Attn: FT - CCA autox classification question

[TD]

I was just looking over the autox classification information posted at nccbmwcca.org. However, there is no mention of whether an aftermarket flywheen bumps you out of the stock class. All of my other mods are clearly okay to remain in stock. But I am unsure re: the flywheel.

Can you look into this and let me know? Obviously, I'd prefer to remain stock as I still suck. But I also want to be honest.

Also, can you maybe sort of hold a slot in this spring's autox school for my wife?

Thanks.

[clyde]

I was just looking over the autox classification information posted at nccbmwcca.org. However, there is no mention of whether an aftermarket flywheen bumps you out of the stock class. All of my other mods are clearly okay to remain in stock. But I am unsure re: the flywheel.

Can you look into this and let me know? Obviously, I'd prefer to remain stock as I still suck. But I also want to be honest.

Also, can you maybe sort of hold a slot in this spring's autox school for my wife?

Thanks.

Fatih will know this better than I do, but I was under the impression that the entire classing structure is going to be changed for '04. Also, since you've only done a handful of events, I would argue that you should be eligible for the Novice class next year anyway

[TD]

I was just looking over the autox classification information posted at nccbmwcca.org. However, there is no mention of whether an aftermarket flywheen bumps you out of the stock class. All of my other mods are clearly okay to remain in stock. But I am unsure re: the flywheel.

Can you look into this and let me know? Obviously, I'd prefer to remain stock as I still suck. But I also want to be honest.

Also, can you maybe sort of hold a slot in this spring's autox school for my wife?

Thanks.

Fatih will know this better than I do, but I was under the impression that the entire classing structure is going to be changed for '04. Also, since you've only done a handful of events, I would argue that you should be eligible for the Novice class next year anyway

Well, I am also concerned that, if my wife decides to autox past the autox school, that she'd be put in the modified class as well if she drove my car. And it makes sense for her to drive my car.

Novice class, eh? That sounds like it would have it's own stigma.

[clyde]

Well, I am also concerned that, if my wife decides to autox past the autox school, that she'd be put in the modified class as well if she drove my car. And it makes sense for her to drive my car.

Novice class, eh? That sounds like it would have it's own stigma.

If the class structure stays the same, as a whole, the drivers in SS are better than in S1. There are two guys that would probably be in S1 that you probably won't catch. There are four or five in SS. If finishing up front is important to the two of you, you're better off using the 323. If the classes change, who knows? :dunno:

The only stigma that Novice has is what you place on it.

And if being competitive isn't important, then why think about what class you should be in?

[bren]

Doesn't it say somewhere that any mod designed to increase HP classifies you as modified? I would think (however technical) that a ligher flywheel would qualify as such seeing as you should have more power reaching the wheels...

Hey, I ran novice this year...I think I got second place (only because there was a 3 way tie for first) :twisted:

[FT@SGP]

Hello guys,

Well, few things...

To my best knowledge, flywheel if it is done to replace the stock one (a wearable item) it should be still stock. You don't have to replace items with OE to remain stock. However, as an example - not that I understand engine/drivetrain stuff, if you replace a single-plate clutch with double- or triple-plate one, than that is for increased performance and would go into modified group. I do not know if that anology applies to flywheels, but I will check with Kevin.

Clyde is right, we are working (not that I see anyone really working...) on reclassifications. There are so many ideas and 3x more objections to each idea that I do not know where we are. We are supposed to have a meeting in January but have not had it yet; probably after holiday party. The classifications will look very different IMHO. There are some people with the thought that "if you replace anything, you are moded", so I do not know how classes will look like frankly.

In terms of the "novice" class, it is very likely it will go away in 2004, Kevin does not want to deal with it anymore and I agree with it LMAO :)

For the auto-x school, I obviously cannot reserve a place on the spreadsheet at this time, and you don't know me too well yet :), but you guys have a reserved spot in my mind, so don't worry. Just make sure you send me an e-mail at the time, I'll find the spot. If both you and your wife would like to join the class, you are more than welcome, I'll find the spots.

In terms of competition, unless you have a very competitive nature, don't worry about classifications; we are all there to socialize rather than run :D

[Nick M3]

Honestly, why doesn't the chapter just combine SCCA stock rules with current stock rules and call it a day? Ban R-Tires, of course, but don't force people to think about how they're prepping their cars when autoxing at a BMW event.

[bren]

I was wondering why they don't just mirror the SCCA rules also...seems like a lot of guys run both and that would make things easier.

[clyde]

In terms of the "novice" class, it is very likely it will go away in 2004, Kevin does not want to deal with it anymore and I agree with it LMAO :)

If you didn't keep reclassifying people as novices or not it wouldn't have been a big deal. :twisted:

[bren]

:?

:paranoid:

:D

[FT@SGP]

I can tell you one thing: the very last thing they will even consider is SCCA rules ;)

[JST]

I can tell you one thing: the very last thing they will even consider is SCCA rules ;)

SCCA rules are asinine, but having rules that allow different things in BMWCCA competition v. SCCA competition is more asinine. I mean, the strut bar on my old M3 made me BS in SCCA but was still stock in CCA, for some reason.

Harmonizing the rules re: stock v. modified is only sensible. You could do that while retaining a more granular class structure for the individual car models (i.e., placing cars in more or different classes).

OTOH, I agree with Nick--R compound tires should not be able to run in any "stock" category anywhere, unless you are driving a CSL that came with them from the factory.

[Nick M3]

I still say that they ought to allow any SCCA stock modifications in the stock class. Local competitors shouldn't have to think about the consequences of minor modifcations taking them out of stock in one series vs. the majority of local events.

[clyde]

OTOH, I agree with Nick--R compound tires should not be able to run in any "stock" category anywhere,

That is how I used to feel, but after looking into it more and learning the history of DOT-R tires, I no longer agree. The problem is that making distinctions between R and non R DOT approved tires is not a long term solution because the manufacturers will design, build and sell "cheater" tires. And, of course, particpants will buy and use them. It's beginning to happen in the ST classes (Azenis, g-Force T/A KD) and it will only get worse until the top ST guys are running on R comps that have treadwear ratings that are more of a farce than the published fuel mileage specs for my RX-8. Those tire will be R comps, they just won't be labelled that way. Eliminate R comps from stock classes at the SCCA level, and it will just happen sooner.

Now, for local events, many SCCA regions run parallel stock classes where one is street tire only and the other is allowed to use R comps. We could do that too (whether NCC or WDCR-SCCA), but then many classes would be too small and have to be combined which is a whole different can of worms to avoided if possible.

One option would be for the SEB to expand the requirements for their approved tire lists. Currently, AFAIK, the requirements are purely based on (anticipated?) availability in a minimum number of sizes by a specific date. They go a bit further for tires allowed in ST classes. They must have a minimum treadwear rating and there are maximum stated widths for each class. Both since those specs are chosen by the manufacturers and there are no industry standards on how wide a 225 tire should be, or how long a tire with a 200 treadwear rating should last, there is ample room for the manufacturers to produce cheater tires. Even the idea of the SEB conducting its own testing is fraught with peril. There would be nothing to stop the manufacturers from supplying tires for testing/certification in a different compound from what they would actually sell to competitors.

An alternative could be to go to a single or dual supplier route for national level compititions and only allow a single "street" tire and a single "R comp" tire. At the local level, you would still want to leave things up to them as much as possible.

/windbag

[clyde]

I still say that they ought to allow any SCCA stock modifications in the stock class. Local competitors shouldn't have to think about the consequences of minor modifcations taking them out of stock in one series vs. the majority of local events.

Ditto.

I'd like to see the new NCC classes allow everything that the SCCA rules do for stock, and then some (like allowing different sized wheels in stock, which the SCCA does not allow). Not sure what to do about the differneces between Street Prepared, Prepared and Modified or covering the SM/SM2, STS/STX classes.

Then there is the question of how to break out the BMWs into their own classes. Should an E36 323i be competing in the same class as a 2004 330Ci (make a ZHP for fun :D). What about an E34 M5 competing in class with a 325xiT? Honestly, I think this is the tougher question...and that's before thinking about how to deal with non BMWs. My view is that MINIs should have their own class(es), but I don't know what to do about the rest.

[Nick M3]

I just don't particularly care about the R-tire issue. :p

[FT@SGP]

All of you have great input, and they have been made by others as well; and I am pretty much in line with Clyde's thinking, but... our auto-x priorities are a little different. Ours targets non-autoxers, people who wants to learn how to drive their car more effectively and have fun at the same time. Autoxers can go to SCCA (that is the basic summary of the sentiments at this time, and just my read; I might be incorrect tho).

So, rules have to be as simple as possible, and favor showroom-stock cars. :rtfm: :scratch:

[Nick M3]

I suggest that we have an either or clause, then. Allow cars prepped to SCCA stock rules to run in stock, OR allow cars prepped to the NCC's rules.

Given that the NCC rules (at least currently) probably let you make a faster overall car...

[bren]

...rules have to be as simple as possible, and favor showroom-stock cars.
But how many people actually run "showroom stock" cars? It seems like pretty much everyone has done something.

[JST]

OTOH, I agree with Nick--R compound tires should not be able to run in any "stock" category anywhere,

That is how I used to feel, but after looking into it more and learning the history of DOT-R tires, I no longer agree. The problem is that making distinctions between R and non R DOT approved tires is not a long term solution because the manufacturers will design, build and sell "cheater" tires. And, of course, particpants will buy and use them. It's beginning to happen in the ST classes (Azenis, g-Force T/A KD) and it will only get worse until the top ST guys are running on R comps that have treadwear ratings that are more of a farce than the published fuel mileage specs for my RX-8. Those tire will be R comps, they just won't be labelled that way. Eliminate R comps from stock classes at the SCCA level, and it will just happen sooner.

Now, for local events, many SCCA regions run parallel stock classes where one is street tire only and the other is allowed to use R comps. We could do that too (whether NCC or WDCR-SCCA), but then many classes would be too small and have to be combined which is a whole different can of worms to avoided if possible.

One option would be for the SEB to expand the requirements for their approved tire lists. Currently, AFAIK, the requirements are purely based on (anticipated?) availability in a minimum number of sizes by a specific date. They go a bit further for tires allowed in ST classes. They must have a minimum treadwear rating and there are maximum stated widths for each class. Both since those specs are chosen by the manufacturers and there are no industry standards on how wide a 225 tire should be, or how long a tire with a 200 treadwear rating should last, there is ample room for the manufacturers to produce cheater tires. Even the idea of the SEB conducting its own testing is fraught with peril. There would be nothing to stop the manufacturers from supplying tires for testing/certification in a different compound from what they would actually sell to competitors.

An alternative could be to go to a single or dual supplier route for national level compititions and only allow a single "street" tire and a single "R comp" tire. At the local level, you would still want to leave things up to them as much as possible.

/windbag

The solution is simpler than that, I think. The category is billed as "stock." If that means anything, the tires should be stock, too. Unless you have an OEM tire brand and model in an OEM tire size, you can't run in stock. IOW, an M3 could run Pilot Sports or Contis, but could *not* run S-03s. Putting new/better tires on a car is just as much of a modification as changing the springs--it's just easier to accomplish.

Now, I'll grant you that as tires go out of production, this gets a bit trickier. But I don't think this obstacle is insurmountable, as you could come up with relatively simple rules about "successor" tires from the same brands.

[FT@SGP]

Any one here would like to administer the systems you are proposing ;) LOL; I sure don't.

[JST]

Any one here would like to administer the systems you are proposing ;) LOL; I sure don't.

They're self-administering, to some extent. The burden is on the competitor to correctly class the car. Look at all the trouble that guy with the ZHP on the other board is going to WRT shock mounts.

If you say "only OE tires are legal," it's enforced by one of your competitors competitors challenging you and saying "Pilot Cups never came on M3s."

[Nick M3]

Something like an OEM tire requirement would drive people away from the BMW club.

That's just ridiculous.

[clyde]

Something like an OEM tire requirement ...

That's just ridiculous.

I agree with the quoted part (I don't think that it would drive people away if you did it, though).

I think that a Bloomington Gold style definition of "stock" is overly restrictive, but that leaves the question of when is a car no longer stock unanswered.

Overall, I think that the SCCA has a mostly right appraoch to what makes a stock car. The basic principal is something that I've heard referred to as the Midas principle: Things that normally wear out, need replacaing and are frequently handled by a place like Midas can be replaced Brakes pads, tires, shocks/struts, exhaust and little else. Why they let you change front sway bars is beyond me, though (and why, if you can change front bars you can't change rears). I question allowing adjustable shocks/struts in stock, but I need to research that a bit more before I draw conclusions.

When it comes to tires...tires are cheap, easy to change and something that nearly everyone needs to change at some point (pdz may not keep his cars long enough to have the need :D). Is it worth the effort of tracking down each and every factory used tire for each and every model with each and every option package? While the bulk of cars with the same options, will normally be equipped with only one or two types of tires, there is no guarantee that each car will come with that one tire or the other. Shortages happen and a couple dozen cars may go out with a third brand/model. These are not well documented events, but they do happen. Are we going to tell a newbie that shows up to an event in such a car, "sorry, you're going to have to run with the big dogs in their custom modified ///M cars because BMW just so happened to equip your car with the StreetRubber BoulevardCrusier IIIE instead of the MacadamMaster HighwayHauler 41L that everyone else *we know of* has"?

Regarding Fatih's comment about administing the rules...bah...Autocross has always been a self policing sport. Let the sanctioning body issue a set of rule and provide binding clarifications upon request. Then, it's up to the competitors to ensure compliance. They do so by properly classing their cars to begin with and prostesting those that they believe are competing with unauthorized mods for that class. An official of the santioning body investigates the protest and makes a ruling. There may or may not be appeals. The exact process should be in the rules and the rules made available to competitors.

[FT@SGP]

As I mentioned before you all have the ideas that mostly agree, not that it is in my hands to make the ruling, but I do pass on the comments to Kevin and Rafael.

However, I'll tell you this much, "administering" is not as simple as you think it is. One season behind the scenes, and I came to appreciate all that Kevin, Rafael, and Roy had to do to get the autoxes going as imperfect as they may be. The amount of e-mails, I alone, respond to is just amazing during the season. I don't have the time to write at this time the details, but all of us in the autox committee are very concerned with the overall administration of the program.

One thing that I am personally strugling with the rules and target audience is that we don't have our objectives set on stone; such the program's mission, the overall objective, and how we want it to proceed in the long-term. Without these everyone involved with the rules tries to take it to a direction that they "personally" feel more beneficial; hence "politics". One of the biggest problems I have is with the statement: "we are a BMW club".

Can you think why that may be construded as inappropriate statement?

[JST]

Something like an OEM tire requirement would drive people away from the BMW club.

That's just ridiculous.

Well, there are a lot of requirements in SCCA and even CCA that I think are flatly stupid. Any number of common mods, e.g., bump you into the "big dog" category, if you don't fit into one of the fairly limited "street touring" classes, despite the fact that these mods have essentially zero benefit in an autox setting. But that doesn't keep me from participating.

Having read Clyde's reply, I understand where he's coming from. It would be somewhat unwieldy to have an OE tire requirement, but IMHO if you are going to have any restrictions on tires (other than they must be ostensibly "street legal") that's the only thing that makes any sense, for the reasons that Clyde went into earlier in the thread.

I don't really care. I'm never going to be competitive in any class at either CCA or SCCA events, so it doesn't matter to me whether people run Pilot Cups or JATO packs.

[dan]

I thought Auto-X was supposed to be fun?

:twisted:

[Nick M3]

Autox is fun. :twisted: It's just that rules are important.

[blee]

I thought Auto-X was supposed to be fun?

:twisted:

You ought to come to one and find out before your trendy sporty cars are gone. (Yes, to be replaced by yet another trendy sporty car)

[clyde]

One of the biggest problems I have is with the statement: "we are a BMW club".

Can you think why that may be construded as inappropriate statement?

This shouldn't be too difficult to get your head around. It is a BMW club start to finish and everything should be based around that and its membership. If that means that your STi and my RX-8 become auto non gratis, so be it. But there are other levels...

Registration priority:
1. Club members driving BMWs
2. Club members driving non BMWs
3. Non club members driving BMWs
4. Non club members driving non BMWs

*Not applicable to Council events. NCC members before members from other chapters.

Classing (BMWs):
BMWs should be grouped into their own classes. The more competitive grouping that can be acheived amongst BMWs should be an advantage over the SCCA class based events. How to split them up from bone stock straight from the VPC to Frankenstein cars should be much less important, IMO. I like the points based approach to mods that some other chapters use, but without seeing it in action, it's tough to know how well it works. The primary benefits are that no one little thing will bump someone from one class into another, people should no longer have to compromise in order to remain class legal for NCC and SCCA classed events.

Classing (non BMWs):
If non BMWs are allowed to run at all, either continue dumping them all into a single class, regardless of prep level. Don't put any worry, thought or effort into making distinctions If they want to compete in a fair fight, they can go to events hosted their marquee's clubs or SCCA classed events. Second best solutions would be a split between R comp and street tire for the X class or using SCCA classings.

Classing (MINI):
IMO, the MINI's should be classed by themselves.

General:
Who makes up the autox comittee right now? Kevin, Raf, Roy and you? Are the responsibilities clearly defined? Do you need more people? If so, where do you need the help? It frequently looks like Kevin is overwhelmed with the burden of trying to do too much at the events. From handling timing & scoring to making rulings to keeping things moving on time to handling worker assignments as well as answering general questions about everything...not to mention course design and setup/takedown. The only thing he doesn't do is tech.

For the running of events, I think Kevin should train a couple people on the timing & scoring system so that he isn't chained to the computer all day. You need a permanent partner to run registration with you (and not just grabbing me on an ad hoc basis :p). Whoever is doing registration needs to know when tech is going to be open for upcoming heats. Other than that, tech seems to be okay right now with Raf and Chuck doing most of it. A permanent Chief of Workers is needed as is a Chief Safety Steward. And someone needs to be in charge overall (Officer of the Day) that can also handle questions (this would probably be Kevin), but he should have a deputy as well. They also need a Novice Coordinator to help out the newbies by arranging for them to get ride alongs before they do their runs and ride with them when they do their runs.

I would also suggest that the club get some t-shirts and/or hats made up to make those people clearly identifiable to newbies so that they know who to go talk to.

As I see it, there needs to be a staff of about 10-12.

1 OD (plus 1 deputy?)
1 CSS
1 CW
1 NC
2 Reg
2 T&S
2 Tech (maybe 3?)

That may be too much to ask from the club members, I don't know. I'm not sure the general requests for people to pitch in and help work well enough. Targeted recruitment may be a better idea. To continue the program, though, the club members need to do more. It is completely unfair to put so much of the burden on Kevin's shoulders.

I don't know enough about the preperation that goes into the events to make suggestions there (like taking care of email, renting lots, buying/maintaining equipment, etc).

I've probably forgotten some stuff...

[blee]

FWIW, my autox club (Salazar) uses about that many people to run our events. I am always amazed at how well the BMW events are run by a relatively small number of people. I always try to help where I can, but at the end of the day it boils down to FT, Raf, and Kevin. I can't say a single bad thing about the job they did last season; there are some clubs out there with many times the manpower but not even half the quality. No, I won't name names. ;)

FT, have you had much trouble trying to recruit more volunteers to run events? Doing the planning and the paperwork is one thing, but it might not be as hard to get people to be ODs, COWs, COT, etc. for one or two events per season.

[bren]

If only someone could create a website to handle all of the registration/emailing/classification issues :paranoid:

[bren]

This shouldn't be too difficult to get your head around....

:worshipb:

[clyde]

If only someone could create a website to handle all of the registration/emailing/classification issues :paranoid:

The only thing that will answer all classing questions is a person that knows what's going on.

[dan]

You ought to come to one and find out before your trendy sporty cars are gone. (Yes, to be replaced by yet another trendy sporty car)

I believe you meant to say "to be replaced by the Purest Sports Car on the Planet"

:eek:

[FT@SGP]

TD - it looks like we are combining our auto-x school with PCA this year and it will be a 1 1/2 day event with Saturday night being the classroom, and Sunday 8-5 track time.

Unfortunately, I am not doing the registration for the auto-x school and PCA is handling it. So, I cannot guarantee any spaces; better act fast as soon as registration opens :)

http://www.nccbmwcca.org/calendar-of-events.html says that the details will follow and does not give much but the registration form was distributed during tonight's party :) I think Bren and Clyde has them.

[clyde]

I think Bren and Clyde has them.

clyde doesn't have them. Nick might have an idea...it sounded like the school would more closely follow the PCA format and I thought that Nick did the PCA school last year.

[Nick M3]

No, I just did the PCA autox following the school last year. :p (Where I witnessed the glory of P-Cars drivers who really need a Camry. One ran over a cooler in the grid.)

[bren]

Details:

The event will take place at Stonewall Jackson High in Manasas.

Mandatory Class 6:30 PM Sat, March 20
followed by a full day of driving on Sunday (8-5)

It doesn't mention any registration date but there is a registration form attached. The mailing address is the PCA so it will be interesting to see who gets precedence in the event that too many people try to sign up.

[clyde]

No, I just did the PCA autox following the school last year. :p (Where I witnessed the glory of P-Cars drivers who really need a Camry. One ran over a cooler in the grid.)

Yes...same autox where I heard someon explaining (to the equally clueless) how his Tiptronic transmission was EXACTLY like a stick without the clutch.

[bren]

You guys are making spending time with the PCA sound very appealing :roll:

[clyde]

You guys are making spending time with the PCA sound very appealing :roll:

The PCA guys are very friendly...some of them just don't know a whole lot...not that much different than going to past NCC only schools IMO.