in Mexico and I remember reading an article about the last one to roll off the assembly line. Any reason why the new beetle couldn't be treated the same?
The PT Cruiser has captured the hearts of the old street rodders. People mod them like crazy. Ever been to a PT Cruiser gathering? My brother has one (hey, don't ask me - he also has a first year CTS). He has never surfed that I know of and currently lives in Indianapolis, but was very excited to get his rear view mirror hand carved out of wood to look like a surf board. The pedals light up too. The list goes on. Listen to the owners and how much they enjoy playing with their cruisers, and you have to believe there is a niche market there for awhile.
The Mini? Who knows? They are selling as many as they can make, aren't they? I know there is still a wait if you want to buy the supercharged model around here. I have to believe that they expect it to be a brand far into the future though. Both the company and the dealers made a significant investment in promotion, new buildings for the dealerships, a new dealership network . . .
Another new MINI is coming in a few short years with other models on the boards.
The PT Cruiser has captured the hearts of the old street rodders. People mod them like crazy. Ever been to a PT Cruiser gathering? My brother has one (hey, don't ask me - he also has a first year CTS). He has never surfed that I know of and currently lives in Indianapolis, but was very excited to get his rear view mirror hand carved out of wood to look like a surf board. The pedals light up too. The list goes on. Listen to the owners and how much they enjoy playing with their cruisers, and you have to believe there is a niche market there for awhile.
I know that I'm not the target demographic, but I really don't understand the PT Cruiser. That vehicle ranks very very near the bottom of my list in terms of appeal. I have always thought it reflected so strongly on the buyer as being a big dork. It's just this goofy, white bread, macaroni and cheese middle America thing.
Granted, as I said, I am not the target demographic. But I just can't see those being produced all that much longer.
lemming
01-14-2004, 05:56 PM
The PT Cruiser has captured the hearts of the old street rodders. People mod them like crazy. Ever been to a PT Cruiser gathering? My brother has one (hey, don't ask me - he also has a first year CTS). He has never surfed that I know of and currently lives in Indianapolis, but was very excited to get his rear view mirror hand carved out of wood to look like a surf board. The pedals light up too. The list goes on. Listen to the owners and how much they enjoy playing with their cruisers, and you have to believe there is a niche market there for awhile.
I know that I'm not the target demographic, but I really don't understand the PT Cruiser. That vehicle ranks very very near the bottom of my list in terms of appeal. I have always thought it reflected so strongly on the buyer as being a big dork. It's just this goofy, white bread, macaroni and cheese middle America thing.
Granted, as I said, I am not the target demographic. But I just can't see those being produced all that much longer.
atta boy, 'mudgeon. way to alienate rwg.
:smile:
i don't understand that car, either, but plenty of people buy it, so once again i'm in the minority over a car.
The PT Cruiser has captured the hearts of the old street rodders. People mod them like crazy. Ever been to a PT Cruiser gathering? My brother has one (hey, don't ask me - he also has a first year CTS). He has never surfed that I know of and currently lives in Indianapolis, but was very excited to get his rear view mirror hand carved out of wood to look like a surf board. The pedals light up too. The list goes on. Listen to the owners and how much they enjoy playing with their cruisers, and you have to believe there is a niche market there for awhile.
I know that I'm not the target demographic, but I really don't understand the PT Cruiser. That vehicle ranks very very near the bottom of my list in terms of appeal. I have always thought it reflected so strongly on the buyer as being a big dork. It's just this goofy, white bread, macaroni and cheese middle America thing.
Granted, as I said, I am not the target demographic. But I just can't see those being produced all that much longer.
atta boy, 'mudgeon. way to alienate rwg.
:smile:
i don't understand that car, either, but plenty of people buy it, so once again i'm in the minority over a car.
That's just the image I have of PT Crusier owners. I'm not claiming to be right.
I saw a lot of those PT Cruisers when I was in Minnesota. They look kindda cool IMO.
--Andrew
clyde
01-14-2004, 07:59 PM
I've said it before and I'll repeat it now. I like the way the PT Cruiser looks. In fact, I like it a lot. If it performed like the SRT-4... :dunno:
I like PT Cruisers too. I also like '51 Mercs , deuce coupes, and other cars of that lineage. I would say that most BMW owners are not familiar with those cars, or at least not enthusiastic about them.
GregE_325
01-15-2004, 09:32 AM
Perhaps there is room for growth for the Mini. With the coming of the 1-series, as well as the Mercedes A-class that will be here in a couple of years, there would seem to be a market that the Mini could expand into. But for them to really grow, they are going to have to expand their dealer network, or allow BMW dealers to also sell Minis. There are a number of states (like mine for example) that do not have a Mini dealership at all, and don't appear as if they will ever get one.
As far as the Beetle, where else is there to go? Other than tweaking minor details like light designs or adding the convertible, there's really not much else they can do with it. The overall design and shape of the vehicle can't change much, or it wouldn't otherwise be a Beetle. And from the sales numbers I've seen, it may not be around for very long. Sales now are a fraction of what they were a couple of years ago.
The PT Cruiser has captured the hearts of the old street rodders. People mod them like crazy. Ever been to a PT Cruiser gathering? My brother has one (hey, don't ask me - he also has a first year CTS). He has never surfed that I know of and currently lives in Indianapolis, but was very excited to get his rear view mirror hand carved out of wood to look like a surf board. The pedals light up too. The list goes on. Listen to the owners and how much they enjoy playing with their cruisers, and you have to believe there is a niche market there for awhile.
I know that I'm not the target demographic, but I really don't understand the PT Cruiser. That vehicle ranks very very near the bottom of my list in terms of appeal. I have always thought it reflected so strongly on the buyer as being a big dork. It's just this goofy, white bread, macaroni and cheese middle America thing.
Granted, as I said, I am not the target demographic. But I just can't see those being produced all that much longer.
atta boy, 'mudgeon. way to alienate rwg.
:smile:
i don't understand that car, either, but plenty of people buy it, so once again i'm in the minority over a car.
That's just the image I have of PT Crusier owners. I'm not claiming to be right.
It's going to take more than that to alienate me. I don't like them either. I don't understand the appeal and I would never buy one. But I have, by enforced association, observed the people who do like them. There seem to be a lot of them and they seem to be as enthusiastic about the PT Cruiser as we are about cars we love. Sort of like a Walmart - no matter where they put them, "country" people show up in droves. If they keep building the PT Cruiser, perhaps buyers will continue to show up.
Have the sales declined recently? What prompted including them in this thread?
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