Nick M3 in the new Roundel

[Sharp11]

Hey Nick,

Not bad, 20th some odd place for a guy who's new to the sport is pretty damned good in my book.

You should be proud of yourself

Club racing is quite a step up from autox.

Ed

[bren]

Club racing is quite a step up from autox.
Why is that? :dunno:

[Sharp11]

Why is that? :dunno:

Much higher speeds, the ability to pass and pace one's self, the need to drive for 20 minutes to an hour at a time, the higher risks, the severity of abuse on equipment, knowledge of race strategy, etc. al.

I know a lot of autox people like to make a big deal about how a good autox driver can become a great road course driver, and how road course drivers make lousy autox guys - at least a couple of the better drivers I've talked to have mentioned that, but it misses the point - it's a completely different discipline, apples and oranges.

Autox is a skilled amateur sport, highly skilled at the highest level, but it's not the same thing - it's a safe, low speed, precision driving event with little if any risk to life and limb.

You'll never make a living as an autoxer, even if you're great at it - you could make a great living as an auto racer, even if you're just ok, provided you don't get killed.

Anyway, this is my take on it.

Ed

[John V]

I wouldn't call it a step up, I'd call it a step sideways. Congrats on the coverage Nick!

[clyde]

Autox is a skilled amateur sport

Club racing isn't an amateur sport?

Whether it's a step up, down, sideways, diagonal or whatever would depend mostly on Nick's goals for himself, wouldn't it?

[Nick M3]

Since I had no idea there was anything there, what was the coverage?

[bren]

...words...Ed
So you are saying that you don't respect the abilities, skills, or commitments made by top autoxers? :rolleyes:

[Sharp11]

Club racing isn't an amateur sport?

Whether it's a step up, down, sideways, diagonal or whatever would depend mostly on Nick's goals for himself, wouldn't it?

Well, yes, CR is an amateur sport, but do well there and one can keep advancing, no? Possibly, eventually going pro in some racing category.

Ed

[clyde]

Well, yes, CR is an amateur sport, but do well there and one can keep advancing, no? Possibly, eventually going pro in some racing category.

Ed

What's a "pro"? Someone that earns income? Someone that makes a living? Someone that makes a good living? Someone that achieves success (however you may define it)?

Again, it gets back to the individual's goals.

The only thing that keeps the SCCA's ProSolo format from becoming a spectator sport that could easily compete or surpass NHRA for television coverage and sponsorship dollars is the SCCA's conscious decision to not go that way. The skills or abilities required to win on course wouldn't change, but a lot of people would be able to make a lot of money at it.

[John V]

Possibly, but no more likely than an autocrosser going pro in some racing category.

Actually, that's not necessarily true, because the probability of "going pro" is directly proportional to the amount of money one has at hiss disposal, and for the most part people who club race have invested more money in their racing "careers" than autocrossers have.

[clyde]

Possibly, but no more likely than an autocrosser going pro in some racing category.

Actually, that's not necessarily true, because the probability of "going pro" is directly proportional to the amount of money one has at hiss disposal, and for the most part people who club race have invested more money in their racing "careers" than autocrossers have.
So, what I think that you're trying to say is that it is, in fact, a step up. A step up in expenditures. :thumbup:

[Nick M3]

Possibly, but no more likely than an autocrosser going pro in some racing category.

Actually, that's not necessarily true, because the probability of "going pro" is directly proportional to the amount of money one has at hiss disposal, and for the most part people who club race have invested more money in their racing "careers" than autocrossers have.
Actually, the odds of going pro out of SCCA autox are probably better than BMWCCA CR.

Personally, I really like both autox and CR. Nothing matches the sheer compressed joy that you get in a good autox run, and it's easy to run a lot of them. Racing requires a whole different skill set on top of the driving skills that autocrossing requires, but there is less emphasis on straight up driver skill and more on the driver's ability to deal with other cars and simply on equipment. And let me tell you - going three wide into a turn at high speed with less than 12 inches of clearance on either side is really exciting.

[Pinecone]

You can say that again. :)

AutoX to racing - car control and lines skills transfer well. Race strategy and tactics are a whole new ballgame. And then starts are another thing entirely

[Plaz]

It's certainly a big step up in risk to body and property.

[CABINBLACKM3]

Nobody answered Nick.......What was the coverage?

[bren]

Typical Roundel coverage. Small blurb about the winners followed with results from the field.

[Sharp11]

What's a "pro"? Someone that earns income? Someone that makes a living? Someone that makes a good living? Someone that achieves success (however you may define it)?

In a word, yes. I would add if one is making a living at something like this, a whole skill-set is involved over and above simply the driving. It's like being a professional musician, writer or actor......to keep it going ain't easy.


The only thing that keeps the SCCA's ProSolo format from becoming a spectator sport that could easily compete or surpass NHRA for television coverage and sponsorship dollars is the SCCA's conscious decision to not go that way. The skills or abilities required to win on course wouldn't change, but a lot of people would be able to make a lot of money at it.

Well, that's a pretty ambitious opinion, if americans aren't interested in watching champ cars going at it at breakneck speeds on tight road courses where the thrill of an accident is always inches away, it's unlikely they'll tune in to a solo event which, at least on the boob tube, would be about as exciting as watching airplanes take off and land from hundreds of yards away.

Autox is a fabulous participation sport, but it's just not a spectator sport - geez, I'm a fan and I wouldn't watch it on tv :dunno:

IMO.

Ed

[rautox]

Prosolo would make for good tv.

I posted a link to some of megatron's in-car/sun-roof cam footage of, I think, Fontana a while back to a group of non-autoxers and they wanted more. WRC stadium special stages and the ROC in Europe are very popular and entertaining. They're MADE for spectating.

Pro's are just as good a format and I think the scca's losing an opportunity. You'd just need to figure out what classes to run. I'd say SS, SM/SM2, A/Mod, would be a good initial list, covering a range like the NHRA does.

Given that similar stuff does capture an audience. If people will watch drag racing, drifting, or any given non-rain F1 race past the first commercial, there's an audience that would watch prosolo. I certainly would.

[bren]

Someone should probably make sure Ed knows what a Pro Solo is.

[clyde]

In a word, yes.

Then a number of us have already gone pro.

What would club racing be a step up to, then?

[rumatt]

It's certainly a big step up in risk to body and property.

Higher barrier to entry also.

[rautox]

Someone should probably make sure Ed knows what a Pro Solo is.Yup, helps if everyone's on the same page. And I found Ryan's vids :) ... from atwater. I theeeenk the patchwork M3 starting in front of him is the Sias-mobile, which is now carrying a whole lot more wing.
http://megatron.jonuts.com/images/atwater_pro_solo/ryan_atwater_pro_2004_sunday_morning.WMV

[BahnBaum]

Someone should probably make sure Ed knows what a Pro Solo is.

Good point.

Alex

[Sharp11]

Someone should probably make sure Ed knows what a Pro Solo is.

Semantics aside, I didn't know you could make a career out of autocross.

That's news to me.

Ed

[BahnBaum]

Semantics aside.Ed

It's more then semantics.

http://www.scca.com/Solo/ProSolo.asp?IdS=01B8EA-30EF9D0&x=050%7C050&~=

Alex

[JST]

Semantics aside, I didn't know you could make a career out of autocross.

That's news to me.

Ed

Alex is right--the thing about ProSolo v. Solo2 that makes the former at least a candidate for TV is that there are two cars on mirror image courses, and thus (like drag racing) while you are actually racing the clock, you are also visually racing the other competitor. More drama that way.

I still don't know whether ProSolo would be truly TV friendly, because I'm not sure the camera angles would be that compelling. OTOH, I can imagine something like a combination drag race/short circuit race that might make for interesting drama--put two cars together on a tight track at an airport or similar (kind of like the TG test track), make the track length about 60 seconds, and you get something in between autocrossing, road-racing, and drag racing that might appeal to the short attention spans of American viewers.

[Sharp11]

It's more then semantics.

http://www.scca.com/Solo/ProSolo.asp?IdS=01B8EA-30EF9D0&x=050%7C050&~=

Alex

So it isn't really a "solo" event anymore, is it? It's a "duo" event.

It's also a good idea - borrowed no doubt from the WRC where they do two-at-a-time exhibition races through smaller stadium courses.

World Rally Cup is interesting, it really IS a solo effort (sort of, if you discount the navigator/driver and just look at the single car aspect), but it's wildly popular as it has the added excitement of exotic locales, knuckle-biting danger, superhuman car-control, high speeds and all the rest.

Television is a tough medium, it makes everything seem slow - even if you designed an autox course with 80 to 100 mph top speeds, it'll look slow on the tube.

Now will this help autoxing become a popular spectator sport thus allowing drivers to turn pro? Who knows :dunno:

Ed

[dan]

So it isn't really a "solo" event anymore, is it? It's a "duo" event.


i think there's only one person in each car

[Sharp11]

What would club racing be a step up to, then?

I think I said it earlier in the thread, reiterated by Plaz,Nick and Pinecone:

Leaving aside the discussion of what is pro vs non pro for a moment, in road racing there is:

Higher risk to life, limb and machine.

The technique of passing, staying out of the way of faster cars, door to door cornering, the ability to change one's line in an instant etc.

The ability to drive for long periods of time at much higher speeds.

Race strategy.

This doesn't mean the road racer has more "talent" than a top autocrosser, but it does require building on the skills already learned in autox and bringing it to another level.

Hence, that step is "up", not "sideways", even at the amateur level.

Ed

[John V]

Higher risk to life, limb and machine.

The technique of passing, staying out of the way of faster cars, door to door cornering, the ability to change one's line in an instant etc.

The ability to drive for long periods of time at much higher speeds.

Race strategy.

This doesn't mean the road racer has more "talent" than a top autocrosser, but it does require building on the skills already learned in autox and bringing it to another level.

Hence, that step is "up", not "sideways", even at the amateur level.

Ed

I'll go on record as saying that I still don't think ProSolo would be a good TV sport. *I* like to watch it, but I really don't see people getting that interested in it. I agree with you Ed, the speeds are not high enough and there is not enough risk to make it really thrilling.

The skill set for road racing at the club level is not more difficult than autocrossing, it's just different. The step is more sideways than it is up, until you get to the upper echelons of club racing or into "Pro" racing (NASCAR, WRC, Formula cars, Champ, etc).

the most difficult thing about ProSolo is that you only get a maximum of six chances at each course. If the weather changes, it's possible that you could only get two looks at each course. There are no practice runs. It truly is do or die. ProSolo (and National Solo) is an exercise in getting *everything* out of a run with no practice. Road racers don't ever have to do this - they always have the opportunity to practice a track before getting out there.

Even in the most basic autocross classes, preparedness, knowledge of setup and ability to change setup quickly are skills that are required.

I'll grant you that autocross is not an endurance sport, it's as far to the other side of the spectrum as you can go. But then again, that's the point of autocross!

[rumatt]

i think there's only one person in each car

Not relevant.

[John V]

i think there's only one person in each car

The term "Solo" has nothing to do with how many people are in the car.

It refers to the fact that the vehicles on a particular track are seperated so they cannot, uh, "interact."

ProSolo is still Solo - there are two unique tracks with one car on each.

[Sharp11]

the most difficult thing about ProSolo is that you only get a maximum of six chances at each course. If the weather changes, it's possible that you could only get two looks at each course. There are no practice runs. It truly is do or die. ProSolo (and National Solo) is an exercise in getting *everything* out of a run with no practice. Road racers don't ever have to do this - they always have the opportunity to practice a track before getting out there.



Fair points and why I fell out of favor with the whole thing, I just can't stand the big crowds and waiting an hour between runs - it's too easy to forget and get out of one's "zone". I do try and make the test and tune days, for my own enjoyment.

I like the idea of road racing, the staying in the groove part, it's much more like music, where you play a set then break, if I had to play a really difficult tune, stop, wait an hour and resume, I'd go nuts.

Having been badly injured once (at a skip Barber course no less), I'm not interested in the risk aspect of track racing - even the local BMW club and sports car track days don't interest me any longer (though I've done a handful).

Ed

[BahnBaum]

Fair points and why I fell out of favor with the whole thing, I just can't stand the big crowds and waiting an hour between runs

If it wasn't for the social aspect I'd feel the same way.

I have to admit that I get almost as much enjoyment from hanging out with friends as I do from driving. (Bear in mind I'd be a sad soul if I got my high from winning).

Alex

[Nick M3]

Fair points and why I fell out of favor with the whole thing, I just can't stand the big crowds and waiting an hour between runs - it's too easy to forget and get out of one's "zone". I do try and make the test and tune days, for my own enjoyment.

I like the idea of road racing, the staying in the groove part, it's much more like music, where you play a set then break, if I had to play a really difficult tune, stop, wait an hour and resume, I'd go nuts.

Having been badly injured once (at a skip Barber course no less), I'm not interested in the risk aspect of track racing - even the local BMW club and sports car track days don't interest me any longer (though I've done a handful).

Ed
How does falling on your ass relate to driving?

[rumatt]

I just can't stand the big crowds and waiting an hour between runs - it's too easy to forget and get out of one's "zone". I do try and make the test and tune days, for my own enjoyment.

I've made this comparison before, but I'll repeat it for kicks.

Test and tune autox, or even driving schools at the track, are like batting practice for baseball. You go and hit a lot of balls, and it's fun. But after long enough, the novelty wears of and it becomes boring.

An autocross is like a baseball game. You get only 3 or 4 at bats. It's all about tension, and performance under pressure.

Batting practice often seems more appealing at first, but at some point you realize that despite the substantially reduced plate time, playing an actual game is a shitload more fun and much more rewarding.

[Sharp11]

How does falling on your ass relate to driving?

The falling part was coincidental to the school.

However, having spent four months on crutches, then massive physical therapy topped off two years later with a third surgery to remove three plates and twelve screws from my left knee....

.....has made me a bit risk-adverse these days.

Ed

[John V]

Fair points and why I fell out of favor with the whole thing, I just can't stand the big crowds and waiting an hour between runs - it's too easy to forget and get out of one's "zone". I do try and make the test and tune days, for my own enjoyment.

An hour between runs! I would quit too! With two drivers, I barely have enough time to get out of the car, cool the tires, and check the pressures before Clyde has to go out!

I like the idea of road racing, the staying in the groove part, it's much more like music, where you play a set then break, if I had to play a really difficult tune, stop, wait an hour and resume, I'd go nuts.

I remember auditioning for a chair position in a University of Milwaukee honors ensemble when I was in high school. I came in with a couple prepared, learned pieces to demonstrate. The auditioner listened to them - and then he put something in front of me that I'd never played before and told me to have at it. I was a proficient player when I had time to learn a piece beforehand, but I always really struggled with sightreading. Autocross is like sightreading an audition in cars.

[rumatt]

Bear in mind I'd be a sad soul if I got my high from winning.


There's more to life than winning?


:speechle:

[rumatt]

I was a proficient player when I had time to learn a piece beforehand, but I always really struggled with sightreading.

:+1

Hey, this explains a lot about my autox skills. :lol:

[Nick M3]

The falling part was coincidental to the school.

However, having spent four months on crutches, then massive physical therapy topped off two years later with a third surgery to remove three plates and twelve screws from my left knee....

.....has made me a bit risk-adverse these days.

Ed
That's fair. Just try not to say it like you stuffed the car. :p

Ironically enough, it was actually risk REDUCTION that pushed me into racing. For starters, I found that I was surrounded by slow, unpredictable, and unsafe drivers at DEs, even in the top level groups. Worse yet, lap times off the video indicated that my pace wasn't that much off that of folks in race cars. With no safety equipment whatsoever. Now, I have a decent cage, proper safety equipment, HANS device, fire suppression, and a hell of a lot more fun when I'm out there too.

[Sharp11]

An hour between runs! I would quit too! With two drivers, I barely have enough time to get out of the car, cool the tires, and check the pressures before Clyde has to go out!

I remember auditioning for a chair position in a University of Milwaukee honors ensemble when I was in high school. I came in with a couple prepared, learned pieces to demonstrate. The auditioner listened to them - and then he put something in front of me that I'd never played before and told me to have at it. I was a proficient player when I had time to learn a piece beforehand, but I always really struggled with sightreading. Autocross is like sightreading an audition in cars.

John,

It's really crowded up here and we lost two of our courses, this year we lost the fairfield county club's lot (my club) and have had to piggyback onto the already too-crowded cartct club's events.

Cart now ends up with well over a hundred entrants anyway (even though they advertise an 80 car cap).

Last year we lost the westchester lot (I'm not certain if they're up and running again).

For some reason, almost no one shows up for test and tunes :dunno:, so I do these all day. I can socialize, run a bunch, drink coffee, help out with extra corner-working time, do some tire pressure tweaking, try different techniques out there.....it's fun.

What instrument did you play? Yeah, sight reading can be a bitch, it's all about reading the big chunks and seeing them as whole phrases, sentences almost.

If you know music theory, it's pretty easy, you "see" an arpeggio as a chord spread out in a certain position, not as a bunch of notes - that sort of thing.

Ed

[Sharp11]

Ironically enough, it was actually risk REDUCTION that pushed me into racing. For starters, I found that I was surrounded by slow, unpredictable, and unsafe drivers at DEs, even in the top level groups. Worse yet, lap times off the video indicated that my pace wasn't that much off that of folks in race cars. With no safety equipment whatsoever. Now, I have a decent cage, proper safety equipment, HANS device, fire suppression, and a hell of a lot more fun when I'm out there too.

Good point and I've often thought the same thing, that is, that one shouldn't be flying around Lime Rock park in a street car with practically zero safety equipment and a bunch of aggressive, but not necessarily "safe" drivers (especially during that downhill right before the main straight with practically no run-off).

Good luck with the endeavor.

Ed

[John V]

Nick's description of DEs is exactly why I don't do them anymore. I'm way too afraid of someone who thinks he's a racecar driver doing something truly boneheaded and having my car wrecked or getting injured as a result. I would love to go wheel-to-wheel racing but I doubt I'll ever be able to devote that much time or money to that endeavor.

plus I want a few Solo national championships first :)

[rumatt]

Cart now ends up with well over a hundred entrants anyway (even though they advertise an 80 car cap)

Number of entrants is NOT why you have an hour between runs. It's because your organizers do the dumbest thing I've ever seen, and put everyone in the event into a single heat.

I asked why they did it this way (implying it sucked) and the guy almost took my head off. He said, "You must be one of those SCCA guys.", and that for casual autox'ers it's much better their way because you don't have to sit around all day waiting for your heat to start. :toetap: :toetap: :toetap:

Dumbest thing ever. I won't go to another Cart autox unless they change the format.

[Sharp11]

Number of entrants is NOT why you have an hour between runs. It's because your organizers do the dumbest thing I've ever seen, and put everyone in the event into a single heat.

I asked why they did it this way (implying it sucked) and the guy almost took my head off. He said, "You must be one of those SCCA guys.", and that for casual autox'ers it's much better their way because you don't have to sit around all day waiting for your heat to start. :toetap: :toetap: :toetap:

Dumbest thing ever. I'm not planning to ever go to a Cart autox again unless they change the format.

They've got good people up there, Mark Daddio, Brian Moran, Chip Rutan, but they do some really dumb things. One of the things I think is really crazy and potentially dangerous is their slacker approach to corner-worker safety - they have too few posts and often only ONE worker per post. It's nuts (especially given the speed and size of the course).

Also, as you discovered, they can be quite rude and stubborn.
Ed

[John V]

The DC region SCCA can get through 280 entrants, four runs, 60-second courses and be done before 5PM. And you don't have to be there more than half the day (Arrive 7AM, leave at noon or arrive at 10AM, leave at 4-5PM). THAT is autocrossing. :)

[clyde]

Autocross would show fine on TV, so long as it was shot correctly (Pro Solo or Solo). Shoot it like an oval race, and yeah, it will be as exciting looking as flys fucking.

This is the last time that I'm gong to comment on it, but moving from autocross to racing is not a step up at face value. Racing requires a different skillset, sure, but it's not taking what's developed in autocross and adding on to it while maintaining all of the skills developed in autocross to the same high level...the skillset is different and what's needed from each part that is common to the two disciplines are not the same (and, of course, this assumes that the new racer was any good at autocross to begin with, as opposed to having the money to do a lot of track days, having personal relationships with those that can assist with getting a competition license, and having the money to buy a race car, having the money to build the race car, and having the money to compete in the race car). It's certainly a big step up in expenditures, and an assumption of a greater level of risk, but there's nothing in there about skill, ability, or even progression to a personal goal.

One might think that the lack of support on this point from the person doing would substitute for a spike on the cluestick, but apparently not. Oh well.

[Nick M3]

Nick's description of DEs is exactly why I don't do them anymore. I'm way too afraid of someone who thinks he's a racecar driver doing something truly boneheaded and having my car wrecked or getting injured as a result. I would love to go wheel-to-wheel racing but I doubt I'll ever be able to devote that much time or money to that endeavor.

plus I want a few Solo national championships first :)
So since I *am* a race car driver, I'm allowed to wreck your car? ;)

[clyde]

So since I *am* a race car driver, I'm allowed to wreck your car? ;)
Jerry was a race car driver
And he drove so goddamned fast
He never did win no checkered flag
But he never did come in last

[bren]

Jerry was a race car driver
And he drove so goddamned fast
He never did win no checkered flag
But he never did come in last

Jerry was a race car driver
22 years old
Had too many cold beers one night
And wrapped himself around a telephone pole

[Sharp11]

Autocross would show fine on TV, so long as it was shot correctly (Pro Solo or Solo). Shoot it like an oval race, and yeah, it will be as exciting looking as flys fucking.

This is the last time that I'm gong to comment on it, but moving from autocross to racing is not a step up at face value. Racing requires a different skillset, sure, but it's not taking what's developed in autocross and adding on to it while maintaining all of the skills developed in autocross to the same high level...the skillset is different and what's needed from each part that is common to the two disciplines are not the same (and, of course, this assumes that the new racer was any good at autocross to begin with, as opposed to having the money to do a lot of track days, having personal relationships with those that can assist with getting a competition license, and having the money to buy a race car, having the money to build the race car, and having the money to compete in the race car). It's certainly a big step up in expenditures, and an assumption of a greater level of risk, but there's nothing in there about skill, ability, or even progression to a personal goal.

One might think that the lack of support on this point from the person doing would substitute for a spike on the cluestick, but apparently not. Oh well.

I have to admit, rattling your cage is fun ;) (if a bit too easy at times -temper temper).

Ed

[clyde]

I have to admit, rattling your cage is fun ;) (if a bit too easy at times -temper temper).

Ed
No, no cages rattled, no tempers flared. Just once again I fell into the trap of thinking that I (and others) may be able to help educate you on something that you know much less about than you seem to think you do. I was wrong, again. My mistake, again. I'd like to say that it won't happen again, but it probably will. So, until next time... :drink2:

[Sharp11]

No, no cages rattled, no tempers flared. Just once again I fell into the trap of thinking that I (and others) may be able to help educate you on something that you know much less about than you seem to think you do. I was wrong, again. My mistake, again. I'd like to say that it won't happen again, but it probably will. So, until next time... :drink2:

I just never know what it is I don't know until you're there to lecture me, whether it's cars, films, photography - you name it, I don't know anything about it. :dunno:

Ed

[clyde]

I just never know what it is I don't know until you're there to lecture me, whether it's cars, films, photography - you name it, I don't know anything about it. :dunno:

Ed
Whatever I can do to help. :)

[Pinecone]

Having made the move, I would say that racing does build on skills learning in autocrossing. But the reverse isn't as applicable. As JV says, autoX is like sight reading. Racing allows you practice the course and play with the line to get it right.

But an autocrosser on the track gets it pretty quickly, for things like qualifying. But RACE skills have to be built.

A racer going autocrossing tends to not learn the course fast enough.

And Clyde is right, racing does not maintain autocrossing skills. While they transfer over, the two are different enough that you lose the autocrossing edge if you only race.

IMO the only part of ProSolo that would make good TV would the elimination rounds.