PDA

View Full Version : Looking ahead in autocross


rumatt
02-11-2006, 09:40 PM
My biggest problem in autox is looking ahead. So this winter I've been "practicing" while driving on the street. When driving around corners, I try to look across the corner.

I find that I am definitely better setup for the end of the corner, but I am much more likely to screw up my positioning earlier in the corner. I've now almost curbed my wheels twice. My natural tendencey is to move too far to the inside. I try to "drive where I'm looking", but in a straighter line than I should.

Here's an example:

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=560&stc=1&d=1139711821

Assume that gate 5 is at a tricky angle and is very important to get right.

A beginning autocrosser won't look at gate 5 until after passing through gate 3. An advanced autocrosser will look at 5 well before 3 and use it to determine how to enter 3.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I try hard to look at 5, but in doing so, I lose mental focus on gate 3. I totally guess at the car positioning and am very likely to hit one of the cones.

How do others avoid this? Is it just practice? Is it a peripheral vision thing? Am I peripherally challenged?

clyde
02-11-2006, 10:09 PM
n00b blather

This what you do:

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=561&stc=1&d=1139713583

This is what fast people do:

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=563&stc=1&d=1139713731

Any more n00b questions? :dunno:

rumatt
02-11-2006, 10:11 PM
n00b blather

:lol: :lol: :lol:

rumatt
02-11-2006, 10:15 PM
How does one "visualize placement and heading at that location" without looking there.


Do you scan back and forth?

rumatt
02-11-2006, 10:23 PM
Photo added for clarity. It must be the big eyes that help you.


http://forums.carmudgeons.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=564&stc=1&d=1139714596

Pinecone
02-11-2006, 10:57 PM
I use the term looking through the corner to look from where you are, through how you get there, to where you want to be. And street/track that means look towards the apex, but seeing the track out point. So the sequence goes look to turn in point until stabilized under braking, then look to apex, seeing the trackout point, once you turn in, look at track out, but still seeing the apex.

The other thing is when you look that far ahead, yo uhave to visualize what attitude you want the car to be when you get there. That will help get it right for your example.

And lastly, use your peripheral vision. Just becaus eyou are looking at gate 5 doesn't mean you can't see the intermediate gates if needed.

bren
02-11-2006, 11:05 PM
This is what fast people do:

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=563&stc=1&d=1139713731

Any more n00b questions? :dunno:
Actually, I think fast people would be much closer to the inside of 3 and 4 ;)

clyde
02-11-2006, 11:06 PM
Actually, I think fast people would be much closer to the inside of 3 and 4 ;)
think showcase turn on the North course last year...tight was slow ;)

rumatt
02-11-2006, 11:13 PM
think showcase turn on the North course last year...tight was slow ;)

If I remember correctly, the evo instructor who analyzed that segment of the course said you should stay tight. :bustingup

I stayed tight.

Even the wife noticed that "all the fast guys seem to be going wider there than you are." :lol: :cry:

BahnBaum
02-11-2006, 11:19 PM
If I remember correctly, the evo instructor who analyzed that segment of the course said you should stay tight. :bustingup

I stayed tight.

Even the wife noticed that "all the fast guys seem to be going wider there than you are." :lol: :cry:

Isn't she also the one who today said, "Cop!"?

Alex

rumatt
02-11-2006, 11:23 PM
Isn't she also the one who today said, "Cop!"?


No. she said, "COP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

bren
02-11-2006, 11:23 PM
One thing to remember is that you get to walk the course ;)

During the walk you should realize this important aspect and be thinking of what you need to do and where the car will be, this way as you approach you have some ingrained idea of what to do.

While coming down the straight into 3 you need to be scanning 3,5,3,5,4,5.

bren
02-11-2006, 11:25 PM
think showcase turn on the North course last year...tight was slow ;)
True. But let's not confuse Matt. :p

rumatt
02-11-2006, 11:28 PM
One thing to remember is that you get to walk the course ;)

Yes, definitely.

But, that doesn't mean you don't look as well. You may have more speed than expected, or be in a different position than expected, etc.

I think the key is that you're not focusing ahead to try to discover what the course is like; instead you're just glancing to re-inforce what you are already expecting. Unfortunately, I have trouble this.

In terms of scanning back and forth, it seems to be personal style. Some evo instructors said "absolutely do not scan". Others say they scan all the time. :dunno:

And street/track that means look towards the apex, but seeing the track out point.

Yes. I need to work on this.

rumatt
02-11-2006, 11:32 PM
PS

I'm pretending that I'm the only retard that has this problem, which is fine... but I think it's more pervasive than most people think. Anyone who is not a "guaranteed trophier" at national likely has this problem to some degree. :dunno:

Negotiating a difficult section while some portion of your brain is processing and planning the next section is hard.

bren
02-11-2006, 11:35 PM
I think the key is that you're not focusing ahead to try to discover what the course is like; instead you're just glancing to re-inforce what you are already expecting. Unfortunately, I have trouble this.

Correct.

I've been fastest when I take the time to distance myself from everyone and sit in the car, close my eyes, and run through the course full speed in my head. I know I need to look at a map or walk it again if I have to think at all about the course.

blee
02-11-2006, 11:44 PM
Dude, be safe. Use your helmet.

http://www.carmudgeons.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=565&d=1139719448

BahnBaum
02-11-2006, 11:51 PM
PS

I'm pretending that I'm the only retard that has this problem, which is fine... but I think it's more pervasive than most people think. Anyone who is not a "guaranteed trophier" at national likely has this problem to some degree. :dunno:

Negotiating a difficult section while some portion of your brain is processing and planning the next section is hard.

I really struggle with this also. But I think half the battle is knowing that you struggle with it.

Alex

BahnBaum
02-11-2006, 11:53 PM
Correct.

I've been fastest when I take the time to distance myself from everyone and sit in the car, close my eyes, and run through the course full speed in my head. I know I need to look at a map or walk it again if I have to think at all about the course.

Yeah, I remember interrupting you once or twice before I realized what you were doing. Now I stay away when you're sitting in your car looking like you're doing some sort of swami thing.

Alex

rumatt
02-11-2006, 11:53 PM
.
http://forums.carmudgeons.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=566&stc=1&d=1139719978

Sharp11
02-12-2006, 12:20 AM
How does one "visualize placement and heading at that location" without looking there.


Do you scan back and forth?

The courses I ran on last year were much too large to be looking that far ahead, if you did, all you'd have seen was a sea of cones.

For me, a good run was relatively easy after knowing the course cold, the same way I can blow over changes (improvise a melody over various chord structures) when I know a tune (song) front to back, inside out. If you get lost in a jazz tune, it's usually because you don't know it well enough.

The jazz musician thinks ahead, but maybe only a measure or two, if you're thinking too far ahead, you'll miss vital harmonic material inbetween - these are the gates 3 and 4 Clyde points out.

So, at least for me, memory is the most important thing, then I look ahead just to keep myself focused on where I'm going and I drive hard to get there, but I should never be surprised when I get there.

Ed

bren
02-12-2006, 12:29 AM
The courses I ran on last year were much too large to be looking that far ahead
No such thing.

rumatt
02-12-2006, 12:31 AM
the same way I can blow over changes (improvise a melody over various chord structures) when I know a tune (song) front to back, inside out.


http://forums.carmudgeons.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=567&stc=1&d=1139722273

clyde
02-12-2006, 12:39 AM
The courses I ran on last year were much too large to be looking that far ahead, if you did, all you'd have seen was a sea of cones.

If all you'd have seen was a sea of cones, you didn't know the course cold...certainly not well enough ot have figured out the five important cones.

Sharp11
02-12-2006, 01:04 AM
If all you'd have seen was a sea of cones, you didn't know the course cold...certainly not well enough ot have figured out the five important cones.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by the five most important cones, but then, it's late here and my mind's a fuzz box after a day of working on a Linux-powered Korg Oasys workstation (what a machine!!!). I ordered one.

I could "see" the gates in my mind, but on CART's large courses, there's no way you could see, physically, many (if not most) of the gates that were five gates ahead. Cart's courses were often six-tenths to just under a mile in length with gates spread far apart - these were more like road courses than true autox set-ups.

Anyway, I did have a few courses I didn't know too well or worse yet, I started out knowing them but then forgot parts of them as fatique set in.

I ran one autox at Poughkeepsie last summer, they ran on an airport runway, same course up and back, long and narrow - this presented other challenges.

There's a another CT club, FCSCC, which runs the most traditional autox's, here, as I recall, I would physically see most all the course, but these were small 30 to 40 second courses very tightly wound. Still, there I was looking comfortably three gates ahead and planning my entrances.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I just can't recall being able to see that far ahead (physically) at Cart, I'll revisit it in the spring.

EDIT:

Frankly, the biggest problem I had with autox was spending an entire Sunday, some ten hours from awakening to getting back home and only getting in five 50 second or so runs while fending off the high temps and boredom inbetween. I just couldn't maintain my focus over a whole day and I'm not certain I can overcome this. This year it's test and tune days (unlimited runs) and track events but mostly, it's the top down Z club drives I'm really looking forward to, guess I am enjoying middle age!!

Ed

BahnBaum
02-12-2006, 01:13 AM
With me, and I'm a slow n00b, I try to identify the key cones that I need to look ahead to while I'm walking. (Actually, the best way for me to identify them is to walk with someone who's more experienced.) It's not necessarily the 5th cone, or the 3rd cone, or the 7th cone. Which cone it is that I identify as a look ahead cone is dictated by the course itself.

Alex

rumatt
02-12-2006, 01:18 AM
With me, and I'm a slow n00b, I try to identify the key cones that I need to look ahead to while I'm walking. (Actually, the best way for me to identify them is to walk with someone who's more experienced.) It's not necessarily the 5th cone, or the 3rd cone, or the 7th cone. Which cone it is that I identify as a look ahead cone is dictated by the course itself.


You see, I skip all that. Before starting, I just visualize my car's placement and heading across the finish line, and the path through the whole course to reach that location with proper placement follows naturally.

:speechle:

Sharp11
02-12-2006, 01:33 AM
With me, and I'm a slow n00b, I try to identify the key cones that I need to look ahead to while I'm walking. (Actually, the best way for me to identify them is to walk with someone who's more experienced.) It's not necessarily the 5th cone, or the 3rd cone, or the 7th cone. Which cone it is that I identify as a look ahead cone is dictated by the course itself.

Alex

I do that too. I even use the course's light poles, trees, pot-holes or whatever else is out there as a guide.

Ed

Andy
02-12-2006, 07:57 PM
While coming down the straight into 3 you need to be scanning 3,5,3,5,4,5.
Yep, I'm a scanner too.

My head would be turned, looking directly at 5, my primary focus would be on 5, but my eyes would be rapidly scanning to 3. About 10 feet before I got to 3, my head would turn and my primary focus would be on 6 and then I’d scan to 5 like I was just doing to 3.

I use the method of always putting my primary attention 2 key cones ahead and scanning back to the previous key cone. I use my first couple course walks to pick out the key cones and then do a couple more walks to determine when my attention switches to the next key cone.


No offense Ed... but I don’t think this is the right thing to be doing.
I even use the course's light poles, trees, pot-holes or whatever else is out there as a guide.

Ed

John V
02-12-2006, 08:02 PM
Actually, I think fast people would be much closer to the inside of 3 and 4 ;)

Cone three definitely. Cone four, I doubt it. I have had much better luck picking where I want to enter and where I want to exit and connecting those two points with a smooth arc which isn't necessarily the tight line.

There is no such thing as a course too big to look far ahead on.

Pinecone
02-12-2006, 11:52 PM
Heck, even on road courses where terrain doesn't allow you to see as far ahead as you would like, you are still lookign that way, and using other visual cues as to where to be looking to get where you want to go.

And you can't think too far ahead.

I would say one big thing with this example is if you have your car attitude (direction) and position at gate 5 worked out, it looks to me that the other gates don't really matter. Only if the smooth curve you would take has to be modified due to thos egates (wider or pinched). Sort of what John V was saying. But just because you aren't looking at those gates, doesn't mean you don't see them in your peripheral vision to keep you within them.

And I find if I am slow on a particular day, I am not looking and thinking far enough ahead. Getting my head and mind in front of the car gets me faster every time. And getting my mind and eyes furhter ahead, gets me even faster.

rumatt
02-13-2006, 10:15 AM
And you can't think too far ahead.

Generalizations are always wrong. ;)


I would say one big thing with this example is if you have your car attitude (direction) and position at gate 5 worked out, it looks to me that the other gates don't really matter.

Yeah. I wanted to come up with something where gate 3 made you slightly alter your ideal path into 5. My example isn't great.

Andy, interesting to know you're a scanner too. I've tried not scanning based on the advice of a number of people (trying to do a more continuous "see it all" look ahead kind of thing)... and it hasn't worked well for me. I'm going to put some more effort into scanning like you said, and see how it goes.

bren
02-13-2006, 10:34 AM
Andy, interesting to know you're a scanner too...I'm going to put some more effort into scanning like you said, and see how it goes.
So I guess I need a bigger trophy before you'll take my advice? :ack: :p

Plaz
02-13-2006, 10:56 AM
So I guess I need a bigger trophy before you'll take my advice? :ack: :p

Or a bigger sausage.

John V
02-13-2006, 11:06 AM
So I guess I need a bigger trophy before you'll take my advice? :ack: :p

Maybe you have to start eating the "fancy bread" before he'll listen to you. :dunno:

Sharp11
02-13-2006, 11:18 AM
So I guess I need a bigger trophy before you'll take my advice? :ack: :p

I've got three big trophies (and just nominated for a fourth) which actually mean something and no one listens to me either.

Get used to it :)

Ed

BahnBaum
02-13-2006, 11:20 AM
just nominated for a fourth

How do I get "nominated" for an autox trophy Ed. That's an avenue of getting one that I hadn't investigated.

;)

Alex

Plaz
02-13-2006, 11:29 AM
I've got three big trophies (and just nominated for a fourth) which actually mean something and no one listens to me either.

Get used to it :)

Ed


I'd listen to you if you recommended one harmonic substitution over another... or one voicing, or giving the melody to the strings over the horns, or something like that.

But I guess it would be that I trust your ear and experience, rather than the fact you have those awards.

As impressive as it is (and it is impressive) that you have those awards, I still think for the most part, perhaps even more than most entertainment awards, the Grammys are a steaming pile of meaningless bat guano.

Not unlike a degree from Berklee. :) It's what you learned, not whether you have the paper or not.... and it's what you hear, not whether you have an award or not.

Sharp11
02-13-2006, 11:46 AM
I'd listen to you if you recommended one harmonic substitution over another... or one voicing, or giving the melody to the strings over the horns, or something like that.

But I guess it would be that I trust your ear and experience, rather than the fact you have those awards.

As impressive as it is (and it is impressive) that you have those awards, I still think for the most part, perhaps even more than most entertainment awards, the Grammys are a steaming pile of meaningless bat guano.

Not unlike a degree from Berklee. :) It's what you learned, not whether you have the paper or not.... and it's what you hear, not whether you have an award or not.

I agree, but I don't have grammy awards.

It's not the awards that matter, it's the ability to survive and prosper in a field that's full of land mines and the possibility of failure at every turn.

Just to get to the point where people will give you awards means you've beat the system. It's like navigating the most gut-busting autox you could imagine.

Still, no one listen to you, even when you give them career advice, etc., they actually believe it is about the harmonic substitutions, etc., .......it's not, not by a long shot.

That's what I meant.

Ed

Plaz
02-13-2006, 12:09 PM
I agree, but I don't have grammy awards.

It's not the awards that matter, it's the ability to survive and prosper in a field that's full of land mines and the possibility of failure at every turn.

Just to get to the point where people will give you awards means you've beat the system. It's like navigating the most gut-busting autox you could imagine.

Still, no one listen to you, even when you give them career advice, etc., they actually believe it is about the harmonic substitutions, etc., .......it's not, not by a long shot.

That's what I meant.

Ed


Oops. :eek: :eeps:

Sorry... right, you have emmys. That's even more impressive. Sorry for being a dolt.

Your point is well taken.

Sharp11
02-13-2006, 12:43 PM
Oops. :eek: :eeps:

Sorry... right, you have emmys. That's even more impressive. Sorry for being a dolt.

Your point is well taken.

That's ok, I hate the grammys, too. With the Emmys, you actually DO have to be good.

It's all subjective, like ajudicated sports; figure skating, diving etc.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with autox, so back to the subject.

Ed

BahnBaum
02-13-2006, 12:44 PM
Anyway, none of this has anything to do with autox, so back to the subject.

Right.

So what did you get the emmy's in? Link?

Alex

Sharp11
02-13-2006, 12:57 PM
Right.

So what did you get the emmy's in? Link?

Alex

check your PM

Pinecone
02-14-2006, 10:10 PM
The other thing is, if a gate requires you to alter your line, it is not longer a gate to not look at. The idea is to ignore gates that do not make a difference in your line.

Did I say I scan? I don't think so, I look at one thing, but use pereipehral vision to see other things. I do progress my looking point as I am I set up for the previous look point and no longer need to look at it. ie, once I am set up braking, I WILL make the turn in point at about the right speed, so time to be looking further ahead.