VAG electrical gremlins: Plus ca change...

[John V]

We love our 2002 1.8T Jetta but it's getting to be a bit of a pain in the butt from an electrical standpoint.

* Recalled 6/02 for Hazard Switch.
* Recalled 10/02 for coil packs
* Recalled 2/03 for driver's side heated seat.
* 5/04, FM reception starts to suck. Borrowed scan tool shows that FM antenna amplifier has died. Part is $300. We decide radio sucks and start listening to CDs and iPods.
* 6/04, CEL for "intermittent misfire, cylinder 4". Dealer wants $700 to clean the throttle body, MAF, manifold and valves (!!). Checked throttle body and MAF (both clean). Replaced plugs, problem went away.
* Recalled 10/04 for passenger's side heated seat
* 3/05, SRS light comes on. Borrowed scan tool and VWVortex.com to the rescue, a short wiring harness to the airbag which ohms out and looks fine is replaced anyway to the tune of $80, problem goes away. Still baffled about that one.
* 2/06 CEL for front O2 sensor heating circuit malfunction. (new sensor on order). Quick bit of research shows that they usually fail in warranty, we're just unlucky.
* 2/06 turn signal intermittent relay clicking (stalk isn't loose, and the signals don't actually come on). Quick bit of research shows that it's a very common problem. Solution is a $100 replacement of the turn signal stalk or a liberal application of contact cleaner.

Combine all that with the leaking driver's side weatherstripping (replaced under warranty and leaking again), the seized rear brakes at one year of ownership, the creaking front suspension (almost since new) and it makes me wonder. The car drives pretty well, but it's obvious the perceived quality of these cars is just that - perceived. We'll hang onto this one until I lose the ability to fix it on my own but we're not buying another VAG product. No way.

[lemming]

We love our 2002 1.8T Jetta but it's getting to be a bit of a pain in the butt from an electrical standpoint.

* Recalled 6/02 for Hazard Switch.
* Recalled 10/02 for coil packs
* Recalled 2/03 for driver's side heated seat.
* 5/04, FM reception starts to suck. Borrowed scan tool shows that FM antenna amplifier has died. Part is $300. We decide radio sucks and start listening to CDs and iPods.
* 6/04, CEL for "intermittent misfire, cylinder 4". Dealer wants $700 to clean the throttle body, MAF, manifold and valves (!!). Checked throttle body and MAF (both clean). Replaced plugs, problem went away.
* Recalled 10/04 for passenger's side heated seat
* 3/05, SRS light comes on. Borrowed scan tool and VWVortex.com to the rescue, a short wiring harness to the airbag which ohms out and looks fine is replaced anyway to the tune of $80, problem goes away. Still baffled about that one.
* 2/06 CEL for front O2 sensor heating circuit malfunction. (new sensor on order). Quick bit of research shows that they usually fail in warranty, we're just unlucky.
* 2/06 turn signal intermittent relay clicking (stalk isn't loose, and the signals don't actually come on). Quick bit of research shows that it's a very common problem. Solution is a $100 replacement of the turn signal stalk or a liberal application of contact cleaner.

Combine all that with the leaking driver's side weatherstripping (replaced under warranty and leaking again), the seized rear brakes at one year of ownership, the creaking front suspension (almost since new) and it makes me wonder. The car drives pretty well, but it's obvious the perceived quality of these cars is just that - perceived. We'll hang onto this one until I lose the ability to fix it on my own but we're not buying another VAG product. No way.

:dunno:

don't say that "we" didn't warn you.

(sigh).

it's very difficult, with the amount of electronics in cars these days, to execute the systems reliably --the japanese still have figured out how to do it and the Germans, any brand, have failed to figure out how to do this in a reliable way because they rely too much on Continental vendors.

[John V]

Well, I didn't know "we" when she bought the car back in '02. :D

And... :dunno: My 10-year-old M3 didn't have any electrical problems. Only threw a CEL once and that was by my own doing - aftermarket chip that was burned with an incorrect checksum.

[lemming]

Well, I didn't know "we" when she bought the car back in '02. :D

And... :dunno: My 10-year-old M3 didn't have any electrical problems. Only threw a CEL once and that was by my own doing - aftermarket chip that was burned with an incorrect checksum.

dontcha worry, laddie.

with JST and TD firmly entrenched in german cars, you've got plenty of people to suffer "with".

[rumatt]

Our in-laws leased a jetta about 4 years ago. I really liked the car at first, but after about 2 years the car felt like it was 10 years old.

How is it possible to make a car that "feels old" so quickly? :scratch: I've heard others make this criticism before. (PhilH maybe?)

[blee]

Have you not had the window regulator issue yet? That's got to be some kind of record. :dunno:

[John V]

What is the window regulator issue? :dunno:

[Sharp11]

We love our 2002 1.8T Jetta but it's getting to be a bit of a pain in the butt from an electrical standpoint.

* Recalled 6/02 for Hazard Switch.
* Recalled 10/02 for coil packs
* Recalled 2/03 for driver's side heated seat.
* 5/04, FM reception starts to suck. Borrowed scan tool shows that FM antenna amplifier has died. Part is $300. We decide radio sucks and start listening to CDs and iPods.
* 6/04, CEL for "intermittent misfire, cylinder 4". Dealer wants $700 to clean the throttle body, MAF, manifold and valves (!!). Checked throttle body and MAF (both clean). Replaced plugs, problem went away.
* Recalled 10/04 for passenger's side heated seat
* 3/05, SRS light comes on. Borrowed scan tool and VWVortex.com to the rescue, a short wiring harness to the airbag which ohms out and looks fine is replaced anyway to the tune of $80, problem goes away. Still baffled about that one.
* 2/06 CEL for front O2 sensor heating circuit malfunction. (new sensor on order). Quick bit of research shows that they usually fail in warranty, we're just unlucky.
* 2/06 turn signal intermittent relay clicking (stalk isn't loose, and the signals don't actually come on). Quick bit of research shows that it's a very common problem. Solution is a $100 replacement of the turn signal stalk or a liberal application of contact cleaner.

Combine all that with the leaking driver's side weatherstripping (replaced under warranty and leaking again), the seized rear brakes at one year of ownership, the creaking front suspension (almost since new) and it makes me wonder. The car drives pretty well, but it's obvious the perceived quality of these cars is just that - perceived. We'll hang onto this one until I lose the ability to fix it on my own but we're not buying another VAG product. No way.

My sister's '98 Passat (the first year of the "new" style) has a similar list (including a rebuilt engine at 30k) and right now, at 74k miles, it sits at the VW dealership awaiting a new auto tranny. In her case, the car's covered under a ten year 100k driveline warranty, but still, it's killed her confidence in the car and the company.

She's had VW's for years, starting with her '71 super beetle, but yesterday she broke the cycle, we got her a certified '03 325xi with 23k on the clock for just 26,500, a mint condition car with a six year 100k warranty at a good price.

Ed

[blee]

What is the window regulator issue? :dunno:
JST knows a bit about this one. Apparently the retaining clips that hold the glass in place were made out of a nice brittle plastic in order to prevent hand/neck/testicle injury should the window attempt to close on them. The problem was that the clips were a little too brittle, breaking at random times and causing the window to just drop into the door.

[John V]

My sister's '98 Passat (the first year of the "new" style) has a similar list (including a rebuilt engine at 30k) and right now, at 74k miles, it sits at the VW dealership awaiting a new auto tranny. In her case, the car's covered under a ten year 100k driveline warranty, but still, it's killed her confidence in the car and the company.

She's had VW's for years, starting with her '71 super beetle, but yesterday she broke the cycle, we got her a certified '03 325xi with 23k on the clock for just 26,500, a mint condition car with a six year 100k warranty at a good price.

Ed

Hm. Lovely.

We're kind of torn. We both really like driving the car. Wear items are cheap. The car is easy to work on (I do all of our repairs, our cars will never see the inside of a dealership unless it's recall related). But all these little electrical gremlins are starting to scare me a bit.

FWIW, I have a few friends who have owned a Jetta 2.0, Golf 2.0 and Audi A4 1.8t and they've all had similar experiences.

I wanted to keep this car as a beater when TheGirl™ got her new car (probably next winter) but now I'm not so sure.

[JST]

JST knows a bit about this one. Apparently the retaining clips that hold the glass in place were made out of a nice brittle plastic in order to prevent hand/neck/testicle injury should the window attempt to close on them. The problem was that the clips were a little too brittle, breaking at random times and causing the window to just drop into the door.


Yeah--we had to replace the window regulators three times. In a two door car. :irate: Search on VW Vortex and you will find a thread that goes on for pages...and pages...with lots of people posting "I've never had this problem" only to post three pages later "Hey, my regulator just broke."

But, I think they finally came up with a design that wasn't teh sux0r and fixed the problem.

It's only an issue, I guess, with power windows--not sure if yours has those.

[John V]

Yeah--we had to replace the window regulators three times. In a two door car. :irate: Search on VW Vortex and you will find a thread that goes on for pages...and pages...with lots of people posting "I've never had this problem" only to post three pages later "Hey, my regulator just broke."

But, I think they finally came up with a design that wasn't teh sux0r and fixed the problem.

It's only an issue, I guess, with power windows--not sure if yours has those.

Dunno if you're talking to me, but I think all MkIV Jettas have power windows. Ours sure does. So... great. Another thing to break. sounds like something that could be re-engineered at home for improved reliability.

[Sharp11]

Hm. Lovely.

We're kind of torn. We both really like driving the car. Wear items are cheap. The car is easy to work on (I do all of our repairs, our cars will never see the inside of a dealership unless it's recall related). But all these little electrical gremlins are starting to scare me a bit.

FWIW, I have a few friends who have owned a Jetta 2.0, Golf 2.0 and Audi A4 1.8t and they've all had similar experiences.

I wanted to keep this car as a beater when TheGirl™ got her new car (probably next winter) but now I'm not so sure.

I wish VW would get it together, perhaps their troubles with corruption and too much fat has hurt them to no end, but man, nice products that just aren't reliable and properly supported are not acceptable these days. They've had years to get it right - I just don't understand what the company's problem is.

Here in Fairfield County CT, VW just closed yet another dealership further spreading out what's left of the network. My sister gave me a look at what women look for in cars when she put "convenience" at the top of the list; she went with the BMW for its loaner cars and six year warranty, VW has no loaners and apparently, no rental program.

Ed

[JST]

Dunno if you're talking to me, but I think all MkIV Jettas have power windows. Ours sure does. So... great. Another thing to break. sounds like something that could be re-engineered at home for improved reliability.

I think all Mk. IV turbos might have had them, but I had a colleague with a base model Mk. IV Jetta that had manual wind-up windows.

If they haven't broken yet, they may still in the future, but the good news is that the days of multiple replacements on the same window are probably done--once you fix it, it should stay fixed.

Don't forget that the 1.8 has a timing belt, which needs to be replaced eventually. :ack:

[John V]

Don't forget that the 1.8 has a timing belt, which needs to be replaced eventually. :ack:

Yeah. It's on the list. Maintenance schedule calls for a 105k replacement, but I know I'll end up doing it at 90k if we still have the car (that's looking less and less likely).

Ed, the times Marisa did have the car in for service and it was to take more than just a couple hours she asked for and received a loaner. So even if there isn't a loaner program per se, it's not unheard of to get one. This was when the car was still within the warranty period.

We have no interest in owning another BMW. Nothing they make these days interests us. She wants a Cooper S as a fun car and an Altima or Accord as a daily driver.

[bren]

We have no interest in owning another BMW....She wants a Cooper S
:?






:p

[John V]

:?






:p

The Mini isn't a BMW.

(And yes, I made the statement you quoted intentionally) :p

[rumatt]

YShe wants a Cooper S as a fun car and an Altima or Accord as a daily driver.

If I had a mini, I'd rather drive it every day than an accord.

If I had an accord as a DD, I'd rather have a more fun "fun" car than a mini.

[TD]

The MCS just isn't *that* fun, IMO. And why wouldn't it work as a daily driver?

[blee]

The MCS just isn't *that* fun, IMO. And why wouldn't it work as a daily driver?
Aw, she's a chick. What do they know about cars? :p

Seriously though, I kind of agree here. Either the Accord or the Cooper would make for good daily drivers, with the Accord getting the nod for versatility and the Cooper for fun. There are far more fun cars to be had for having fun. Or bikes, even. Not that I'd want one of those.

[John V]

The MCS just isn't *that* fun, IMO. And why wouldn't it work as a daily driver?

It won't work as a daily driver for her because her company pays her car payment for her work vehicle. The requirement is that it have four doors and the ability to seat four clients in reasonable comfort. A MINI does not meet that requirement. Lots of her clients are over 6' tall and she kind of feels like the Jetta is just barely big enough.

[blee]

It won't work as a daily driver for her because her company pays her car payment for her work vehicle. The requirement is that it have four doors and the ability to seat four clients in reasonable comfort. A MINI does not meet that requirement. Lots of her clients are over 6' tall and she kind of feels like the Jetta is just barely big enough.
How much of a payment are they willing to make? Acuras (I'm thinking of TLs) are excellent client-toting cars.

[clyde]

her because her company pays her car payment for her work vehicle. The requirement is that it have four doors and the ability to seat four clients in reasonable comfort. A MINI does not meet that requirement. Lots of her clients are over 6' tall and she kind of feels like the Jetta is just barely big enough.

Charger SRT-8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bren]

It won't work as a daily driver for her because her company pays her car payment for her work vehicle. The requirement is that it have four doors and the ability to seat four clients in reasonable comfort. A MINI does not meet that requirement. Lots of her clients are over 6' tall and she kind of feels like the Jetta is just barely big enough.
Don't they have a 4 door Mini in the works?

[John V]

Charger SRT-8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Marisa's rules: No automatics. Has to get decent gas mileage (her Jetta 1.8T gets 30MPG in city driving and 35 on extended highway trips). No SUVs. No minivans. The company gives her a $400 allowance per month but doesn't specify that it has to be spent on a car. The Jetta is almost paid off - once it is that $400 just goes in her pocket.

Another company rule: No "premium" brands. i.e. Acura, BMW, Lexus, M-B are not allowed. I think it's kind of ridiculous, but the reasoning is that the company does not want its sales people to present a "your money is buying me a fancy car" air.

IMO it's still better than companies that provide you with a company car (i.e. Taurus/Fusion/Impala). At least she can buy something she likes.

[John V]

Don't they have a 4 door Mini in the works?

That would probably defeat the purpose of the Mini in her mind which is, "those are cute and small."

[blee]

Well, whatever the "company car" becomes, the MCS does not offer a whole ton more fun for the money.

It is, however, cute and small. Hard to argue with that.

[John V]

Well, whatever the "company car" becomes, the MCS does not offer a whole ton more fun for the money.

I submit that a MCS is a whole ton more fun than either an Altima or Accord. And optioned how she would want it, they're damn cheap.

[TD]

Marisa's rules: No automatics. Has to get decent gas mileage (her Jetta 1.8T gets 30MPG in city driving and 35 on extended highway trips). No SUVs. No minivans. The company gives her a $400 allowance per month but doesn't specify that it has to be spent on a car. The Jetta is almost paid off - once it is that $400 just goes in her pocket.

Another company rule: No "premium" brands. i.e. Acura, BMW, Lexus, M-B are not allowed. I think it's kind of ridiculous, but the reasoning is that the company does not want its sales people to present a "your money is buying me a fancy car" air.

IMO it's still better than companies that provide you with a company car (i.e. Taurus/Fusion/Impala). At least she can buy something she likes.
You know, that set of criteria would cover a Mazdaspeed 6 nicely.

And it's a pretty impressive car which would probably negate the need for a separate "fun" car.

[lemming]

I submit that a MCS is a whole ton more fun than either an Altima or Accord. And optioned how she would want it, they're damn cheap.

funny. very funny. i think the MCS is fun, in both stock and tweaked configurations, but cheap is not what i'd call them. to me, they're expensive, particularly for hamster motor'd cars.

nice enough interior, though.

[John V]

You know, that set of criteria would cover a Mazdaspeed 6 nicely.

And it's a pretty impressive car which would probably negate the need for a separate "fun" car.

I thought so too, and I'll have to work with her on it. I also wanted her to consider the Legacy GT. Both seem like for regular old street driving they'd be very satisfying. And they both have the added benefit of being AWD. It doesn't snow a ton here but we do semi-regular trips to Pennsylvania and Ohio.

I really wanted her to use her car allowance to buy a ZHP but BMWs aren't allowed. She could probably get away with it but it's frowned upon and she treads lightly with that sort of thing.

JV

[John V]

funny. very funny. i think the MCS is fun, in both stock and tweaked configurations, but cheap is not what i'd call them. to me, they're expensive, particularly for hamster motor'd cars.

nice enough interior, though.

LOL. To you, anything less than seven liters is a hamster motor.

We optioned one out and it was $21,500 MSRP. To both of us, that's cheap. Her Jetta was $20,500 back in 2002 and she felt like she was getting a good deal when she bought it.

[lemming]

We optioned one out and it was $21,500 MSRP. To both of us, that's cheap. Her Jetta was $20,500 back in 2002 and she felt like she was getting a good deal when she bought it.

my opinion is way off base, but compared to the civic si, the new GTI, and the cobalt ss, for example, that still seems like a lot of money for a relatively slow car.

i know, people are going to come down hard and say that the MINI is in the next class up, but based on size and performance, it's still a hamster motored car and competes as such.

[John V]

my opinion is way off base, but compared to the civic si, the new GTI, and the cobalt ss, for example, that still seems like a lot of money for a relatively slow car.

The MCS is significantly smaller and lighter than any of those cars. And slow (mid 6's to 60) is not necessarily equated with "not fun" in our book.

[rumatt]

The company gives her a $400 allowance per month but doesn't specify that it has to be spent on a car.

In that case, it's equivalent to a $400/month raise, no?

Oh wait. If you can pocket the extra money, how can they force you to have 4 doors? Just say you want the money, and buy yourself a 2-door.

[John V]

In that case, it's equivalent to a $400/month raise, no?

Oh wait. If you can pocket the extra money, how can they force you to have 4 doors? Just say you want the money, and buy yourself a 2-door.

Part of her responsibilities include having a clean, well-kept, four-door car capable of carrying four clients. She doesn't have to spend the $400 on the car. She could hang onto the Jetta and spend the $400 on a Cooper if she wanted I suppose. But she'd have to keep the Jetta.

[Sharp11]

Part of her responsibilities include having a clean, well-kept, four-door car capable of carrying four clients. She doesn't have to spend the $400 on the car. She could hang onto the Jetta and spend the $400 on a Cooper if she wanted I suppose. But she'd have to keep the Jetta.

Accords are hard to beat, well made, nice to sit in (really nice seats), good driving position and decent handling, fantastic V6 and 4 cylinder engines - all for somewhere around the mid twenties.

How does Honda do it?

Ed

[bren]

How does Honda do it?

Low per worker costs.

[lemming]

Accords are hard to beat, well made, nice to sit in (really nice seats), good driving position and decent handling, fantastic V6 and 4 cylinder engines - all for somewhere around the mid twenties.

How does Honda do it?

Ed

completely agree. the accord is really a great car. (i really don't understand how camrys sell so well because the accord is so much more fun to drive).

[John V]

The accord four cylinder is high on the list. V6 doesn't make much sense (even though you can finally get it with a stick) because the four has plenty of punch for commuting and does better on gas for long trips.

I can't believe I just said that.

The Altima is on the list primarily because she likes the way it looks (proving that there is no accounting for taste) but also because my dad is on his second completely trouble-free Maxima, his wife has a trouble-free Maxima, her kids have trouble free Sentras and Altimas....

[Sharp11]

The accord four cylinder is high on the list. V6 doesn't make much sense (even though you can finally get it with a stick) because the four has plenty of punch for commuting and does better on gas for long trips.

I can't believe I just said that.

The Altima is on the list primarily because she likes the way it looks (proving that there is no accounting for taste) but also because my dad is on his second completely trouble-free Maxima, his wife has a trouble-free Maxima, her kids have trouble free Sentras and Altimas....

That's a tough one, trying to gently nudge one's wife ;)

I've driven the four cylinder new generation accord, an EX model, the engine is smooth and powerful. The only thing you get in the sixes is a bit more content (bigger tires etc.)

Altimas are nice cars, Nissan's upgraded the interiors a bit as a running change since the debut of this newest model.

Ed

[lemming]

That's a tough one, trying to gently nudge one's wife ;)

I've driven the four cylinder new generation accord, an EX model, the engine is smooth and powerful. The only thing you get in the sixes is a bit more content (bigger tires etc.)

Altimas are nice cars, Nissan's upgraded the interiors a bit as a running change since the debut of this newest model.

Ed

like JV, i, too, was shocked at how nicely the 4cyl. accord sedan drives. my opinion is that it still has a nicer interior than Nissan and toyota, also.

you know me, though. if it was my money, i'd just get the standard g6 with the base v6 and 4 doors and in that situation, feel better about the company's money going toward that car instead of an import.

[Sharp11]

like JV, i, too, was shocked at how nicely the 4cyl. accord sedan drives. my opinion is that it still has a nicer interior than Nissan and toyota, also.

you know me, though. if it was my money, i'd just get the standard g6 with the base v6 and 4 doors and in that situation, feel better about the company's money going toward that car instead of an import.

Agreed about the interior, Honda's upgraded the Accord for the new model year as well (along with the external facelift, of which I'm less enamored).

As far as the import thing, I don't know too much about where the G6 is made, but it shares its platform with the saab 9-3, so is it really a USA-only car? I doubt it. GM's a global car company, in fact, one could argue thay and Ford's most interesting products are found overseas.

Ed

[rumatt]

The accord four cylinder is high on the list. V6 doesn't make much sense (even though you can finally get it with a stick) because the four has plenty of punch for commuting and does better on gas for long trips.


The 4-cyl also has a timing chain, where the 6 has a belt that needs to be replaced more regularly. (at least this was true in 2004).

IMO the 4-cyl is the way to go. The V6 accord makes no sense to me at all. If I'm going to pay more than 20K(ish) money, I don't want an accord.

[Sharp11]

If I'm going to pay more than 20K(ish) money, I don't want an accord.

Really? Off the top of my head, I can't think of too many four-door front drive sedans that compete with it in right up to around 28k, I'd certainly take an Accord over the new and ungainly Passat.

Having said that, I'm always seeing them advertised, nicely equipped, for the low 20's.

Ed

[lemming]

Really? Off the top of my head, I can't think of too many four-door front drive sedans that compete with it in right up to around 28k, I'd certainly take an Accord over the new and ungainly Passat.

Having said that, I'm always seeing them advertised, nicely equipped, for the low 20's.

Ed

i forget when it happened, but awhile back, i started to realize that the passat with a v6, the camry with a v6 (and leather) and an accord with a v6 and leather were all 30k cars.....that blew my mind because you really only need spend 33k to get into a nice 3 series.

but i digress.

i'm with Ed on this one because i think for 28k, if one can get an accord v6 with leather and its peerless build quality, it's a no brainer. the contrarian and yankee in me, however, would still put forth the idea of the G6 GTP sedan, too, as really viable. it has a lot of things standard like leather, XM, heated seats and so forth and drives as nicely as the accord. even the interior of the g6 is surprisingly nice.

[John V]

like JV, i, too, was shocked at how nicely the 4cyl. accord sedan drives. my opinion is that it still has a nicer interior than Nissan and toyota, also.

you know me, though. if it was my money, i'd just get the standard g6 with the base v6 and 4 doors and in that situation, feel better about the company's money going toward that car instead of an import.

Accord's interior is definitely nicer than the Altima's. Resale is better too though I'm not sure it matters for a car like this (read: one we will drive for ten years).

G6 is an interesting option but I admit I'm prejudiced against American brands after the terrible experiences I've had with Fords and my general dislike of "GM-ness." I have a business trip coming up before too long and I'll be sure to hop in a G6 if there is one at the rental place. :D

[JST]

Accord's interior is definitely nicer than the Altima's. Resale is better too though I'm not sure it matters for a car like this (read: one we will drive for ten years).

G6 is an interesting option but I admit I'm prejudiced against American brands after the terrible experiences I've had with Fords and my general dislike of "GM-ness." I have a business trip coming up before too long and I'll be sure to hop in a G6 if there is one at the rental place. :D

I agree on the G6--and you don't need a GTP. The standard V6 has plenty of balls for commuting, and the rental G6 we had was surprisingly inoffensive and un-GM.

What about a Fusion/Milan? Everyone raves about the driving dynamics of that car, and it actually looks pretty nice (unlike, e.g., the ass-faced Accord/Camry). I doubt the quality is any worse than a VAG product, and it is likely substantially better.

[John V]

I agree on the G6--and you don't need a GTP. The standard V6 has plenty of balls for commuting, and the rental G6 we had was surprisingly inoffensive and un-GM.

What about a Fusion/Milan? Everyone raves about the driving dynamics of that car, and it actually looks pretty nice (unlike, e.g., the ass-faced Accord/Camry). I doubt the quality is any worse than a VAG product, and it is likely substantially better.

Can you get one with a stick?

As I understand it, the car is basically a Mazda 6. I would rather just have a Mazda 6 (that car is on the list as well). I'm not sure I'm ready to give Ford another chance.

[JST]

Can you get one with a stick?

As I understand it, the car is basically a Mazda 6. I would rather just have a Mazda 6 (that car is on the list as well). I'm not sure I'm ready to give Ford another chance.

No stick in the V6 (at least this year), but you can get a stick with the four in either the Milan or Fusion. From what I've read, the Fusion is a better drive than the 6; it's got some improvements in suspension tuning, though I don't know the details. To my eyes, the Fusion and Milan are a LOT better looking than the 6, which looks like something out of an anime cartoon from some angles.

OTOH, the 6 hatchback with a stick and V6 is a lot more appealing from a power/versatility standpoint. And the "Japanese" Mazda 6 is actually built by American workers, unlike the "American" Fusion. :?

[iateyourcheese]

Agreed about the interior, Honda's upgraded the Accord for the new model year as well (along with the external facelift, of which I'm less enamored).

As far as the import thing, I don't know too much about where the G6 is made, but it shares its platform with the saab 9-3, so is it really a USA-only car? I doubt it. GM's a global car company, in fact, one could argue thay and Ford's most interesting products are found overseas.

Ed

This whole import /domestic thing is so blurred these days. I could buy a Japanese car like the Accord (built in OH) or a Camry (TN I believe) or go domestic and buy a Ford Fusion (Mexico). But maybe I want the Japanese cousin of the Fusion, the Mazda6 (Detroit).

:confused:

EDIT: I see JST beat me to part of it.

[John V]

We love our 2002 1.8T Jetta but it's getting to be a bit of a pain in the butt from an electrical standpoint.

* Recalled 6/02 for Hazard Switch.
* Recalled 10/02 for coil packs
* Recalled 2/03 for driver's side heated seat.
* 5/04, FM reception starts to suck. Borrowed scan tool shows that FM antenna amplifier has died. Part is $300. We decide radio sucks and start listening to CDs and iPods.
* 6/04, CEL for "intermittent misfire, cylinder 4". Dealer wants $700 to clean the throttle body, MAF, manifold and valves (!!). Checked throttle body and MAF (both clean). Replaced plugs, problem went away.
* Recalled 10/04 for passenger's side heated seat
* 3/05, SRS light comes on. Borrowed scan tool and VWVortex.com to the rescue, a short wiring harness to the airbag which ohms out and looks fine is replaced anyway to the tune of $80, problem goes away. Still baffled about that one.
* 2/06 CEL for front O2 sensor heating circuit malfunction. (new sensor on order). Quick bit of research shows that they usually fail in warranty, we're just unlucky.
* 2/06 turn signal intermittent relay clicking (stalk isn't loose, and the signals don't actually come on). Quick bit of research shows that it's a very common problem. Solution is a $100 replacement of the turn signal stalk or a liberal application of contact cleaner.

Combine all that with the leaking driver's side weatherstripping (replaced under warranty and leaking again), the seized rear brakes at one year of ownership, the creaking front suspension (almost since new) and it makes me wonder. The car drives pretty well, but it's obvious the perceived quality of these cars is just that - perceived. We'll hang onto this one until I lose the ability to fix it on my own but we're not buying another VAG product. No way.

Bizz-ump.

* 8/06 - 75,000ish miles: Car makes a strange whirring noise on startup. I traced it to the smog pump. Typical bad-bearing noise. Followed shortly thereafter by CEL relating to low airflow from smog pump :lol: . VW wants $430 for a new pump. Low-mile used pump purchased from VWVortex member for $50, problem solved.

* 11/06 - 85,000ish miles: Notice strange vibration around corners. One of the exhaust hangers has rusted off the muffler, allowing the resonator to hit the frame. Temporary fix with coathanger until I can get to a welding shop.

* 11/06 - starter motor is grinding after the car is started. Appears to be a common problem with VW starters, esp in cold weather. Plan to remove and lube this weekend.

* 11/06 - Driver's side seat catches on fire, burns a stogie-sized hole in the seat velour and foam plus Marisa's leg. Seat heater element apparently went nuts and overheated. There is a recall in Canada for this, but the NHTSA says that there aren't grounds for a recall in the US. VwVortex reports over 200 owners with this problem. Seems to be a manufacturing defect in the heating element.

The only good news so far is that the factory front brakes still have lots of life left at 85,000 miles and a Blackstone report shows that even with 8,000 miles on the oil (Mobil 1 5W30), wear metals are at record lows - they recommend 9,000 miles for the next change. At least the motor is holding up... Otherwise, seriously - steer clear of VWs and Audis. Electrically, they are just complete pieces of junk. It's not just MkIV's reporting these problems... it's all across the board with VAG products.

[FC]

She wants a Cooper S as a fun car...

:+1

[lemming]

Bizz-ump.

* 8/06 - 75,000ish miles: Car makes a strange whirring noise on startup. I traced it to the smog pump. Typical bad-bearing noise. Followed shortly thereafter by CEL relating to low airflow from smog pump :lol: . VW wants $430 for a new pump. Low-mile used pump purchased from VWVortex member for $50, problem solved.

* 11/06 - 85,000ish miles: Notice strange vibration around corners. One of the exhaust hangers has rusted off the muffler, allowing the resonator to hit the frame. Temporary fix with coathanger until I can get to a welding shop.

* 11/06 - starter motor is grinding after the car is started. Appears to be a common problem with VW starters, esp in cold weather. Plan to remove and lube this weekend.

* 11/06 - Driver's side seat catches on fire, burns a stogie-sized hole in the seat velour and foam plus Marisa's leg. Seat heater element apparently went nuts and overheated. There is a recall in Canada for this, but the NHTSA says that there aren't grounds for a recall in the US. VwVortex reports over 200 owners with this problem. Seems to be a manufacturing defect in the heating element.

The only good news so far is that the factory front brakes still have lots of life left at 85,000 miles and a Blackstone report shows that even with 8,000 miles on the oil (Mobil 1 5W30), wear metals are at record lows - they recommend 9,000 miles for the next change. At least the motor is holding up... Otherwise, seriously - steer clear of VWs and Audis. Electrically, they are just complete pieces of junk. It's not just MkIV's reporting these problems... it's all across the board with VAG products.

it is an odd thing that i, too, have experienced multiple problems with ONLY my german made cars (MkIII jetta GLX, MkIII GTI to pile on here) and they, have mainly been electrical/electronic issues.

JST's reply to this in my general direction is: you don't keep your cars long enough to worry about this.

i guess he has a point. but VAG products still make me incredibly wary.

[John V]

The Cooper S only made sense if I could keep this no-good piece of VW crap running for another few years so it could be used as the company car.

If it continues to set fire to itself and generally suck, the Cooper thing ain't gonna happen.

[lemming]

The Cooper S only made sense if I could keep this no-good piece of VW crap running for another few years so it could be used as the company car.

If it continues to set fire to itself and generally suck, the Cooper thing ain't gonna happen.

your (or hers, more accurately) demonstrates the issues with the German auto industry: decent engines, good chassis designs....but a huge letdown by their OEM suppliers in terms of electrical is still a reality.

and it doesn't appear to get any better before it gets worse given VAG's relentless drive to reduce costs.

[equ]

My a4 had less electrical problems in 5 years (zero) than the 330's I had for 2 (each had at least two). From my datapoint, the late e46 is roughly the same as a late b5a4.

That said, I'd never buy a Jetta in the first place (while the golf exists as a cuter more functional version that happens to be built in Germany)...

[John V]

That said, I'd never buy a Jetta in the first place (while the golf exists as a cuter more functional version that happens to be built in Germany)...

The Jetta has more usable space than the Golf if you intend to carry people and their stuff. The trunk is positively huge for a car of its size.

I think we are particularly unlucky with this car and you may have been particularly lucky with yours. If the reporting rates on the boards are any indication, none of this stuff discriminates between the VW / Audi cars.

[Sharp11]

The Jetta has more usable space than the Golf if you intend to carry people and their stuff. The trunk is positively huge for a car of its size.

I think we are particularly unlucky with this car and you may have been particularly lucky with yours. If the reporting rates on the boards are any indication, none of this stuff discriminates between the VW / Audi cars.

John,

Time to ditch that car, in my experience, these things just get worse over time.

Ed

[Doug]

Welcome to VW ownership. My family had a Scirocco that had non stop electrical issues. I heard it was one of the most recalled cars ever.

[FC]

Let me just say that I agree 100% with TD on the Mazdaspeed6 thing. It seems perfect to me.

[John V]

The MZ6 is just way too expensive. The real-world gas mileage isn't thrilling either. Same complaints about the Legacy GT.

[FC]

The MZ6 is just way too expensive. The real-world gas mileage isn't thrilling either. Same complaints about the Legacy GT.

I guess that's true about price, though I think it's good enough over an Accord to justify it's price, personally. The maintenance/fuel costs are a very real issue, though.

[John V]

"Better" to you and I doesn't necessarily mean "better" to her. The Jetta is plenty fast for her. Maintenance on a MS6 is going to be quite a bit higher. It has bigger brakes, bigger tires, and will wear them out more quickly. It uses more gas. It's more expensive to buy. It's faster, but she won't care.

I think the MS3 actually would be pretty close to ideal, if she can wrap her brain around the fact that it's about the same size inside and out as the MkIV Jetta. Right now she's thinks she needs a slightly bigger car for some of her taller clients. So that led us to Altimas and Accords.

[Theo]

My a4 had less electrical problems in 5 years (zero) than the 330's I had for 2 (each had at least two). From my datapoint, the late e46 is roughly the same as a late b5a4.

That said, I'd never buy a Jetta in the first place (while the golf exists as a cuter more functional version that happens to be built in Germany)...

My experiance is that the E46 got better with time.

My new at the time 01 330ci was a nightmare with little problems and always in the shop for something or other.

At almost 15K on my 05 M3 it has had zero issues so far.

My now almost 8yo E36 M3 is an all together different story right now. I realize its almost 8 years old but latly every time I fix one thing something else goes wrong. Not to keen on that car right now.

My only experiance with a VAG product was an 83 black/red rabbit GTI. I still miss that car. I have to say though the interior was falling apart with only 30K miles on it.

[John V]

Off topic I suppose...

Surprisingly just going by the numbers the Mazdaspeed 3 has more space inside than the Jetta. More luggage room, too. The rear headroom is 1.5" more, rear legroom is 3" greater, and rear shoulder room is 1.5" greater. Luggage capacity is four cubic feet greater. I couldn't find the invoice price on edmunds for the Mazdaspeed version but based on other 3 models it should be right around $21,500.

I think she would really like it - just have to convince her to go drive one. :eeps:

[JST]

Off topic I suppose...

Surprisingly just going by the numbers the Mazdaspeed 3 has more space inside than the Jetta. More luggage room, too. The rear headroom is 1.5" more, rear legroom is 3" greater, and rear shoulder room is 1.5" greater. Luggage capacity is four cubic feet greater. I couldn't find the invoice price on edmunds for the Mazdaspeed version but based on other 3 models it should be right around $21,500.

I think she would really like it - just have to convince her to go drive one. :eeps:

Careful on that luggage space figure, though--does that count all of the space behind the rear seats, including the essentially unusable chunk of air above the rear seat line? Hatchback luggage space figures can be deceptive.

[ZBB]

John and Fernando...
My wife is selling her '02 MCS... We'll be listing it in the next week or so (only about 5 months late... but that's another story).

Here's the details:
- Chili Red w/ white bonnet stripes.
- Black leather sports seats
- ~44k miles (~5k in the last year).
- Almost fully optioned (no nav, Xenons or upgraded stereo as they were not avail when we got ours (Jul '02 delivery). It has heated seats, sunroof, automatic climate control, fog lights, 17" wheels.

The tires are a little over a year old and still in great shape. We also just replaced the Battery (in Sept).

The car is overall in great shape, although it does need a new front bumper -- only because she was hit by a flying 2x4 one night, and it hit right in the driver's side fog light. The light still works, but the impact broke the retaining clips, and the clips are molded into the bumper. There is also a small crack in the bumper near the light. The estimates we've had to repair are ~$650 (the bumper is ~$200, another ~$200 to get it painted, plus the labor to remove the old and install the new) -- it never bothered us enough to get if fixed.

Its been a great car. It has had a couple of minor service problems, only one of which is recurring and is a common problem with BMW's in general:
- a couple minor electrical gremlins in the first 6 months of ownership that only occurred once and could not be diagnosed. Most severe was a complete electrical shutdown one time when my wife was accelerating out of a stop light -- the car completely shut down, and she pushed the clutch in and pulled over. It started right back up however, and has never reoccurred.
- We lost one of the chrome tailpipe covers in the first 6 months... replaced under warranty (probably not properly tightened at the factory)
- Coolant leaks that required the coolant tank to be replaced a couple times. The tank would crack, and slowly leak coolant when parked. Its been fine now for 2.5+ years (This was a common problem -- so I'm guessing a new design now).
- CEL light with a coupled with a loss of power (slow acceleration). This required a tow into the shop, and replacement of engine sensors.

We'll probably list it for $16-$16.5k (Edmunds shows the private party resale over $17k, but we will reduce it for the bumper replacement).

Either of you guys interested?

[FC]

John and Fernando...
My wife is selling her '02 MCS... We'll be listing it in the next week or so (only about 5 months late... but that's another story).

Here's the details:
- Chili Red w/ white bonnet stripes.
- Black leather sports seats
- ~44k miles (~5k in the last year).
- Almost fully optioned (no nav, Xenons or upgraded stereo as they were not avail when we got ours (Jul '02 delivery). It has heated seats, sunroof, automatic climate control, fog lights, 17" wheels.

The tires are a little over a year old and still in great shape. We also just replaced the Battery (in Sept).

The car is overall in great shape, although it does need a new front bumper -- only because she was hit by a flying 2x4 one night, and it hit right in the driver's side fog light. The light still works, but the impact broke the retaining clips, and the clips are molded into the bumper. There is also a small crack in the bumper near the light. The estimates we've had to repair are ~$650 (the bumper is ~$200, another ~$200 to get it painted, plus the labor to remove the old and install the new) -- it never bothered us enough to get if fixed.

Its been a great car. It has had a couple of minor service problems, only one of which is recurring and is a common problem with BMW's in general:
- a couple minor electrical gremlins in the first 6 months of ownership that only occurred once and could not be diagnosed. Most severe was a complete electrical shutdown one time when my wife was accelerating out of a stop light -- the car completely shut down, and she pushed the clutch in and pulled over. It started right back up however, and has never reoccurred.
- We lost one of the chrome tailpipe covers in the first 6 months... replaced under warranty (probably not properly tightened at the factory)
- Coolant leaks that required the coolant tank to be replaced a couple times. The tank would crack, and slowly leak coolant when parked. Its been fine now for 2.5+ years (This was a common problem -- so I'm guessing a new design now).
- CEL light with a coupled with a loss of power (slow acceleration). This required a tow into the shop, and replacement of engine sensors.

We'll probably list it for $16-$16.5k (Edmunds shows the private party resale over $17k, but we will reduce it for the bumper replacement).

Either of you guys interested?

Short answer, no. It's just not the right time. An MCS is in the ~'09 timeframe. By then we'd probably get a new-gen MCS. This would be a 3rd car, and there are more important things to take care of first.

Anyway thanks for te heads up and good luck with selling it.:D

[John V]

MCS won't fit a couple of six footers comfortably in the rear. If it did she would already own one.

[TD]

Let me just say that I agree 100% with TD on the Mazdaspeed6 thing. It seems perfect to me.
I had to go back and find my post to figure out what you were agreeing with.

Wow, that was a while ago...

[FC]

I had to go back and find my post to figure out what you were agreeing with.

Wow, that was a while ago...

Holy shit, I just realized this thread is not new!:eek: :lol: :o

...I was thinking, WTF, TD posted that only a few posts back.:? :lol:

I just don't remember this thread at all.

[undefined]

An MCS is in the ~'09 timeframe.


:lol:

[FC]

:lol:

Why is this funny?:dunno:

[ZBB]

MCS won't fit a couple of six footers comfortably in the rear. If it did she would already own one.

My wife is 6' tall, and it is almost impossible to fit anyone behind the driver. Its really a great car for no more than 3 people...

Just thought I'd mention the avail car :D I'm sure it will sell fairly quick once we actually list it...

[John V]

Bizz-ump.

* 8/06 - 75,000ish miles: Car makes a strange whirring noise on startup. I traced it to the smog pump. Typical bad-bearing noise. Followed shortly thereafter by CEL relating to low airflow from smog pump :lol: . VW wants $430 for a new pump. Low-mile used pump purchased from VWVortex member for $50, problem solved.

* 11/06 - 85,000ish miles: Notice strange vibration around corners. One of the exhaust hangers has rusted off the muffler, allowing the resonator to hit the frame. Temporary fix with coathanger until I can get to a welding shop.

* 11/06 - starter motor is grinding after the car is started. Appears to be a common problem with VW starters, esp in cold weather. Plan to remove and lube this weekend.

* 11/06 - Driver's side seat catches on fire, burns a stogie-sized hole in the seat velour and foam plus Marisa's leg. Seat heater element apparently went nuts and overheated. There is a recall in Canada for this, but the NHTSA says that there aren't grounds for a recall in the US. VwVortex reports over 200 owners with this problem. Seems to be a manufacturing defect in the heating element.

The only good news so far is that the factory front brakes still have lots of life left at 85,000 miles and a Blackstone report shows that even with 8,000 miles on the oil (Mobil 1 5W30), wear metals are at record lows - they recommend 9,000 miles for the next change. At least the motor is holding up... Otherwise, seriously - steer clear of VWs and Audis. Electrically, they are just complete pieces of junk. It's not just MkIV's reporting these problems... it's all across the board with VAG products.'

Been a while since I updated this. Front brakes were shot at 115k, which isn't really too bad. Rear brakes look like they'll last until 150k at least. It's at 128k as we speak.

3/08 - Starter motor started grinding again. I just bit the bullet and ordered a new one. It was cheap at least. Didn't bother taking the old one apart again. I'm sure it's just worn out.

3/08 - Driver's window has stopped wanting to go down, except in "express down" mode. Turns out the switch contacts corrode and stop working. Electrical problems in a VW? HA!

5/08 - Wipers occasionally won't wipe. They lock up halfway through the stroke. Liberal application of Rain-X, problem solved.

5/08 - Alarm system fails to recognize when driver's door has been opened. This is kind of annoying, since it activates the "lights on" warning, it plays into how the alarm works, etc. Apparently there is an electrical module deep in the door that fails. Shocking!! It takes on average six hours to replace. Sigh.

I cannot fathom how much it would have cost us to keep this car on the road if we had to take it to a shop for all of this stuff. Fortunately, parts are cheap and my labor is free :ack: But it is paid off, it gets 28-32 MPG everywhere, and nothing major has stopped working yet.

[equ]

Holy s$%t! I have another reason to respect you if you've been able to fix all of that.

[lemming]

'

Been a while since I updated this. Front brakes were shot at 115k, which isn't really too bad. Rear brakes look like they'll last until 150k at least. It's at 128k as we speak.

3/08 - Starter motor started grinding again. I just bit the bullet and ordered a new one. It was cheap at least. Didn't bother taking the old one apart again. I'm sure it's just worn out.

3/08 - Driver's window has stopped wanting to go down, except in "express down" mode. Turns out the switch contacts corrode and stop working. Electrical problems in a VW? HA!

5/08 - Wipers occasionally won't wipe. They lock up halfway through the stroke. Liberal application of Rain-X, problem solved.

5/08 - Alarm system fails to recognize when driver's door has been opened. This is kind of annoying, since it activates the "lights on" warning, it plays into how the alarm works, etc. Apparently there is an electrical module deep in the door that fails. Shocking!! It takes on average six hours to replace. Sigh.

I cannot fathom how much it would have cost us to keep this car on the road if we had to take it to a shop for all of this stuff. Fortunately, parts are cheap and my labor is free :ack: But it is paid off, it gets 28-32 MPG everywhere, and nothing major has stopped working yet.

you make me wonder about the MINI long term --it simply has to be worse than a VAG product.

i don't find the issues you've encountered all that bad, actually.

[John V]

you make me wonder about the MINI long term --it simply has to be worse than a VAG product.

i don't find the issues you've encountered all that bad, actually.

:lol:

[John V]

143,000 miles (ish). I fix the wipers. New wiper motor and housing. Not expensive... $70 or so. Problem solved.

152,000 miles (ish). At 85MPH on the Ohio turnpike, the LCD clock (on the tachometer) and the LCD odometer (on the speedo) both go blank. About fifteen miles later, they light back up.

Keeping the car around 80MPH the entire way, I got 34MPG.

It needs tie rods, and probably a second set of ball joints. And the clutch is starting to feel soft. But other than that, it still drives great.