E36 M3 to E39? (Kinda long)

[armaq]

For the 4th time in one year's time, I find myself wanting a new car. And this time I'm more serious than ever.

My M3 sedan is in very good shape (TCK suspension, new brakes/PS2s, new clutch, secured cooling system, strong motor...), and I still get a kick out of it every now and then. But, I think it's time for it to go. At this point in my life, I don't want to deal with a DD that needs constant care and maintenance (and cleaning, being a black car). I do enjoy doing the DIYs when they are cheap and not as much time consuming, but most times I'm bothered by the silly little problems that I either don't want to spend money on or don't have time for. Also, although the TCK suspension is very forgiving for coilovers, I think I've made the mistake of making this car less street friendly.

So, I looked around and decided I'd like an E39. I will only keep this car for 1-2 years and don't want to spend a lot of money on it, so no M5/540 for me. I intially looked at 02-03 E46 330s (including ZHPs), but ruled them out for the following reasons: they aren't much of an upgrade from what I have now; I've owned an E46 before; I will run into the same reliability problems eventually and most importantly, a 02-03 530i can be had for the same money.

I have my eyes set on a 02 or 03 530i Sport 5spd. They are a little under-powerd, but straight line performance isn't on my priority list anyway. It's been a while since I last drove one of these, but on paper the aluminum front frame and rack and pinion steering should make the car handle very well (all the mags say so too). The sport model also comes with the niiice sport seats and the beefy M5 steering wheel, both of which I like a lot. Overall, it's a better made/optioned car than a 330i inside and out. And IMO, it's a very handsome car in stock form (even better with the M-teck kit and M Parellel rims). The ZHP is probably a better drive, but after owning a tweaked E36 M3, I'm not expecting a more exciting car without spending major $$$. For this reason, the 530i Sport seems very well balanced in its own way, and the extra comfort/luxury is definitely something I can appreciate.

Any thoughts? Has anyone here owned a 530i Sport? I'd like to hear your opinions before I start the stressful process of selling/searching/buying at the same time.

TIA!

[Josh (PA)]

I went from an e36 M3 convertible to an e39 540iT. At first I loved the power of the v8 but quickly missed the nimbleness of the m3. The e39 is an amazing cruising car and very competent for its size. It just eats up miles on the highway and will scoot through twisty roads faster than most anything out there. It just feels (or doesn't feel) different, much more laid back and comfortable, but also not nearly as rewarding. We recently purchased a different e36 M3c to share the garage with the 540 and now everything is perfect. I find that I drive the wagon about 2/3s of the time, but whenever I don't need it's utilitarianism, I jump in the m3 even on long mostly highway trips. I really missed the involvement of the m3 when I didn't have it.

I got the 540 about a year and a half ago and have put 40k miles on it so far. It had it's share of maintenance needs, but nothing out of the ordinary. I had to put a new airbag (I did both sides) in the self leveling rear suspension, coolant expansion tank and radiator that I remember off the top of my head.

It's a fabulous car, just completely different from the m3

[zach]

For the 4th time in one year's time, I find myself wanting a new car. And this time I'm more serious than ever.

My M3 sedan is in very good shape (TCK suspension, new brakes/PS2s, new clutch, secured cooling system, strong motor...), and I still get a kick out of it every now and then. But, I think it's time for it to go. At this point in my life, I don't want to deal with a DD that needs constant care and maintenance (and cleaning, being a black car). I do enjoy doing the DIYs when they are cheap and not as much time consuming, but most times I'm bothered by the silly little problems that I either don't want to spend money on or don't have time for. Also, although the TCK suspension is very forgiving for coilovers, I think I've made the mistake of making this car less street friendly.

So, I looked around and decided I'd like an E39. I will only keep this car for 1-2 years and don't want to spend a lot of money on it, so no M5/540 for me. I intially looked at 02-03 E46 330s (including ZHPs), but ruled them out for the following reasons: they aren't much of an upgrade from what I have now; I've owned an E46 before; I will run into the same reliability problems eventually and most importantly, a 02-03 530i can be had for the same money.

I have my eyes set on a 02 or 03 530i Sport 5spd. They are a little under-powerd, but straight line performance isn't on my priority list anyway. It's been a while since I last drove one of these, but on paper the aluminum front frame and rack and pinion steering should make the car handle very well (all the mags say so too). The sport model also comes with the niiice sport seats and the beefy M5 steering wheel, both of which I like a lot. Overall, it's a better made/optioned car than a 330i inside and out. And IMO, it's a very handsome car in stock form (even better with the M-teck kit and M Parellel rims). The ZHP is probably a better drive, but after owning a tweaked E36 M3, I'm not expecting a more exciting car without spending major $$$. For this reason, the 530i Sport seems very well balanced in its own way, and the extra comfort/luxury is definitely something I can appreciate.

Any thoughts? Has anyone here owned a 530i Sport? I'd like to hear your opinions before I start the stressful process of selling/searching/buying at the same time.

TIA!

How many miles are on your e36?

[FC]

Any thoughts? Has anyone here owned a 530i Sport? I'd like to hear your opinions before I start the stressful process of selling/searching/buying at the same time.

TIA!

I'm quite sure our very own ZBB owns such a car right now.;)

[equ]

I haven't owned an e39 but considered the same question. I think you'd need a dedicated sporty car on the side. If you're enthusiast enough to have TCK e36m3, you're not going to be satisfied with the e39 (unless you swear off driving or are about to lose your license).

Even the difference between the zhp (a less immediate car than yours) and the 530 is significant (not perhaps in absolute capability but in feeling playful & sporty).

[TD]

I went from a less-modified-than-yours E36 M3/4 to a sport package E90 330i.

I once posted the specs for the E90 compared to the E39. They are actually VERY close in size, surprisingly. However, even with the 255 hp engine (vs the 225 hp engine in the E46 330i and E39 530i), it's far from exciting. I'm overall satisfied with the car (for now) but I imagine anything slower or softer or heavier would have been a HUGE letdown from the E36 M3.

The other concern I have about your choices is that I dumped a 2001 E46 330i that I had bought new after only 13 months because I hated it THAT much. That's when I got my E36 M3/4. The throttle and clutch response in the E46 is really quite crappy and will drive you batshit after more than a few dozen miles. I tried modding my way to happiness and it still didn't work.

The thing is, that exact same engine/clutch/throttle combo is in the 530i as well. It is the main reason I would never consider an E39 525i or 530i or another E46 (aside from the ZHP - which is noticably better in these areas).

[JST]

So, I looked around and decided I'd like an E39. I will only keep this car for 1-2 years and don't want to spend a lot of money on it, so no M5/540 for me. I intially looked at 02-03 E46 330s (including ZHPs), but ruled them out for the following reasons: they aren't much of an upgrade from what I have now; I've owned an E46 before; I will run into the same reliability problems eventually and most importantly, a 02-03 530i can be had for the same money.


Not sure I follow the logic on ruling out the E46; the E39 will have the same or worse reliability problems, will be slower, will handle worse, will not be as involving or fun to drive, and will be older for an equivalent car.

It will be an "upgrade" in the sense that it is bigger, but it isn't that much bigger than the E46 in any dimension other than width, and in looking at 5ers the extra space has never really seemed worth the other trade-offs to me.

The only reason I'd consider a 5er is because you can get a V8, but a 6 cylinder 5 has always seemed like an answer to a question that I never asked.

With the E90 335 on the horizon, you'll be able to get performance well in excess of the E39 540 (and nearing that of the E39 M5) with a smaller bodyshell and better handling. That's the car I'd wait for, were I you. If that's more than you want to spend, I think the ZHP is probably the right car for an ex-M3 driver.

[Rob]

Or, if you are looking for a great family sedan that has great driving characteristics, you are looking in the right place. They are great cars for what they are.

[armaq]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I'm quite sure our very own ZBB owns such a car right now.;)

Great! I will PM him if he doesn't chime in.

I think you'd need a dedicated sporty car on the side.


Yea that's the plan, but looks like I have to make do without a real sports car for a little while.

I went from a less-modified-than-yours E36 M3/4 to a sport package E90 330i.

...



I see your point TD and agree with you. I too went back to E36 from an E46. But I guess my goal with this next car is not to surpass or match the performance and handling of the M3/4. I kinda want it to be a bit more civilized and refined, while not losing great driving characteristics. The E90 330i is an obvious choice, but it's best for me financially to keep it around mid 20k's. The plan is to pick up another E36 M3 at some point down the road.

Not sure I follow the logic on ruling out the E46; the E39 will have the same or worse reliability problems, will be slower, will handle worse, will not be as involving or fun to drive, and will be older for an equivalent car.

...


The logic goes something like this: E46 over E39 for better acceleration and handling, but neither car (even E46 in ZHP form) is a match for the E36 M3, so why even bother in this regard? The E39 is better made and "more car" for the money, thus the conclusion. In ruling out the E46, I also felt that it was too similar to the E36. Plus, I've owned a 328i prior to the M3/4 ownership - I kinda want to experience something new. So I thought instead of looking for a true M3 successor in my price range, I might wanna try to forget the ex-M3 owner status and go for something different. That's where the 530 makes sense: it's no M3/ZHP, but it's a very accomplished and well balanced sedan in its own way. I for one can appreciate the extra space and refinement the E39 offers: I do a lot of highway driving and I take passengers (family members, friends, co-workers, clients...) all the time.

The reliability issue you pointed out however, is definitely something I haven't thought of. I thought the 02 and 03 E39s, especially the 6-cylinder models were quite solid, trouble-free cars. Guess I was wrong?

I went from an e36 M3 convertible to an e39 540iT. ...

That's the E39 I have the most experience with, the 540iT. I used to get to drive one every now and then. I'd LOVE to get into a 03 540i 6spd, but last I checked they were still in the mid 30k's. If I do get one, I will have to forget about picking up another E36 M3.

Is your interior creak/rattle free?

Or, if you are looking for a great family sedan that has great driving characteristics, you are looking in the right place. They are great cars for what they are.

I was trying to avoid the words "family sedan"... Guess that's what the 530 is.

[JST]

The reliability issue you pointed out however, is definitely something I haven't thought of. I thought the 02 and 03 E39s, especially the 6-cylinder models were quite solid, trouble-free cars. Guess I was wrong?


I haven't looked into the six cylinder cars specifically, but it's the same engine as in the E46, so any engine reliability issues are going to be essentially identical. As for other, non-engine stuff, from my research I'd guess the E39 is going to be less reliable than an E46, but that's based on an impression that I got while looking into 540s, rather than anything solid I can point to. Still, I can't imagine any reason why it would be appreciably better in this regard--they are both BMWs, after all.

The last E39s are 03s, which means that they are now going on 4 years old. The OEM warranties will expire within the next 12 months, and though you may still find a CPO car, CPO ain't worth much, warranty-wise, when it comes to fixing small but expensive problems.

If you are looking in the mid-20s, there are plenty of 540s out there. No need to restrict yourself to the 03s. Those had a better suspension that the earlier cars, but frankly *any* moderate mileage 5er you are going to buy is going to need new shocks sooner rather than later, so you can put a set of Konis or Bilsteins on an 01 or 02 540 and get a better handling car than the '03.

I don't mean to be so negative--if you want a comfortable biggish crusier with decent gas mileage and really don't care about the power, get the 5er. But I don't think you should rule out the E46 based on quality/reliability/maintenance issues.

[armaq]

How many miles are on your e36?

64.5k. Fastidiously maintained by me in my 3 year ownership, absolutely no money spared. It needs NOTHING. Interested?

Some key upgrades and maintenance stuff:

- Cooling: 1 year old radiator, hoses and expansion tank; recently replaced belts and fan clutch; new EMP Steward water pump

- Suspension: 10k mi old TCK TrueMatch coilovers with top adjustable rears and 300f/400r springs; Motor Force camber plates; replaced RTABs with GC shims; X-brace

- Engine/drivetrain: Jim Conforti CAI; UUC EVO3 SSK, clutch stop and clutch line; new slave and master cylinder, new clutch; CDV delete

- Wheels/tires/brakes: polished LTWs shod with new PS2s; new rotors (Euro floaters up front), new Hawk HPS and new SS brake lines

- Other/cosmestic: ZKWs with 4300k HID; Raid 340mm airbag steering wheel (German made, as seen in Rufs and other exotics); new cluster with M Coupe gauge rings (perfect lit, no dim spots that most E36s have); Nurburgring Nordschleife sticker in the rear window

[ZBB]

I'm quite sure our very own ZBB owns such a car right now.;)

:D In fact I do -- an '03 530i with sport and 5 speed. It replaced my '01 325Ci about a year and a half ago. I bought it CPO with 23k miles on it. It now has just over 43k miles in it.

It really is a great car. The engine is plenty powerful for my needs (I've never been a HP freak -- and this is the most powerful car I've ever owned). The car isn't a slug, but its obviously not the fastest accelerating car out there. Its quite a pleasure to drive -- and in many ways feels like a more solid and 10% larger E46 (especially since I had the same M3 wheel in my E46 and the dash layouts are relatively similar). There are no rattles anywhere, and the interior parts are mostly of higher quality than an E46 (things like the felt lined pockets in the doors). It also gets outstanding mileage -- we averaged 31MPG on an 800 mile drive from San Francisco -- with cruise control mostly set to 80-85, which included one stretch of 520 miles on one tank! I usually get ~26 MPG commuting.

Since you're wondering about maintenance on E39s... Its good to be concerned. My E39 has been in the shop more times in 18 months than the E46 was in 4 years. Its actually in the shop today. So far, only 1 visit was for scheduled service, the others have been because of minor warranty issues. Here's a summary of the E39 -- so far its all been covered by warranty:

1) Driver's seat moving slightly laterally on turns. This took 3 visits to diagnose and fix (even though I handed them the E39 Tips & Tricks page instructions to fix it). So far so good on the repair (1 year ago)
2) A/C system had to be fully replaced at 35k miles due to corrosion. Interestingly, the dealer noticed it when it was in for the seat fix.
3) The steering was groaning during right turns on cold mornings (below 50 degrees -- and yes that's cold to me). This was due to a steering rack leak -- so they replaced the steering rack.
4) I had some odd stalling issues, after which the Service Engine Soon light came on. This was due to the intake camshaft sensor failing. Probably also explains the lousy gas mileage I got over the last tank or so of gas (4 MPG below normal) prior to the repair.
5) Its in the shop today since the car developed a vibration at speeds >65. There's apparently a common bushing issue on E39s that causes this, but it could be something as simple as a tire out of balance.

Since you said you're looking at '02 and '03s -- The '03s have one major advantage (besides being a year younger): The audio and phone systems were updated and you can retrofit Sirius (or XM via XM direct - just use the same kit that fits an E46) and Bluetooth. I added XM just after buying the car, and put Bluetooth in a few months ago. Really helps keep the car current on features and not feeling like the 10 year old design it really is.

I'm probably going to keep this car for another 1-2 years. It fits my needs very well now, and is an overall great car.

[equ]

The logic goes something like this: E46 over E39 for better acceleration and handling, but neither car (even E46 in ZHP form) is a match for the E36 M3, so why even bother in this regard? The E39 is better made and "more car" for the money, thus the conclusion.


I disagree. The 2-3 e36m3's that I drove felt no stronger than the 2 zhp's I've owned. If anything, they felt a bit tired. Their frame flex was noticeable as well. I think the 530i may be a good plan, though you owe it to yourself to look at zhp's (as they're getting into the mid 20's now depending on mileage/condition). I think TD makes a good point, the throttle/clutch is less than ideal. Other than that, it's quite good.

Where are you located? I might take a look at your e36m3 (I'm in the NYC area).

[JST]

64.5k. Fastidiously maintained by me in my 3 year ownership, absolutely no money spared. It needs NOTHING. Interested?


Color?

[iateyourcheese]

Color?

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showpost.php?p=101046&postcount=23

[FC]

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showpost.php?p=101046&postcount=23

Wow, that's a beautiful car.

[armaq]

:D In fact I do -- an '03 530i with sport and 5 speed. It replaced my '01 325Ci about a year and a half ago. I bought it CPO with 23k miles on it. It now has just over 43k miles in it.

It really is a great car. The engine is plenty powerful for my needs (I've never been a HP freak -- and this is the most powerful car I've ever owned). The car isn't a slug, but its obviously not the fastest accelerating car out there. Its quite a pleasure to drive -- and in many ways feels like a more solid and 10% larger E46 (especially since I had the same M3 wheel in my E46 and the dash layouts are relatively similar). There are no rattles anywhere, and the interior parts are mostly of higher quality than an E46 (things like the felt lined pockets in the doors). It also gets outstanding mileage -- we averaged 31MPG on an 800 mile drive from San Francisco -- with cruise control mostly set to 80-85, which included one stretch of 520 miles on one tank! I usually get ~26 MPG commuting.

Since you're wondering about maintenance on E39s... Its good to be concerned. My E39 has been in the shop more times in 18 months than the E46 was in 4 years. Its actually in the shop today. So far, only 1 visit was for scheduled service, the others have been because of minor warranty issues. Here's a summary of the E39 -- so far its all been covered by warranty:

1) Driver's seat moving slightly laterally on turns. This took 3 visits to diagnose and fix (even though I handed them the E39 Tips & Tricks page instructions to fix it). So far so good on the repair (1 year ago)
2) A/C system had to be fully replaced at 35k miles due to corrosion. Interestingly, the dealer noticed it when it was in for the seat fix.
3) The steering was groaning during right turns on cold mornings (below 50 degrees -- and yes that's cold to me). This was due to a steering rack leak -- so they replaced the steering rack.
4) I had some odd stalling issues, after which the Service Engine Soon light came on. This was due to the intake camshaft sensor failing. Probably also explains the lousy gas mileage I got over the last tank or so of gas (4 MPG below normal) prior to the repair.
5) Its in the shop today since the car developed a vibration at speeds >65. There's apparently a common bushing issue on E39s that causes this, but it could be something as simple as a tire out of balance.

Since you said you're looking at '02 and '03s -- The '03s have one major advantage (besides being a year younger): The audio and phone systems were updated and you can retrofit Sirius (or XM via XM direct - just use the same kit that fits an E46) and Bluetooth. I added XM just after buying the car, and put Bluetooth in a few months ago. Really helps keep the car current on features and not feeling like the 10 year old design it really is.

I'm probably going to keep this car for another 1-2 years. It fits my needs very well now, and is an overall great car.

:thumbup:

Just the kind of stuff I needed to know! Thanks!

Looks like it's not as reliable as I thought. Surprisingly a lot of the problems you mentioned are common on the E36 too. But at least it doesn't have the dreadful subframe problems that both the E36 and E46 suffer. CPO is definitely the way to go then. It's also good to know the interior is of high quality. I might have to PM you if I have a very specific question. Once again, thanks for the reply.

[armaq]

[I]I disagree. The 2-3 e36m3's that I drove felt no stronger than the 2 zhp's I've owned. If anything, they felt a bit tired. Their frame flex was noticeable as well. I think the 530i may be a good plan, though you owe it to yourself to look at zhp's (as they're getting into the mid 20's now depending on mileage/condition). I think TD makes a good point, the throttle/clutch is less than ideal. Other than that, it's quite good.

Where are you located? I might take a look at your e36m3 (I'm in the NYC area).

Between the 3 ZHPs I've driven, only one felt close to my M3 in power, and it was modded (intake and exhaust). I agree the performance difference between the 2 motors is not big, it's all about where the power is. If the S52 is healthy with a good VANOS unit, the ZHP's tweaked M54 is no match for it below 4k rpm. After that, the difference is marginal. Chassis wise, the E46 is definitely a generation ahead of E36, no question about that.

I'm in Houston, Texas - I know most of you guys are in the northeast, so I didn't bother posting a feeler here.

Color?

Cosmos Black on black leather (identical to TD/iateyourcheese's). It has every option except for rear fold down seats: H/K sound (with CD43 BMW Business HU), power and heated seats, sunroof, alarm...the works.

BTW, I completely see your point. The ZHP and 540 were what I looked at before I even thought about the 530. For the right price, I'd definitely jump on either one of them. It all comes down to whether to spend the extra few grand or not. A nice 02 530i Sport 5spd with 30k mi can be had for $22-23k, while a nice low mi ZHP or 540 6pd is still in the high 20k's. Not that much of a difference, but at this point I'm convinced a 530i Sport *should* do it for me. I really appreciate the fact that you guys think that I need a sportier car :D

[armaq]

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showpost.php?p=101046&postcount=23

;)

Wow, that's a beautiful car.

Thanks! It looks a bit different now (that pic is a year old). I will take a few pics if anyone is interested to see it.